Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? Is RepRap now too old for new ideas or variations on existing ideas? Is it better to have new printers with bugs, than hone an existing good design further? Why can't RepRap have both? Inherent in the meaning of "inNOVAtion" is "NEW". Does RepRap have too many members, so that new members need not apply? Unless the new members are willing to suffer abuse and be trashed for putting forth their ideas. I want to know. For the past week, since I posted my variation of a quick build RepRap Prusa Mendel on Kickstarter, a few (very few) very vocal members have taken to trashing it constantly on any website they can be allowed on. If you don't like it fine, you can even say so. Voice your opinions, I don't mind. If I think the opinion is valid, I will make changes. If I don't agree, such is life. If you like it, great, everyone appreciates encouragement. But Early Tuesday morning, one of the very vocal members HACKED MY THINGIVERSE.COM ACCOUNT under my name beekeeper and added stuff that shouldn't be there. This isn't healthy for any community, to shout down all differing ideas instead of using logic to debate the pros an cons. No one should have their account hacked, their ideas stolen, their reputation slandered, and their intelect demeaned. It started on June 1, 2012, Anthony D. Morris Jr of Sorrento, Florida (AKA ThantiK - a lot of RepRap members know him) found my version of the Prusa Mendel and started trying to figure it out. Fine, he could have asked why I did some things. I am an engineer, we like questions and will tell the whole story. Then on June 2nd, he copied my copyrighted picture of the Vision 3D Printer on Thingiverse, claimed it as his own so that he could trashed my Kickstarter campaign in order to divert any skeptics to Sublime's. He posted it here on Thingiverse: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:24070 . I don't think this is Sublime's idea. Either way, it has been a reoccurring theme for the past 5 days. BTW, his version of my sidewalls is structurally unsound, or at the least far less sound. You have to understand structure in order to know what to leave. (As a side note, I think Sublime's design is good and well thought out. I wish him well with his Indiegogo campaign.) On Anthony D Morris Jr.'s Google+ page (at [url=https://plus.google.com/104012815742569035024#104012815742569035024/posts]Anthony D. Morris Jr's Google+ Page[/url]. He admits "Purely because I'm an asshole: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:24070". At least he has went with his strong suit, even if it took him both hands to find it. I didn't find out about any of this until yesterday, when someone told me that someone else was trash talking my design [url=http://www.reddit.com/r/Reprap/comments/uji1y/optimized_prusa_w_dual_extrusion_for_1025/]here[/url] on Reddit.com. Anthony stated, [i]"Then just buy 2 arcol hot ends. This kickstarter is for suckers only... There is not a 50% reduction in parts. The guy is an idiot and using z rod constraints, which will INTRODUCE z wobble, not get rid of it. He basically wants 25,000 for what amounts to 2 acrylic triangles. Anyone who buys into this is really gullable... "[/i] When I responded, I got even more with: [i]"Just because the extruder comes assembled, doesn't mean it's "one piece instead of 40+ pieces" - it's still 40+ pieces, it's just been put together for you! And ask kliment, or whosawhatsis, or triffid_hunter, or nophead if Z rod constraints reduce Z wobble. All of them will tell you it's a stupid idea. If you look at the design of nopheads Z coupling, you'll specifically notice that it is meant to allow the threaded rod to float around as much as it wants. Also, I'm looking at my prusa right now, and those 2 triangle frames, INCLUDING vertexes, have a grand total of 60 parts. Which means the triangles reduce the part count by 58. Not 70+. And if you count the 2 sets of nuts and washers at the bottom rod holders, seeing as those aren't actually eliminated, they're merely thrown on a different axis, that part count reduction goes down to 50. This inflated numbers bullshit...is, well, a bunch of bullshit. X and Y pulleys can be had anywhere. I currently run 15 tooth MXL metal pulleys myself... If you really want an improved printer design, and to fund someone who's put more than 30 minutes worth of time into some acrylic panels, look for the tantillus. The 3D printed frame files are already released on github, have been for months, and he's looking for funding to further the development he's already been working on. Things like daisy-chain electronics which will allow you to run entire factories of the printer on a single set of electronics, dual extrusion heads for floating gantries, and belt drive systems. He's been experimenting with some very interesting systems for linear motion using more common materials (braided high test fishing line). My problem with this is the utter lack of actual engineering done, and the plethora of marketing done. There's nothing special here. nothing new. Just a pair of acrylic panels and a kit that pretty much everybody and his brother already offer."[/i] Ironically, he said almost the exact opposite 2 days earlier in [url=http://www.reddit.com/r/Reprap/comments/uggtd/i_would_like_to_make_a_prusa_mendel_v2_but_dont/]this Reddit.com post.[/url] I've got a pretty thick skin, like a rhino. But even an "[i]idiot[/i]" can see that this isn't benneficial for RepRap. If we disagree, can't we still have a civil discourse, and discuss design ideas based on their merits. Without slandering, libeling, lying, and otherwise abusing and trashing each other. If not, RepRap is doomed to the trash can. When more members start acting like 2 year olds than students of higher learning, it's called a Daycare. "ThanktiK" if you don't like the design, stop trying to build it. If you don't understand, ask questions. You don't win arguments by shouting down your oponents, you just driver everyone away. If you don't understand the terms "libel", "slander", and willfully admiting your goal is to financial damage somone's reputation, it's not just stupid, your an American, it's litagable. Stealing people's copyrighted material and claiming it as your own isn't just wrong, it's classless. I think RepRap has more class than this. At least I hope so. BTW, I am still making changes to the Vision Design almost on a daily basis. At some point, I will do a design freeze (prior to shipping) and will release all of the files open source. If you can't wait, feel free to develop your own and show all of us how open source should be done. https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136623#msg-136623 Mon, 13 Jul 2026 02:30:52 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137908#msg-137908 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137908#msg-137908 billyzelsnack General Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:34:02 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137889#msg-137889 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137889#msg-137889 > I don't like the overblown claims about
> self-replication on the reprap.org's main page,
> but in any case the consensus definition seems to
> be that currently a RepRap is a printer which can
> be built from a combination of parts it can
> produce itself and standard off-the-shelf parts.
> (And I guess the extruders and electronics can be
> considered off-the-shelf parts now...) So I'd say
> that anything requiring a laser cutter to produce
> is definetely not a RepRap unless it comes with a
> laser cutting capability. Same for milled parts.

I agree with you about the overblown claims in reprap.org's main page.

OK, so maybe MendelMax is as much reprap as Mendel because it can be made with hand tools?
While you can use a hand saw to cut the extrusions, you'd probably use a chop saw, anyway, to get more accurate cuts.
Beekeeper's design could be cut out with hand tools, too. The laser cutter just makes more accurate cuts.

As for milled parts, that's a grey area, too. I've been using my drill press as a lathe to make my hot end parts. It's a pain, and I could have bought a real lathe, or a CNC, but I didn't want to spend the money.

One could argue that any part that needs to be drilled makes excludes the machine from being a reprap because a reprap can't drill.

Hobbed bolts can be purchased or made with hand tools. On the other hand, I can (and did) buy a higher performance bolt from Laszlo for about the same price as paying someone else to hob my bolt.

Where does one draw the line? The fact of the matter is that there is no hard line to be drawn.

@Traumflug,
Yes, I like the purist ideal of repraps being built completely of reprapped parts, but if a PLA bushing is sloppy and wears out quickly, I like the option of swapping it out for a linear bearing, so that I can have a trouble free machine that makes more precise prints.

I think it's silly to quibble about whose reprap is a true reprap until true repraps really exist.]]> lincomatic General Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:20:47 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137524#msg-137524 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137524#msg-137524 -------------------------------------------------------
> The MendelMax is considered to be a Reprap,
> because it uses printed bits to connect the
> extrusions. I don't think Beekeeper's design
> strays too far. What about the basic Mendel's
> threaded rod frame. No true Repraps exist

I don't like the overblown claims about self-replication on the reprap.org's main page, but in any case the consensus definition seems to be that currently a RepRap is a printer which can be built from a combination of parts it can produce itself and standard off-the-shelf parts. (And I guess the extruders and electronics can be considered off-the-shelf parts now...) So I'd say that anything requiring a laser cutter to produce is definetely not a RepRap unless it comes with a laser cutting capability. Same for milled parts.]]> ttsalo General Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:03:52 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137397#msg-137397 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137397#msg-137397
Quote

Any design, that draws any attention to RepRap and 3D printing, further's the goals of RepRap.

First, you'd have to define what the goals of RepRap are. If you ask spacexula on IRC, he'll cite Adrian Bowyer along the lines of "RepRap's goal is and ever was to make cheap printers, affordable for everyone. Having a printable design is just a way to get there."

Along these lines, RepRap is pretty much done. Because we _have_ affordable printers now. The only way to get them even cheaper would be to stabilize the design so it can be injection molded.

I'm pretty sure not everybody agrees with the above citation and IMHO it also contradicts Adrian's emphasis on design evolution (which is possible with a printable, replicatable, slightly more expensive design only) as well as "Wealth without money" (which had more emphasis before RepRapPro started to form).

For my part, I'll try hard to stick to the replication thing. No "chinese" Gen7 boards, even if it would take me just 5 minutes to get them. :)]]> Traumflug General Tue, 12 Jun 2012 04:39:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137378#msg-137378 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137378#msg-137378 dissidence General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:23:57 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137376#msg-137376 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137376#msg-137376
-Chelsea]]> Chelsea - QU-BD General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:20:53 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137372#msg-137372 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137372#msg-137372
i like your points, and i agree with you allot.

the thought of having a reprap police is not a good idea, and it seems that lately there have been a few people who think that we should be more purist about the open source part. there was a rather entertaining and frustrating thread on that not all that long ago.


i do believe that we need more smarter people working on this project, but the sad part is that one persons way of doing it right is another way of doing it wrong. i was really bad for that some times. but knowing how this project works there will never be a single way of doing things,

at the same time, i don't wanna see so many choices that it gets hard for people to learn about. or to decide what one to build we need the kits and we need the parts. but what is the most important part is that we need to be able to change.

the reason i am moving to using stuff like LM8UU bearings is that i want to be able to make better parts, so that maybe my next upgrade dose not need them, because the parts i can print are at least comparable to industry standards, ( or so i hope )

but i do believe we need the next makerbot to be on out side, if we fight it will be our undoing, i am glad to see that the majority of the top people in the reprap project try to stay out of the drama. that i think is one of the best things they could do, but i would like too see there input some more on new ideas, and explain why they are good/bad/need more work.]]> dissidence General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:31:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137361#msg-137361 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137361#msg-137361
"If it's not a RepRap (printable), you should not call it a RepRap." Then there are no true RepRap machines, and there never were.

"This is especially true if you want to make $$$ off of the design, beyond the cost of printing parts." You can definitely produce any type of machine you wish and sell it for any price point people think is acceptable. The truth is, anyone can. It's called free market, but even free market isn't free. But, when it comes time to give machines away, no one seems to do this.

One of the first backers of Makerbot was Adrian Bowler. Makerbot isn't making RepRap machines and they aren't giving their machines away, yet they are benefiting RepRap in drawing people to 3D printing that otherwise might not have been. Makerbot's work was largely based on RepRap though.

Any design, that draws any attention to RepRap and 3D printing, further's the goals of RepRap. Any machine that can produce 3D printed parts for RepRap machines does this also. If you try and police which designs are "acceptable" and which are not, you will choke the creativity that brings true revolutions.

No one has defined the exact percentage or types of parts that would make a machine qualify as being "True RepRap". They probably never will. RepRap defines all non RP plastic 3d printed parts as "vitamins". In truth, they should be considered Bones, Brains, Muscles, Nerves, etc... as without them, they are merely printed plastic parts,not a working 3d printer.]]> Beekeeper General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:08:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137294#msg-137294 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137294#msg-137294
That being said, the behavior you describe by some members, is unacceptable, if true.]]> jcabrer General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:50:09 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137273#msg-137273 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137273#msg-137273
If a RepRap will ever be made mostly from printed/DIY'd parts (which would be very welcome to me), at least a paradigm/goal change has to take place.]]> Traumflug General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:03:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137245#msg-137245 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137245#msg-137245 jamesdanielv General Mon, 11 Jun 2012 04:44:51 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137169#msg-137169 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,137169#msg-137169 -------------------------------------------------------
> akhlut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > steve893 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > RepRap means replicating rapid prototyper.
> > > Lasercut acrylic side panels and LEDs are not
> > > contributing to the title goal.
> >
> >
> > Neither are the myriad laser-cut plywood
> > designs...yet no one is fussy about ultimakers,
> > makerbots, mosaics etc...
>
> I just checked and none of those advertises itself
> as a RepRap. They just claim to be 3D printers.
> Nothing to be "fussy" about.

The MendelMax is considered to be a Reprap, because it uses printed bits to connect the extrusions. I don't think Beekeeper's design strays too far. What about the basic Mendel's threaded rod frame. No true Repraps exist]]> lincomatic General Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:30:17 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136858#msg-136858 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136858#msg-136858
> The seller's risk is only what they bring upon themselves by promising to deliver the item given the funds. I don't know what happens if they fail to do so?

It's a good question - what are the ramifications for those who don't deliver on their kickstarters?

I guess it is a bit like venture capitalism, with the difference being the IRR of the investment equaling the discount on the product received and no future benefit.]]> akhlut General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 11:09:18 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136853#msg-136853 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136853#msg-136853
The seller's risk is only what they bring upon themselves by promising to deliver the item given the funds. I don't know what happens if they fail to do so?

A proper business develops the product, buys parts and builds stock risking their own funds and then puts a product on the market. They buyer then has little risk assuming the seller is not fraudulent.]]> nophead General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:53:24 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136848#msg-136848 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136848#msg-136848
IMO this is the primary source of risk to the buyer/funder of kickstarter projects.]]> crispy General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:46:04 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136838#msg-136838 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136838#msg-136838 -------------------------------------------------------
> With Kickstarter all the risk is transferred from
> the seller to the buyer. I.e. the seller gets the
> money up front and guaranteed sales at a
> guaranteed price.

Isn't it a riskless system? No party bears any risk unless the campaign is fully funded. If the campaign isn't funded then everyone walks away, wallets intact. Even if the campaign does get funded how is the level of risk any different than ordering a kit from an established online store? They seem to face delays and have issues all the time.]]> akhlut General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:20:52 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136835#msg-136835 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136835#msg-136835 -------------------------------------------------------
> akhlut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > steve893 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > RepRap means replicating rapid prototyper.
> > > Lasercut acrylic side panels and LEDs are not
> > > contributing to the title goal.
> >
> >
> > Neither are the myriad laser-cut plywood
> > designs...yet no one is fussy about ultimakers,
> > makerbots, mosaics etc...
>
> I just checked and none of those advertises itself
> as a RepRap. They just claim to be 3D printers.
> Nothing to be "fussy" about.

Good point. I still don't see what peoples problem is with this kit. No reprap is fully printable...yet.]]> akhlut General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 08:58:42 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136809#msg-136809 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136809#msg-136809 -------------------------------------------------------
> steve893 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > RepRap means replicating rapid prototyper.
> > Lasercut acrylic side panels and LEDs are not
> > contributing to the title goal.
>
>
> Neither are the myriad laser-cut plywood
> designs...yet no one is fussy about ultimakers,
> makerbots, mosaics etc...

I just checked and none of those advertises itself as a RepRap. They just claim to be 3D printers. Nothing to be "fussy" about.]]> ttsalo General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 06:33:25 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136799#msg-136799 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136799#msg-136799 i would maybe consider writing to thingiverse,

while theres nothing wrong with him putting up his own variation, however he's using your picture and the implication is that the files supplied are the drawings to what is in the picture, i believe this may be a breech of the acceptable use policy,

also acording to my good lawyer friend you may be able to, if you want to take some legal action for any losses and/or damage simply because your design isn't actaully regarded as "opensource" until you release it as open source at the moment as far as i am aware it is not...

i know it's not a road anyone wants to see anyone go down especially on thingiverse and the 3d printing world but i would consult a lawyer about it, especially if it damages your kickstarter campaign]]> thejollygrimreaper General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 04:38:00 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136794#msg-136794 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136794#msg-136794 nophead General Fri, 08 Jun 2012 03:45:25 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136775#msg-136775 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136775#msg-136775 RecoveringSalesman General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 23:25:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136772#msg-136772 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136772#msg-136772 passinglurker General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 22:32:57 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136754#msg-136754 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136754#msg-136754
Quote

About the Mendel90, I like the design. It's structure is very good, but the space requirements for it's footprint require a dedicated table. A pursa needs about 1 sq ft of actual table support . The X-Y base sheet will require a very flat surface to sit on, or it will creep like the panels above. Also, I don't think it would fit in my car's trunk,

The space it needs is the same as a Prusa. If you can put a Prusa in box you can also put a Mendel90 in. Yes you can put a Prusa on a small table and let it overlap the sides but who does? Most people put it on a desk and a Prusa needs the same space as the carriage moves outside the frame.

Yes it needs to stand on a fat surface, but so does a Prusa. It would have to very stiff indeed to not move a few microns when placed on an uneven surface. Frames made from studding are certainly less stiff than 12mm MDF and MDF is stiffer and much lighter than acrylic.

It easily fits in the boot of my car which is quite small..]]> nophead General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 19:05:54 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136739#msg-136739 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136739#msg-136739
Until then, most people look to RepRap for an affordable 3d Printer.

RepRap's original goal is very noble, but no where near to being obtainable yet. Despite Makerbot's claims, a 3d printer can't just make about anything. They are very cool though, and absolutely my favorite tool in my shop.]]> Beekeeper General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:57:16 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136737#msg-136737 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136737#msg-136737 -------------------------------------------------------
> RepRap means replicating rapid prototyper.
> Lasercut acrylic side panels and LEDs are not
> contributing to the title goal.


Neither are the myriad laser-cut plywood designs...yet no one is fussy about ultimakers, makerbots, mosaics etc...

Do we need to spawn a separate forum for machines with less than a certain percent of self-replicated parts? Y'know for those 'other' machines?]]> akhlut General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:48:31 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136735#msg-136735 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136735#msg-136735 I would think that for the majority of people on the board they are looking for an affordable 3D printer, the goal of self replication is secondary.

Where do you draw the line on self replication anyway, we're certainly not self replicating the nuts and bolts or the threaded/smooth rods or the currently popular LM8UU bearings.
As the bearings demonstrate most are willing to exchange printed parts for purchased ones if the price is reasonable.
On this site, what about all the work towards resin based DLP printers, none of those I've seen could even attempt to self replicate.]]> Polygonhell General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:42:06 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136734#msg-136734 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136734#msg-136734
@akhlut: I totally agree. The beauty and simplicity of the Prusa design is exactly why there are so many variations. Big hats off to Prusa, great work. You saved everyone that has made one, hundreds of dollars and hours of work - that's great innovation. Is it perfect, no, no design is, but it was a huge leap forward.

@Mazaw: It wasn't about insulting anyone. I was referring more to cookie cutter versions of the same printer. A maufacturing "one size fits all" approach that most of the large open source 3d printer manufacturers sell. Ford motor company owned the car market in the early part of last century, but Ford's "You can have any color car so long as it's black" mentality allowed dozens of other car companies to overtake Ford.

As far as knock offs, I am fine with that. "Imitation is a sincere form of flattery" but taking someones work, claiming it for your own, then using it to deride the work is wrong. ANYONE that can or wants to try and do better absolutely can, then they can release it to all when they wish. However, most of the mocker's of designs and verbally violent about open source will NEVER make any designs and NEVER release anything open source anyway. The "This is how I would have done it" critics usually never do anything.

Also, I have made more than a half dozen of these machines, I haven't even shown the ones that will set off fireworks.

@billyzelsnak: I don't even have a clue how you sold your beta machines for $300 each. Absolutely amazing and the demand shows it, Good work. Is the machine a PLA only machine, or how can you print with ABS? I think it is a great addition to RepRap and 3d printing in general, thanks.

@Polygonhell: I don't have a problem at all with someone copying my design, I was going to release it anyway. My probem, is when someone takes a picture I took of my machine, posts it claiming to be their original work, then uses the same post to launch into a tirade against the design - RepRap needs to be bigger than that. Especially, when they have never even made their "derivative" in the first place.

BTW, the Vision printer is a derivative of a working RepRap Prusa Mendel I2, not an Air Prusa. When you eliminate one side wall of a triangle, and make it only 6mm the thickness, then you have then introduced a lot more wobble in the whole machine. Meccano realized this, so he added a structural cross brace to try and counteract some of it. The Air Prusa still limits the X axis size with it's fixed X motor mounts, and makes for a smaller building area (especially if you use a long extuder like the Makergear Stepstruder). The best working example of the Air Prusa was made by Illius. Check out his Thingiverse page, he definitely knows how to make the machine perform very well. I would like to know what material he made it out of. It's not acrylic though. Also, I would love to see a video of it in action, his printed parts are amazing.]]> Beekeeper General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:41:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136732#msg-136732 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136732#msg-136732 -------------------------------------------------------
> akhlut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >If you can't recover these costs what is the
> point to
> > innovation? Just for fun? Sure. But fun
> doesn't
> > motivate everyone.
>
> If I don't attach a commercial aspect to my
> projects they only get so far and they end up just
> good enough for my personal use. Without the
> prospect of some form of commercialization I would
> of stopped at my first printer design a year ago
> and moved on.

My point exactly.]]> akhlut General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:37:31 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136730#msg-136730 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136730#msg-136730 steve893 General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:28:37 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136727#msg-136727 Re: Is RepRap Going to the Gutter? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,136623,136727#msg-136727 Some people see some of the "marketing" as disingenuous and lash out to protect who knows what.
It's clearly the way forwards, at least until some "good enough" design becomes a de-facto standard.

The nature of open source is that anyone can offer any product significant improvement or not and people can decide to commit their money to it on the aforementioned sites. There is nothing in open source that stops people making money off open designs, you don't see Linus complaining about redhat making money. The GPL does try to force people to contribute improvements back, but I've always disliked that, as it always felt like some sort of philosophical tax. My philosophy has always been If you believe in open make it open, BSD or apache license open.

I don't think it's productive to attack efforts like this whether yours or anyone else's, but you'll get angry people in any community, IMO the more designs out there the better, some will succeed, some will fail, I don't think we'll see a lot of big innovations, it'll be a lot of small changes that add up, so the more printers out there, the more likely we'll see interesting design changes, some good, some bad.

And on the flip side I see no issue with someone copying your idea and posting something similar to thingiverse, it's also unlikely to affect anything your doing since having acrylic custom cut isn't the cheapest thing to do in quantities of 1.]]> Polygonhell General Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:07:11 -0400