Patent Infringement (Stratasys) Note that I'm in the U.S. (patent laws seem to be a bit different here, but they follow the same WTO rules, as far as I know). Also note that I have only a basic understanding of law, and no personal experience. I'm interested in building a RepRap and using parts that I make as components in machines that I will use to manufacture products that I can sell for a profit. I understand that Stratasys has a series of patents protecting their FDM techniques, and that the RepRap has a design similar to their machines. Everyone seems to be okay with this because most people here are interested in research and recreational/hobby use. What is the extent of the patent infringement by the use of a standard Darwin RepRap? Which parts of the design infringe on which patents? Is there perhaps a way to redesign it such that its use as described could be legal? As far as I know, whether the idea was "invented" independently or copied doesn't matter in the eyes of the law. (Also, I'm not so sure you guys "invented" the RepRap totally independently of the patented FDM process anyway.) Lastly, what is/are the ending date(s) of the relevant patent(s)? Stratasys' patents seem have filing dates from 1989 (or possibly 1988) to 2007, but I'm not sure exactly which ones apply, and I'm not sure what their terms are (they are not listed). I assume the terms are the standard 20-year terms starting on the filing date, but I could be wrong. Oh, and does it matter if the patent describes an apparatus, as opposed to a method? That is, if someone has patented an apparatus (like patent # 5939008 http://www.google.com/patents?id=bkIYAAAAEBAJ&dq=stratasys) for performing a certain function, and I come up with a different apparatus performing the same (or a similar) function, would the patent "protect" against the use (and/or creation) of my device? I would think that the patent would be irrelevant in such a case; am I wrong? https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,15491#msg-15491 Tue, 16 Jun 2026 17:02:38 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,273049#msg-273049 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,273049#msg-273049
You might be interested in this thread, it is more recent: 3D printed vacuum robot. ;)]]> MattMoses General Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:21:46 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,273041#msg-273041 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,273041#msg-273041
Quote
ErikDeBruijn
...This goal of keeping things balanced is important to me. Besides that, I think it is just as important that I can produce inventions with a professional touch. Would also be nice if further down the road there would be projects to work on, such as an open source vacuuming-robot.

Funny you say that :) I'm just working on a vacuuming robot printed, open source ... next to the smartrap . I hope we will cooperate :)

Serge]]> smartfriendz General Wed, 27 Nov 2013 22:40:29 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,273000#msg-273000 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,273000#msg-273000 mrPrik General Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:30:50 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,224674#msg-224674 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,224674#msg-224674 Simba General Sat, 06 Jul 2013 19:04:06 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16793#msg-16793 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16793#msg-16793
If you can convince people to pay you for reproducing something that reproduces itself, more power to you.

The problem as I see it is, the whole purpose of a RepRap is to make copying "objects" relatively effortless. Adding a donation or tariff to each print goes against that purpose.

There are some great economic opportunities here, we just need to get beyond the old models.]]> Wade General Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:09:15 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16782#msg-16782 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16782#msg-16782
Quote

Perhaps you did. Reprap is a place where the real players actually DO things and make things, not just spin stories about doing things or making things. It's the antithesis of RPG for the people who are actually working on the project.
I would think that economics was important, and that the people who try to understand and give us the tools to operate in a society would be people included in DOing something.

Here are a few links you might find interesting, it is what I have been going on about:
[quidmusic.digitalproductions.co.uk]

These guys are using the model I suggested. Yes, the model in not mine, I didn't think it up. I just thought that you might have been interested in actually using something that works and that would allow you to make money using 3D printing.

[www.gamasutra.com]
This is from a computer game development site and it is discussing the concepts of when you can easily replicate something (like pirates and video games, or movable type and books for instance), then you can't rely on getting value from the fact that they are hard to come by.

These are real people, doing real things using post scarcity business models and making real money.

You talked about playing. At the moment RepRap is just a hobby project, so you are effectively playing (and not that it is a bad thing). But these people have taken these ideas beyond a hobby and make their lively hoods with this business model. When RpeRap is involved in that, it will move beyond a hobby and just playing.

I am coming from the real world of business and the need to put food on ones table.

There is a saying: If you fail to plan, then you are planning to fail.

RepRap is a disruptive technology. It will cause disruptions to the current economic systems. Wouldn't it be considered "Doing" to plan for these disruptions and actually try to plan in such a way as to take advantage of them?]]> Edtharan General Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:32:08 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16781#msg-16781 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16781#msg-16781 -------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I think
> yes, they would. Much like people are spending
> their own time & money to develop a better reprap.
> Progress would definately slow down, but it would
> go on.


Why should progress slow down? Have you seen Clay Shirky's presentation "Here comes everybody?"

He suggests that we have a giant untapped resource of human time and potential that will gradually come online over the next couple decades and revolutionize society. As an example he notes the millions of manhours that have been poured into wikipedia. Other things I can think of people haven't made any money off include the Google Sketchup object library and Project Gutenberg which has been scanning in public domain books for many years.

I would say you aren't optimistic enough on this subject.]]> rodzite General Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:26:41 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16779#msg-16779 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16779#msg-16779
With such a system I don't think there will be much slow-down...]]> ErikDeBruijn General Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:23:16 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16777#msg-16777 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16777#msg-16777
As nobody would pay for this extremely specialized item, he gives it away for free ...

Or look on the 'comercialized' linux-distributions - they are basically free, but someone (or a company) selected and optimized the compound and installation-mechanism, so it's easier to install for 'noobs'

When there are people gracefull for some pieces of software or 3D-objects (or ...) and some others are happy generating valuable stuff 'for free', then it's definitely on the way ...

Viktor

Viktor]]> VDX General Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:10:58 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16774#msg-16774 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16774#msg-16774
Maybe I'm too much of an optimist, but I think yes, they would. Much like people are spending their own time & money to develop a better reprap. Progress would definately slow down, but it would go on.]]> Kitep General Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:22:58 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16772#msg-16772 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16772#msg-16772 "Scarce" means rare or uncommon, "Unique" means one of a kind; therefor "unique" is the ultimate form of "scarce".
To be "potentially unique" an item would have to be capable of having something added to or taken from it so that it would be unlike any other thing. Either the original item would be unique but it's unique-ness would be concealed until something was added or subtracted, or a "normal" item would have something unique added to it. In either case there is a pre-existing unique item involved so the "potential" is a misnomer. A unique combination of existing things creates a new unique thing and therefor either everything is "potentially unique" or nothing is and hence the phrase has no meaning.

I think that branding will have some place in a post scarcity economy, but at this point we have neither cart nor horse, so I agree with Forrest that it is better to spend time doing real work than arguing about harness styles.]]> BDolge General Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:07:04 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16760#msg-16760 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16760#msg-16760 Forrest Higgs General Tue, 09 Sep 2008 12:06:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16759#msg-16759 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16759#msg-16759 :)-D]]> Wade General Tue, 09 Sep 2008 12:03:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16667#msg-16667 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16667#msg-16667 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> But perhaps I overestimated people here.
>
Perhaps you did. Reprap is a place where the real players actually DO things and make things, not just spin stories about doing things or making things. It's the antithesis of RPG for the people who are actually working on the project.]]> Forrest Higgs General Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:47:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16656#msg-16656 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16656#msg-16656
Quote

You must admit that what you say seems to betray a rather obsessive interest in somehow indellibly marking some hypothetical innovative object as your own.
But that is not the same as creating value of an object due to scarcity. That is giving a personal value to an object. It is completely different.

One is giving an object value because it is hard to come by, the other is nostalgia. How is nostalgia the same are rarity?

Are you are essentially telling me what I am supposed to be thinking because you didn't read my posts properly?

Go back and reread them. At the start I did discuss being able to watermark an item, but people assumed that I was asking that because I wanted to stop people from copying the items.

So it wasn't what I said that lead you down this path, but the comments made by others assuming something about me. I have no control over what someone else thinks, so if they make a comment about something I said, those comments are not what I said.

I made an query about whether or not is was possible to place a watermark in an object. I did not say that is was to restrict copying that object. I later explained that this was to make an object potentially unique so that a person would be better able to create a personal attachment (and hence value) to said object.

This is not stating that I want to make each object unique to add value to it because it is unique, just that it is potentially unique so that it makes it easier for an end user to form an emotional attachment to the object.

In fact it really doesn't matter is the object is unique or not. Making it personalised was just an easy way to use the abilities of 3D printing to create that emotional attachment. As I also said, you could just send them an E-Mail to thank them.

I only focused on watermarks because it was a method that would allow devices such as the RepRap to demonstrate their usefulness and that it highlighted how you could change scarcity economy thinking to work in a post scarcity economy. But perhaps I overestimated people here.]]> Edtharan General Sat, 06 Sep 2008 06:24:21 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16614#msg-16614 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16614#msg-16614 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why is everybody thinking that I am trying to
> advocate making items have scarcity when I
> explicitly state that this is not my intention?
>
Because what you explicitly state and what you subsequently argue don't bear a lot of resemblance to each other.

You must admit that what you say seems to betray a rather obsessive interest in somehow indellibly marking some hypothetical innovative object as your own.]]> Forrest Higgs General Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:43:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16599#msg-16599 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16599#msg-16599
For the last birthday of my older son i moulded some "Han Solo in Carbonite"-chocolate-bars (look here: [forums.reprap.org] ) as giveaways.

I didn't mention to give them some value, as it was only a sweety and they were a bit remelted (smoothed at the edges) as we were out and the choc-bars were some hours in the sun ...

When i last asked the parents of two of his friends, if the chocolate was tasty for their children (as i was testing with different types of couverture), they didn't know, because the children wants to keep the "Han's" safe in the refrigerator :S

I offered them to make new bars, but until now no one asked ...

Viktor]]> VDX General Fri, 05 Sep 2008 03:14:55 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16595#msg-16595 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16595#msg-16595
Quote

Adding value to an item isn't the same thing as making it scarce. The question that I have in, however, not why you would want to add value to an item, but why you'd want to make it scarce?
I am not wanting to make it scarce!

You are obviously not getting it.

Or maybe you are. You stated that "adding value is not the same as making it scarce". This is my point.

The whole idea is to have the owner add value to the item by giving them some, kind of personal value to the item.

A personalised, signed "thank you" embedded into the item (or even just as a little printable badge would do) would be all that is needed.

It doesn't even need to be an actualy physica object that gets printed. It could take the form of an Email thanking the person for their contribution.

Get it. It is not the object, or its scarcity that I am advocating for. I am advocating for ways in which we can add value to something that has nothing whatsoever to do with scarcity

Why is everybody thinking that I am trying to advocate making items have scarcity when I explicitly state that this is not my intention?]]> Edtharan General Fri, 05 Sep 2008 02:48:16 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16594#msg-16594 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16594#msg-16594
Seems to me that it is pointless figuring out how you are going to get paid for something before you've created that something. (:P)]]> Forrest Higgs General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:15:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16593#msg-16593 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16593#msg-16593 > making it scarce. The question that I have in,
> however, not why you would want to add value to an
> item, but why you'd want to make it scarce? :S

The way I consider this is simple; I'm not trying to make the final product scarce. I'm trying to approximate selling the scarce resource of my time by charging for a copy of the thingy, to avoid needing an elaborate organization to handle paying me money directly for resources I have a very finite amount of. Which also inclines me to not mind that much about some people cheating each other over paying their part of my fee, so long as I get a reasonable amount in for the time I invest.]]> jonored General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:02:27 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16576#msg-16576 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16576#msg-16576 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> This means we need to find another way of adding
> value to an item, or another form of scarcity.
>


Adding value to an item isn't the same thing as making it scarce. The question that I have in, however, not why you would want to add value to an item, but why you'd want to make it scarce? :S]]> Forrest Higgs General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:55:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16569#msg-16569 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16569#msg-16569

We are currently in a Scarcity Economy. That is the main value of an object is due to its scarcity. It could be because it is difficult to manufacture, or that not many are actually made.

Art work is a good example. There is really only one copy of a piece of art, and it is this that gives it its value. It is valuable only[/i] because there are no other copies.

However, with technologies like RepRap, we enter into a Post Scarcity Economy.

In Post Scarcity Economies, as objects can be replicated with ease, we can no longer put value on an object because it is scarce as it will no longer be scarce.

This means we need to find another way of adding value to an item, or another form of scarcity.

The kind of scarcity that I am talking about we all know. Remember back to your childhood. I bet you had a favourite toy (mine was and still is my collection of Lego - and I still would not sell it). I also bet that there was no amount of money that could be give to you that would have made you sell your favourite toy.

It is this kind of scarcity that I am talking about: Personal Value

We can value an object, not because it is hard to make, or that not many were made, but because it has some kind of personal significance to us.

In a post scarcity world, we can make unlimited copies of an object for very little cost (raw materials and power to run the RepRap). But if an object has personal value, then it has a value that can not be copied.

The idea I am proposing is that we develop the tools and techniques (software) that allows someone to easily add a personal touch to an object. This might be in the form of a signature, or a little "thank you" mark on an object (the form it takes is not significant at all).

When someone designs an object, they release this for free to the world. However, if someone makes a donations to them, then the tools allow them to easily make a personalised mark on the object to thank the person that contributed to them.

Now, as this is a personalised make to the person who contributed, it means that this object now has a personal value to the owner (not the designer).

If the owner then give this file to someone else to print, it does not impact the designer at all as they have already released their design for free anyway, so this extra copy going around is not impacting them at all.

The only person that is impacted by these extra copies floating around was the person who got the object file by contributing to the designer.

Let me take you through an example:
Dave the designer creates a Dohicky. He then releases this for free download so that people with their RepRaps can print it.

However, Owen likes Dave's work and sends a small donation of $10.

Dave responds by using a signaturing tool to write "Thanks Owen for the donation. From Dave." on the Dohicky that he then sends to Owen.

Later Peter the Pirate, hacks into Owen's computer and makes his own copy of Owen's Dohicky file and releases this onto the internet for anyone to copy.

However, as it is Owen that places any value on that particular version of the Dohicky, any an unsigned version can be downloaded for free, Peter has not actually gained anything by making this particular file available, and neither Owen or Dave has actually lost anything by them doing so (although Owen might feel like he has lost something).

Because only Owen places personal[/] value on his version of the Dohicky, it is of no value to anyone else because there are other versions available, and it is of no consequence to Dave if the item is copied as he has already made it available to copy for free anyway.

You all seem to keep wanting to put value on an object due to scarcity. But in a Post Scarcity Economy this is not going to work. It won't matter how clever or how intricate a system you develop. one thing will always stop you: And that is that the value you are placing on the object is supposed to originate in scarcity, but in a post scarcity world the objects are not scarce so you have nothing to give the object value.]]> Edtharan General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:33:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16567#msg-16567 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16567#msg-16567 > So i would say: - forget IP for reprap, develop
> personalized services instead ...
>
Better yet, design and build something useful for a useful market that doesn't have the volume to justify somebody building a factory and conventional production line. (:P)]]> Forrest Higgs General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:28:10 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16560#msg-16560 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16560#msg-16560
the idea with personalized fabbing materials isn't meant to stop someone of copying the design - i think it's not possible, because any halfway capable person can reconstruct (or simple scan and/or resample/reshape) any RP-object, if he/she wants to.

It's more to allow a 'value-added' service - e.g. better/stabler material, special fabbing- or tempering-conditions, so the parts last longer or didn't break apart when in continuous use.

On the other side it's a trace to the original source, if the specific part causes some damage or havoc.

So i would say: - forget IP for reprap, develop personalized services instead ...

Viktor]]> VDX General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:08:40 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16556#msg-16556 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16556#msg-16556
Quote

With simply refiltering or resizing of your file this displacements are resampled and intermixed with random noise, so it's useless when someone skilled wants to vialate your properties

I already said this ;)

Quote

So better look for 'material-branding'

And as I may also have mentioned, restricting production in this way takes away the major benefit of the reprap.

But how are you going to stop people using common materials and the same design file, modified so it no longer requires your specially doctored filaments?

It goes back to the original arguments about honesty, and the sort of person who is willing to forgo the convenience of using materials already available and 'generic' design files in order to use a design approved by you, and purchase materials from what is likely to be an inconvenient and expensive source.]]> Ru General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:59:45 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16551#msg-16551 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16551#msg-16551
... any actual watermarking of image- or 3D-data is based on super-fine displacement of color-vaues or 3D-coordinates in a specific area, so the encoding-algorhythmus can extract this offset from the byte-stream.

With simply refiltering or resizing of your file this displacements are resampled and intermixed with random noise, so it's useless when someone skilled wants to vialate your properties - it's intended only for the 1:1 transfer of data and any resampling eliminates this type of watermarks.

So better look for 'material-branding' as i mentioned with colour-tags embedded in the filament.

The 3D-data of an object isn't really IP-safe - but a fabbed object could be mailed with ease too and here you have much more possibilities ...

Viktor]]> VDX General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 04:48:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16549#msg-16549 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16549#msg-16549
Quote

Now we have TWO objekt with exactly the same pattern printed on or embedded in it.
How do you know which one is "the real thing" ?

If you look at the marks as a sign of authenticity, you're doomed. I'm more interested in the value of watermarking them as a way to track 'leaks' of your design.

If I hide the watermark in the model cleverly enough, it will not be easy to spot in the design file, or alter or remove, but it will be visible in the final result.

If I sell you the design for one of my devices, I might take the original, virgin STL and run it through a watermarking script to add the data 'Made by Ru for Sid'. Chances are, you'll never see, or care about the watermark.

If I suddenly see a whole bunch of people using what looks very much like my device, and I analyse it or their design files in some appropriate way and I see the watermark 'Made by Ru for Sid', I'll know that a) it is indeed a cheap knockoff of mine and b) that you've just violated my intellectual property rights. Cue lawyers.

The trick is making a resilient and cryptographically secure watermarking scheme... far, far easier said than done.]]> Ru General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 04:04:02 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16544#msg-16544 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16544#msg-16544
just to be clear, I doubt anyone will ever get rich creating fabber models, maybe someday folks will support themselves shareware style or by creating individualized items. I am only suggesting that there are techniques that make pirating less attractive without damaging anyone's rights.]]> BDolge General Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:02:26 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16497#msg-16497 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16497#msg-16497
Viktor]]> VDX General Wed, 03 Sep 2008 06:40:10 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16495#msg-16495 Re: Patent Infringement (Stratasys) https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,15491,16495#msg-16495
For example, you don't just sell a clothes hanger that anyone can copy, but you will mount it for the buyer.

I know that there is no market for that, but it should illustrate what I mean by added value. Anything that we can do on a RepRap, someone else can do faster an better (and cheaper - see China). So if one wants to reprap commercially, there would have to be an extra service.

One maybe not so silly example: offer a service to mount *any* phone in *any* car and *any* position. The client holds the phone how he prefers it, and you take a scanner, scan the back of the phone, the dash of the car, and the mounting position, and reprap a mount that matches the scans. Someone else can still copy one of your product, but there is no market for his copy because it is individually crafted.]]> matt General Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:39:14 -0400