RepRap near future Hi guys, This should really go in the development forum I think, but I don't have permission to post there. I'll keep this short and simple: I think that the RepRap design should become more standardized. for a newcomer there is no single set of files he can download and almost no indication on what to use. In software terms: we are like the SourceForge projects that only provide source code without the binaries. This is annoying for the end-user. As a project we need to get ourselves together and focus on a single set of plans. development branches can occur but the trunk must be maintained and the branches can later be assimilated into the trunk. I think that if we want to see the project growing we need to make it much easier for people to understand what they are building. Currently the procedure involves a lot of frustration. I feel lost in the sea of websites, wikis and lists. there are too many websites and lists and instructions. too many things are not up-to-date and the information is all over the place. take for example the Ubuntu project. it is an enormously complex project to build an operating system, but for the end-user that just wants ubuntu that is of no concern. the process is easy. go to www.ubuntu.com and see for yourself. as a project I think we should strive to merge the whole project into a more coherent structure for end-users. I think we could manage with very little effort to consolidate the website into a single source of information (with a back section for builders and developers) and with a little organization we could reach a point where the instructions for the end users are: 1)Get these parts. 2)build this. 3)Install this. 4)start printing. As I have said many times, I volunteer to help. -Leav https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17423#msg-17423 Sat, 18 Jul 2026 02:08:38 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17900#msg-17900 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17900#msg-17900 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I didn't think of your
> developments being used for Darwin/Mendel stuff.
>
They've used some stuff that I've done. It isn't always obvious. (:D]]> Forrest Higgs General Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:18:56 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17897#msg-17897 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17897#msg-17897
Demented]]> Demented Chihuahua General Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:36:51 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17894#msg-17894 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17894#msg-17894
If you've been reading my blog, you'll know that I'm leveraging that capability to do milling of PCBs. I've just about got the software for doing PC layout design working like I want and I'm well on my way to doing a Voronoi Isolates takeoff on standard circuit board layouts. While that saves milling tool wear it also makes it possible to more or less mill heavy amperage boards that can handle those awful multi-amp stepper motors that most of you are using with Darwin without having to make an overt effort to size the traces from the L298N to the screw terminals.

In a few weeks, I should have that whole ensemble of software going to the point where it could be transferred over to the Darwin development stream without a lot of drama.

As I see it, that's going to democratise board development in Darwin tremendously and let a lot more reprappers do board design than is currently practical.]]> Forrest Higgs General Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:41:01 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17892#msg-17892 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17892#msg-17892
Demented]]> Demented Chihuahua General Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:20:47 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17885#msg-17885 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17885#msg-17885 -------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think this is the problem we should tackle
> at the moment.
>
Your choice.
>
> I suggest we focus on documenting the current
> design as best we can, so that the current design
> would be easily understood.
>
It's definitely a great idea.
>
> after that we can worry about designing Darwin (or
> Mendel) with simplicity in mind.
>
Tommelise, the Reprap machine that I'm designing is a LOT simpler in concept and execution than Darwin. That doesn't make Darwin irrelevant, mind. Far from it.
>
> By the way I think things would naturally flow
> that way once a significant number of people have
> a Darwin.
>
Zach, Ian and Vik are hard at work trying to make that a reality. I, too, might well have a little Darwin-related surprise for you all in a few weeks that should make Darwin a LOT more accessible for ordinary enthusiasts. (:P)]]> Forrest Higgs General Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:19:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17879#msg-17879 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17879#msg-17879
I suggest we focus on documenting the current design as best we can, so that the current design would be easily understood.

after that we can worry about designing Darwin (or Mendel) with simplicity in mind.

By the way I think things would naturally flow that way once a significant number of people have a Darwin.

-Leav]]> Leav General Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:48:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17870#msg-17870 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17870#msg-17870 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think that it can be made simpler for the end
> user, but the actual operation of it is complex.
> Good design can hide this complexity from the end
> user, but that complexity still remains.
>
There is nothing intrinsically complex about what we are trying to do. We can make it complex, the design of our controller electronics being a case in point, but we needn't.]]> Forrest Higgs General Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:42:35 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17869#msg-17869 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17869#msg-17869
Quote

It needn't be. It's a matter of making simplicity a much stronger factor in the design process.
I think that it can be made simpler for the end user, but the actual operation of it is complex. Good design can hide this complexity from the end user, but that complexity still remains.

Quote

I just hammered (edge connectors in aluminium square tubes) a small frame for a baby reprap
so.. why not?
Good point :)-D]]> Edtharan General Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:38:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17849#msg-17849 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17849#msg-17849
Quote

well a hammer wouldn't work for a RepRap
I just hammered (edge connectors in aluminium square tubes) a small frame for a baby reprap
so.. why not?

'sid]]> sid General Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:53:43 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17843#msg-17843 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17843#msg-17843 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I agree, RepRap is inherently complex
>
It needn't be. It's a matter of making simplicity a much stronger factor in the design process.]]> Forrest Higgs General Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:55:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17835#msg-17835 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17835#msg-17835
Quote

Maybe not to HP Deskjets, but maybe to LEGO buildplans.
I agree, RepRap is inherently complex and it would take a lot of development to get it to the ease of use of a typical desktop printer (not that we shouldn't try for this).

As a first step to this, I was thinking along the lines of a flat pack furniture product. Basically, all the components are included in a package and all they need are simple household tools like a Screwdriver or a Hammer (well a hammer wouldn't work for a RepRap 8-) :D ).]]> Edtharan General Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:51:17 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17822#msg-17822 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17822#msg-17822
I think that this could be a great idea.
it doesn't have to be CAD (though that would be nice in my opinion), but a the general style of how Lego conveys it's instructions in such a graphical way as to not even need words is a great thing to strive for.

the even better thing is that if we strive for no words, and then use words,it shoud probably be the most coherent manual ever written :)

-Leav]]> Leav General Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:37:53 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17819#msg-17819 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17819#msg-17819 [objects.reprap.org]]]> greenarrow General Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:46:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17813#msg-17813 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17813#msg-17813
(Edit: for what we should strive for in the simplicity of our build instructions)]]> Leav General Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:58:23 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17812#msg-17812 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17812#msg-17812
Quote

It is inevitable that they will have to do some reading around, because Darwin will never be an "HP Deskjet 650c" that just plugs in and is intended for people who triple-click icons.
True!
But to spread fast and efficient we need to get as close as possible :D
Maybe not to HP Deskjets, but maybe to LEGO buildplans.
at least a numbered order of where and when things are build.

'sid]]> sid General Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:28:36 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17810#msg-17810 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17810#msg-17810
I agree on the need for a simple, single, set of instructions, and I agree it should be adapted to the "internet attention span".

I still view this as very possible to do within the "confines" of a wiki.
this is simple, and is already used in wikipedia in several forms:

-------------------------------
You are here:
.....V
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
-------------------------------

is fine, together with a zeroth page, which explains the building process and includes links to other possible pages:

-------------------------------------------
Blah blah you are about to build a darwin blah blah blah.
bookmark this page so you can always come back here.
here are the major steps using the standard design:

1 get parts
2 ???
3 Profit!
4
5
6
7

Variations:
here are the basic variations that exist, with a short explanation. click on them to learn more. they might save you work if you are in a certain condition.

a one line
b each
c so it
d remains
e readable
------------------------------------------



once they click on [1] they are sucked in and can not deviate from the line (this is good!)





It is inevitable that they will have to do some reading around, because Darwin will never be an "HP Deskjet 650c" that just plugs in and is intended for people who triple-click icons.

Later RepRap versions will perhaps set that as a goal, but currently I do not think it is possible, or desireable.]]> Leav General Sun, 19 Oct 2008 09:48:39 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17805#msg-17805 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17805#msg-17805
Let me explain why:

Take your tree, with lots of alternatives for every step in that tree:
day one: user takes the first lets say four steps on three pages
day two: user wants to go back two steps because he thinks he's done something wrong now he needs to remember wich option he chose or has to search around for the page that looks familiar.
day three: he thinks about a printout of everything he needs to print every step seperately searching around for the correct pages, reading their description and so forth.

Take my select first and then only back and forth:
day one: user chooses what he wants to do, for the best he can (all other will be preset default options) and he makes the first four steps on three pages
day two: as above he figured to go back two pages (just by hitting the "go back one page" link twice because of the optioncookie he has) and can be sure about having the correct page within seconds rather than minutes.
day three: he thinks again about printing all needed steps to have them handy at the shop where he doesn't have a computer, still he has to print every step
seperately but he only needs to clicks per page(next page & print page) because the website KNOWS WHAT he needs, no guessing no searching no description reading
(all necessary descriptions he read on day one and made his choice)

wikis are nonlinear websites, that's find for wiki-esque things like dictionarys, where one page stands fo itself and is not necessarily part of a bigger set of informations.
For building instructions where you simply have to follow ALL directives most likely in a certain order a linear webconstruction is the most convenient way for users.
Building a tree is fine, for us, for those who have an idea of what informations we(they) are looking for.
We can tell by "thermoplastextruder Mk2" that it is older than v1.1 (although it is named v2.0 in it's description) we know that it is directly driven (what seems to make more sense for some plastics) and we know which informations we need to grap there and which we don't.
But how should a Newbie know?
He can't he has to read everything, most pages twice take a close look in the forum to know what he should do best.
So why show him a tree structure with both extruders?
Show him the v1.1 and he's good to go (maybe a small hint like mentioned there for the improvements)

Most important (a least that's what I think) is: clean up the cartesian bot files at sourceforge, at least make another set called (beginners bot.good to go v1)
kick all the parts that are not documented (I'm still wondering about all the "caliper" parts) a set with NOTHING but the parts that are mentioned in the instructions everything else is just confusing people.

Don't get me wrong, I don't insist on coding a plugin or writing (cleaning up my) javascript, lots of other things that can be done around here.
But as far as I know internetusers are not only patient or even reading people.
think about all the semistupid posts in the forums asking things that do not belong here... *breakingbonesound* for software we mentioned, asking about how to do xyz with a microcontroller somebody mentioned and so on;
People are reading few words that match and then they make the decision to post.
Same in making decisions on "what do I do"
If they see a tree with lets say twenty entries, all they think is:
wow, that's along way to go.. many pages to read... I'm outa here.
if it's one page with few options to make and they're left with seven or less pages, they'll give it a try.
hence why almost noone tries to build their own "cintiq" (sorry for misusing a brand) too much steps to take, although it's easier to do than to build a darwin.

We must be small but effective (on informations) to those who just want to fly in and try out.
No need to abandon the full set of informations for all those (like you and me) that are willing to read many days to know more.

whoo long post above there.. I'm sorry
-quit-

'sid]]> sid General Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:41:23 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17804#msg-17804 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17804#msg-17804
I'm sorry if this sounds as if I am dismissive of your hard work, but...

are we even sure that the uber-complex branching is the behavior we want?

seems to make much more sense to me to have a modular layout and have one main page as the tree from which we branch out.

to fully utilize the tree analogy:
Trunk - There is/will be a main design which will be the trunk.
Branches - Alternate designs which some people might want to use.

The main instructions page would link to the tree, in a way which would make it obvious which of the designs is "trunk" and which is "branch".

Since building a RepRap is not a 10 minute deal, it would not be useful for end users (as far as i can tell) to have a "wizard" type tutorial since they will often want to back and forth.

this is something that can be solved by properly designing the "tree" page and making it easy to use.

-Leav]]> Leav General Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:03:20 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17796#msg-17796 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17796#msg-17796 I'm still searching for a viable path with the hooks mediawiki left for code additions.
A javascript is in almost working condition but it's not too small,
and leaves a bad layout if js is deactivated on the client machine :(

short: I'm not quite there yet

'sid]]> sid General Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:07:55 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17659#msg-17659 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17659#msg-17659 reece.arnott General Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:02:11 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17621#msg-17621 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17621#msg-17621 Forrest Higgs General Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:38:32 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17620#msg-17620 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17620#msg-17620
It's not ideal, but I think recommending anything other than the bootable CD for a newbie is asking for trouble. The installation is just too complex, and there are to many places to go wrong, and too little feedback from the computer itself as to what needs done to fix it.

My prior experience with Knoppix leads me to think that one of the main modifications we might want to make to the CD/DVD to have a writeable area by default on the user's real hard disk. Someplace to save all your modified models, custom extruder settings, and so forth. Otherwise, knoppix has a nasty habit of forgetting everything between reboots unless you take great pains to tell it otherwise each time you reboot. I suppose that I haven't looked at knoppix in years, and that might have changed...]]> jgilmore General Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:31:21 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17615#msg-17615 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17615#msg-17615
Quote

We're talking assembled and tested boards here.
I think this is one of the best things we can do (at the moment) to get RepRaps into the Market. I think connecting the board together is less of a problem as many people (although not the mass market) are capable of doing this, or know people who can. Many people can assemble computers, and connecting the boards together is not too dissimilar to that.

Quote

are we focusing on kits?
I see two streams that we need to operate on.

1) The Kits

These are packaging the parts that make a RepRap in a way that someone with basic knowledge and skills can can use to make the RepRap. This is the "Screwdriver" package, where the only tool needed to assemble a RepRap is tools that would exist around any home (Screwdrivers, Hammers, Glue, etc), but if it could be achieved with just a screwdriver (or Alan key - or even snap together) would be optimal.

2) Instructions

This stream is about documenting the process needed to assemble the RepRap Kit (as in stream 1) so that the majority of the population would be able to follow it.

This would feed back into the Kit development stream as needs for simplifying the instructions could be achieved by changing the design of the Kit (and changes to the Kit will require changes to the instructions too).

Because both streams effect each other, both will need to be done simultaneously, or decisions made for one stream might have to be revised so that the goals of the other stream can be achieved. As in any engineering project (hardware of software), if you have to change a decision that has already been made, the more things that depend on that decision means that more thing will have to be changed and more work will be needed to make those changes.

Which reminds me of a joke:

How many software engineers does it take to change a light bulb?

None, it is a hardware problem.

How many Electricians does it take to change a light bulb?

None, we can fix it with software.

:D]]> Edtharan General Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:36:24 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17596#msg-17596 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17596#msg-17596
Hopefully it starts looking coherent and we can give people links to it when they get stuck on the other one.

Demented]]> Demented Chihuahua General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:02:54 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17593#msg-17593 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17593#msg-17593
I e-mailed Dr. Bowyer and we'll see where it goes, but I won't press the matter beyond that.


so..

are we focusing on kits? or is that just that they are easiest to add right away?

As Forrest Suggested, i'm building a Darwin Right now so i'll document as best as I can and take responsibility for polishing up the cartesian bot page.

Regarding format: I think I will break up the cartesian bot into several pages to make it more manageable. does that sound good?

-Leav]]> Leav General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:21:26 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17579#msg-17579 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17579#msg-17579
Well...do you have access to the wiki and such to make the changes? Cause I don't. That's what I mean. Adrian says he wants it in the Wiki. Being the beneficent dictator for life (to steal a phrase from Python), that is about it for that.

Unless of course you want to host it somewhere else...don't know about that either. Don't want to split the project into documentation and other stuff.

Demented]]> Demented Chihuahua General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:53:21 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17575#msg-17575 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17575#msg-17575 -------------------------------------------------------
> Sort of agree with Leav on this but I don't see as
> there is much else to do.

why? there is no technical obstacle.

I really think this should happen. and it's not that big a deal to do.
Otherwise it will all just be a big mess.]]> Leav General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:23:56 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17568#msg-17568 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17568#msg-17568 Forrest Higgs General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:53:13 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17566#msg-17566 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17566#msg-17566
Demented]]> Demented Chihuahua General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:39:32 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17565#msg-17565 Re: RepRap near future https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,17423,17565#msg-17565 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> As to Assembled Darwin boards...That would be
> awesome if the price were reasonable. What are
> they talking?
>
They said they'd have to redesign the boards for surface mount, which they are able to manufacture more efficiently. The markup percentages for assembly and testing didn't seem hideous. This is all very, very preliminary and may come to nothing, mind.]]> Forrest Higgs General Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:23:55 -0400