It takes a four person team with degrees in Aerospace, Electrical, Mechanical, and Software engineering to copy the Rostock, designed by one guy, and make it with extrusions. [url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deltamaker/deltamaker-an-elegant-3d-printer-0?ref=live]http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deltamaker/deltamaker-an-elegant-3d-printer-0?ref=live[/url] Worse yet, they don't even credit Johann Rocholl for the design.. only his Marlin fork that supports it. Who needs a degree in software engineering to copy and download stuff written by others? Sheesh. https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179577#msg-179577 Mon, 13 Jul 2026 15:26:49 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181808#msg-181808 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181808#msg-181808
Not that this protects the OSHW person much. So far (the relatively few OSHW)people with/in companies just dare to trust that they wont get ripped off too much. And apparently often, well they're not so ripped off that they cant run the business. It also seems that OSHW companies have some similar things protecting plain coding open source. A lot of the value is in the community,(they may have your code but they dont know if your particular code is useful, and would need to learn it) or in services.(Github users arent going to move fast..)

But i really doubt this would work if 3dp manifacturing was really easy? For instance if there were a website that did the 3dp, for costumer and the designer got a (decent) cut of the income.(Actually there was at least one but lost the link atm) It would be trivial for a second user to re-upload the thing. It might be a pain to try get rid of all of them. I suppose maybe all the 'makers' could just subscribe especially, provably assigned to real names in order to make money from the uploaded designs. Getting banned in that case would be a pain in the ass.(But that doesnt cover the possibility of competing services)

I have been thinking about how to make such a website,(and successful) the relation to what exists now. I believe it would be useful also when home manifacturing doesnt take off. OSHW people can home manifacture/develop, and put stuff on those services. Even if it does take off, there is the matter of vitamins. Even if it does take off, it could end up at say 50% of homes, so half of the homes could still be using those 3dp services.

Obviously it is important that the successful services like that are benevolent..]]> Jasper1984 General Sun, 03 Feb 2013 22:17:36 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181547#msg-181547 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181547#msg-181547 -------------------------------------------------------
> Worse yet, they don't even credit Johann Rocholl
> for the design.. only his Marlin fork that
> supports it.
> Who needs a degree in software engineering to copy
> and download stuff written by others?
> Sheesh.

Johann has made a post on this subject : [groups.google.com]

Seems that he does not have a problem with the DeltaMaker.]]> bobc General Sat, 02 Feb 2013 21:35:26 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181502#msg-181502 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181502#msg-181502 waitaki General Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:36:38 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181405#msg-181405 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181405#msg-181405 -------------------------------------------------------
> I just feel it would be nice if Kickstarter was
> used by people like students, or housewives who
> have a great original idea but insufficient funds
> to turn it into a reality,

I believe that Kickstarter can and does allow that. Deltamaker are not preventing anyone else raising funds, so where is the problem?

> They just want the cash so
> they can order in bulk and maximize their profits.

And what is wrong with that? In that respect they are no different to any other company. Apple Computer Inc (AAPL) springs to mind. Caveat emptor would seem to apply.

The way I see these Kickstarter projects is they are essentially group purchasing schemes. If you don't like them, don't pledge money, it's as simple as that. There is some risk attached, but then there is no 100% guarantee on delivery of any product you buy - just ask the customers of "World of Leather". I don't know what the history of KS is like with "failed" projects, and there have been some projects that have raised $millions and have yet to deliver. I know there are some projects which have decided to refund pledges becauuse they had to abandon the project. If a project disappears with $100,000s then there are going to be a lot of complaints, which might affect how KS do things, but I don't think it has happened yet.

There are some interesting technical aspects to the Deltamaker, which are worth discussing. All the other stuff about who copied who and the mechanism and morality of Kickstarter projects is really just noise.

Makerslide is nice, but a problem with these custom parts is that shipping outside country of origin can be a killer. I discovered that Makerslide is now available in Europe through [www.makerslideeurope.com]. As far as I can tell, there is nothing special about the Deltamaker that could not be reproduced in an open source design.]]> bobc General Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:29:29 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181395#msg-181395 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181395#msg-181395 -------------------------------------------------------
> C'mon BobC, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Indeed, I was expressing mine.]]> bobc General Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:00:04 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181376#msg-181376 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181376#msg-181376
Having all the money from start stacks on top of the above advantages.]]> Traumflug General Sat, 02 Feb 2013 05:57:21 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181335#msg-181335 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181335#msg-181335 waitaki General Sat, 02 Feb 2013 01:36:06 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181167#msg-181167 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,181167#msg-181167 konwiddak General Fri, 01 Feb 2013 11:38:24 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180813#msg-180813 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180813#msg-180813 The point I was trying to make, which I clearly didn't convey well was as follows:-

There are 4 professional people in the organisation, who tell you they have lots of experience and a long career record. I read from this that they all have earned or are earning a decent wage.

To four people with that combined income, why are they asking for complete strangers to take all the risk in their venture.

It would be easy enough for them all to dip in their own pockets and completely fund the project for much less than they are asking for.

OK I said 150K not 107K, but the point is it seems an awful lot of money for 4 professionals to ask for, when they are giving away no equity and taking no risk for a company that anyone could start up in their own shed for much less.

I don't mind who asks for my money and who goes on kickstarter, but I will voice my opinion as you do when I think I smell a rat!

I just feel it would be nice if Kickstarter was used by people like students, or housewives who have a great original idea but insufficient funds to turn it into a reality, not professional engineers who won't put their own money up front or just want to get some cash in the bank before they place any orders. I also don't buy the "Testing the market" argument......Test it with your own money.

As stated before I can understand if they require funding for large expenses such as injection tooling etc. but as i can see there are no upfront expenses to this business, that's the beauty of rapid prototyping the parts. Even soft tooling for the limited number of parts wouldn't come to anywhere near this. They just want the cash so they can order in bulk and maximize their profits. As you can see by the price of the finished machines even fully assembled they are not passing these savings onto the customer.

If you look through Kickstarter they are by no means the only ones who are doing this.

By the way Kickstarter projects of this type need to display a working prototype....its in the Kickstarter rules.]]> martinprice2004 General Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:59:45 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180555#msg-180555 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180555#msg-180555
Well at least this way no one can accuse them of asking people to take on much risk by investing in them, since the product is already baked :-P]]> crispy1 General Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:44:52 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180524#msg-180524 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180524#msg-180524 -------------------------------------------------------
> What upsets me is how they are hijacking
> kickstarter. Both I and Johann developed our
> robots in a few months without external funding.
> The total cost must have been less than £400 in
> my case. I had no need to raise $150,000 before I
> got started.

They have already developed it, that's not what they are asking money for. Check out their Project Mission:

We will provide our backers with a 3D printer that runs faster, looks better, and is just more fun to watch. With the help of our Kickstarter supporters, we will put DeltaMakers on as many desktops, and inside as many classrooms, as we can. We will complete and deliver our Kickstarter project in a timely and transparent manner, maintaining an active dialogue with our backers throughout the process.

They are running the kickstarter to provide their backers with assembled, ready to run printers (200 or so of them in total). The design itself is almost completely finalized, according to them. So what they actually are kickstarting is their business to sell mass produced delta printers.]]> ttsalo General Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:57:17 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180339#msg-180339 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180339#msg-180339 -------------------------------------------------------
> What upsets me is how they are hijacking
> kickstarter. Both I and Johann developed our
> robots in a few months without external funding.
> The total cost must have been less than £400 in
> my case. I had no need to raise $150,000 before I
> got started.

That comparison doesn't make any sense, and is not even the right number! Are you saying that because you did not avail yourself of Kickstarter, no one else should be allowed to?

> Kickstarter is for funding projects that need
> initial investment for tooling etc. which
> otherwise would not get off the ground. Unless
> they are using the startup money for injection
> moulding tooling or something, this is just an
> excuse to get money in the bank for something that
> they could do on their own. By the looks of their
> site its already setup and there is no need for
> funding.

So now we are policing Kickstarter projects on behalf of Kickstarter? I am pretty sure we can leave that to them. They have a definition for what constitutes a valid campaign, and if you read their guidelines it seems to fit.]]> bobc General Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:15:50 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180337#msg-180337 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180337#msg-180337 -------------------------------------------------------
> bobc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If I write my own image
> > manipulation program, I don't have to give
> credit
> > to GIMP.
> If it uses GIMP code yes you do, and it has to be
> released under GPL.

By "my own" I mean "not using someone else's code". Surely that is just reading comprehension. I've no idea how you managed to construe the exact opposite of what I said.

However, we do agree.]]> bobc General Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:03:43 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180203#msg-180203 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180203#msg-180203
If they don't release their designs or firmware, probably the best way to stick it to them is find someone who has one of their machines and copy the firmware, photograph / reverse engineer the parts and post all the designs up online. They would have to be foolish to take anyone to court.

What upsets me is how they are hijacking kickstarter. Both I and Johann developed our robots in a few months without external funding. The total cost must have been less than £400 in my case. I had no need to raise $150,000 before I got started.

Kickstarter is for funding projects that need initial investment for tooling etc. which otherwise would not get off the ground. Unless they are using the startup money for injection moulding tooling or something, this is just an excuse to get money in the bank for something that they could do on their own. By the looks of their site its already setup and there is no need for funding.

On the subject of firmware, my Helium Frog firmware calculated position on the fly. Each loop it calculated expected postion using move time and then moved the robot to it in a sort of closed control loop. It worked quite well. As the delta calculations are trivial, I would expect it could work for fast travel without issue as the loop time is extremely small. As the moves get faster and faster, the error and segmentation would increase a little, but this is much better than having a fixed number of steps for long moves.]]> martinprice2004 General Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:52:34 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180170#msg-180170 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180170#msg-180170 -------------------------------------------------------
> Polygonhell Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FWIW of the 3 printers I have running, the
> delta
> > produces the most consistent layer alignment.
>
> Not-wild guess.. Your other printers all have
> screws for Z?

Yes and I agree this is at least part of the problem, but I think you gain something from 3 identical axis as well, any error is consistent across all the directions of motion.
I had a really cool print failure trying to dial te delta in where one stepper was intermittently skipping causing the entire print to gradually twist over.]]> Polygonhell General Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:02:30 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180017#msg-180017 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,180017#msg-180017 -------------------------------------------------------
> FWIW of the 3 printers I have running, the delta
> produces the most consistent layer alignment.

Not-wild guess.. Your other printers all have screws for Z?]]> billyzelsnack General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:38:16 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179978#msg-179978 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179978#msg-179978
But that's the cool thing about the rostock/delta design I think it looks pretty scalable.

Anyways I think proper firmwares need to be in place for the deltas before we worry about redesigning them.]]> xclusive585 General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:18:05 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179977#msg-179977 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179977#msg-179977
1499$ for a makerslide rostock, no fucking way! can't belive people are willing to pay this much for it. Shouldn't even be 699$ more like 500]]> Asger General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:15:03 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179976#msg-179976 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179976#msg-179976
Even if they don't release the designs, it would be a very easy design to recreate. I am sure that someone who is well versed with the rostock could redesign it to copy their designs in a day or two. Anyone up to the challenge?

Personally I think that the Rostock/deltamaker designs need to be made wider. Is there some limitation of the delta armature that prevents this?]]> jzatopa General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:12:45 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179975#msg-179975 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179975#msg-179975
I think ARM is the way to go, to get the processing power needed while still using a package that is a programmable SOC setup.

(We can start a thread somewhere whenever, I'm still a couple weeks from even getting the parts for a delta let alone have a working unit)]]> xclusive585 General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:12:29 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179970#msg-179970 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179970#msg-179970 -------------------------------------------------------
> ... this was mainly the reason I've dropped the
> delta idea and stayed with cartesian machines for
> my projects ... and why I'm eager after some
> 'mature' software with 'path-planning' or
> look-ahead for parallel kinematics ;)
>
> My first approach was too dividing the cartesian
> XYZ-move into smallest pieces and recalculate the
> displacement of starting-to-endpoint by
> ABC-angles.

I did the math (though I wouldn't rule out errors on my part) and even with Marlins somewhat bogus approach of basing the number of segments on the time to target (which I assume is based on performance issues) , rather than making it error tolerance based, for most moves the accuracy is better than the microsteps on the steppers and the slop in the universal joints. But I don't need sub micron accuracy.
FWIW of the 3 printers I have running, the delta produces the most consistent layer alignment.
I suspect you'd need a much faster processor to do the correction in the planner, but I might get around to looking at it at some point, I have a couple of 800Mhz ARM boards around that ought to be more than enough.]]> Polygonhell General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:42:59 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179939#msg-179939 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179939#msg-179939
I have mixed views on some of the 3d printer kickstarter projects. It’s so evident it’s all about the money. At the very least it helps spread the technology, but is it by taking advantage of unknowing people?* these projects don’t bring anything new, it’s the same reprap with a different packaging… but more expensive (!). You can build a reprap for 400 bucks (not sure about rostock, maybe around 600).

So the 40k – 100k are not for backing up say, research, or equipment for a new original thing, but for establishing a business. I thought that was not the point of kickstarter, that would be alright in indiegogo I guess.]]> Pixbae General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:28:24 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179890#msg-179890 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179890#msg-179890 -------------------------------------------------------
> If it uses GIMP code yes you do, and it has to be
> released under GPL.

Yes, but do you have any proof so this is the case here? What sense does it make to take OpenSCAD design file of this printed strut and modify it into this? Wouldn't it be actually simpler to design them from scratch (beside the fact they look like normalized piece of hardware just cut to size)? Especially if they possibly used different CAD.]]> miso General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:08:00 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179855#msg-179855 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179855#msg-179855
My first approach was too dividing the cartesian XYZ-move into smallest pieces and recalculate the displacement of starting-to-endpoint by ABC-angles.

With our goal of microns resolution the sheer amount of data was overwhelming ... and even with 0.005mm step resolution of the linear drives the 'ripples' on horizontal planes, caused by this angular movement (in contrary to absolute even planes with XYZ-moving) were enough to frustrate the customer, so we reverted again to cartesian mechanics 8-)

But the delta is perfect for lasercutting with a 'remote' optical head from a fiberlaser, so I've used this successfully for a micro-laser-welding system and for some tests with 'additive fusing' (a sort of SLS) ;)]]> VDX General Mon, 28 Jan 2013 02:39:57 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179829#msg-179829 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179829#msg-179829 The current solutions in both Repetier and Marlin, are basically a hack, they break down the move into a bunch of linear moves and add them to the planner, this causes an issue where sometimes the planner buffer is filled and on long moves very occasionally you get stops mid move. Marlin seems to be more susceptible to it than Repetier, but both will do it.
The "right" solution is to do it when generating the step pulses, but that's hard and might not be practical without more CPU cycles.]]> Polygonhell General Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:44:05 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179826#msg-179826 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179826#msg-179826 -------------------------------------------------------
> Is there any reason to expect that they'd alter
> the firmware?


As companies head down the proprietary road, yes. Especially if they have a decent software engineer they will most definitely in time start altering the firmware. This could be beneficial to us however if they do a good job. :-)]]> xclusive585 General Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:34:36 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179823#msg-179823 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179823#msg-179823 -------------------------------------------------------
> And if they alter the firmware for their machine
> they are responsible for releasing the source
> under GPL, that is a fact.
>
> Let's hope they abide.


Why would you assume they wouldn't?
It would have been nice to mention being inspired by the Rostock, but outside of that I don't see anything particularly disingenuous in what they are doing.
I could live without the team of experts speak on their Kickstarter page, but it's not hurting anyone.]]> Polygonhell General Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:18:32 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179822#msg-179822 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179822#msg-179822 billyzelsnack General Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:16:39 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179821#msg-179821 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179821#msg-179821
Let's hope they abide.]]> xclusive585 General Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:10:52 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179815#msg-179815 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,179577,179815#msg-179815 -------------------------------------------------------
> Anyways:
> I don't want to argue about this and you are
> correct about the hardware aspect of it
> absolutely. But there is alot of gray area here
> with the specific reprap designs being released
> under GPL, and this design looking alot like it..

Actually this is a good opportunity to talk about this gray area. What specifically do these guys owe and to whom?

My feeling on the matter is that it is respectful to cite Johann's work because he showed the feasibility of this mechanism for printing. I'm not sure what else beyond that is owed to anybody.]]> billyzelsnack General Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:35:17 -0500