crazy idea - school program

Regular communication

dadederakh — Sat, 30 May 2009 06:57:05 -0400

Hello! Sorry to vanish on everyone; I had some big things to deal with the last few months (basically I just started my life over again).
I still want to see this project materialize!

Needed:
FUNDING (educational grants are the first thing that comes to mind, so i'll put my English lit degree to some use there, but anyone with experince in such things would be a big help; next would be funding provided by the school or donations) It would help to have an NPO to organize this under and get credibility for grants or donations. That could be done under the umbrella of the RepRap community or independently, but under the RepRap.org banner would be best to get attention both for this project and RepRap development.
EDUCATORS (strictly volunteer work here. If we're lucky there might be money for transportation costs but don't expect to make any profit out of this, especially on the first run I imagine everyone involved will need a good deal of personal time and savings to expend. It looks like we have some interested and qualified members here so start thinking seriously about how much time you could devote to the project and how you'll support yourself while working on it. What I have in mind at the moment is at minimum cost, considering the class could be anywhere in the world, we rent out a single room in a hostel or super cheap apartment for six months and rotate experts as needed while a few generalists and whoever's in charge stay the whole time. It'll be like camp!)
MATERIALS (separate from funding, as much material as can be must be gathered through donation. In particular this forum could be used to start a drive for donating reprapped parts. We'd need enough to make three or four machines at the least)
LOCATION (things to consider: somewhere accessible to the worlwide reprap community, somewhere in need, somewhere safe, etc. i'd love to do this in a developing nation, but it's going to be tough to did somewhere our more knowledgable members and specialists can all get to at a reasonable cost and be able to spend at least a week or a few weeks)
COMMITMENT (I have to work on this as well, but this really could become more than a pipe dream. This is going to require support from the RepRap core team as well as several experienced members. If the class gets four RepRaps up and running, as well as producing something useful on them, in six months while educating a class full of kids in industrial, mechanical, electrical and software engineering; we must work HARD and it will take a year or so's prep time.)

PS: I'm back! Now living in Oita, Japan and working as a self employed English teacher.

Re: crazy idea - school program

obscurite — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:24:45 -0500

Just a quick update.

David thanks for the reply. Hopefully we can all collaborate on how to get interdepartmental college projects funded, though it is likely very school-specific. I'm not even sure who's going to fund our project yet - perhaps the clubs and departments themselves.

I will go to the wiki in the next couple of days and add some more educational notes. Thanks again Sebastien.

Oh, and we still need a project mentor for this. I expect this project will mature over the next 12-18 months so that's the commitment required - communication by email is fine if it's regular.

-Daniel

Re: crazy idea - school program

logan — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:49:11 -0500

About making PCB's in class vs. buying them from rrrf, I'd defenetly go with letting them make their own. have the schematics ready, and let them draw up the curcuits on the board, but depending on their age, its probably best if you do the dipping in acid yourself. :)

Re: crazy idea - school program

dadederakh — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:47:13 -0500

Hey this is really progressing!

Thank you for the wiki Sebastien!

I've been absent from the forum for a while as I had a lot of work to do.

Is there someone here who's good with grant proposals? I don't know if it would be possible to fund a project by grant the first time, but if it is a success then we could repeat the project at other schools, hopefully in other countries, using public funding.

Also, I'm concerned about what the students should be provided.

If the project goes with Darwin:
Regarding the structural components: the cheapest way to get the reprapped parts is to have fellow reprappers donate them. I think it's important to provide these parts since they cannot be purchased. Another option is to mass-order laser cut parts, but that would complicate the project and add a lot of unnecessary learning material.
The other structural hardware can all be purchased in bulk. We can cut rods and screws to size in class.
As for the Electronics: Here's a question for developing a curriculum. Do we teach students how to make PCBs from raw silicon boards (cheapest material, but involves using acid, etc) or skip that process and give them prepared PCBs from the RRRF? Either way, students can solder the components on themselves.
And the software: >>obscurite Oh I'm happy a CS major is interested in this! Another curriculum question: Do we teach students how to compile the software from scratch (highschool or college level students) or skip that process as well and use binaries or the LiveCD?

If the project goes with Tommelise or another RepStrap:
i have no idea :D

Re: crazy idea - school program

obscurite — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:13:06 -0500

SebastienBailard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've created a page on the new wiki for RepRap in
> Education. Edit away:
>
> [objects.reprap.org]

Sebastien you are the man!

-Daniel

Re: crazy idea - school program

SebastienBailard — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 06:34:59 -0400

I've created a page on the new wiki for RepRap in Education. Edit away:

[objects.reprap.org]

Re: crazy idea - school program

obscurite — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:44:01 -0400

Thanks Forrest. My main concern is in having good mentorship and community to get the project moving.

For example, for the next week or so I will be going through the reprap host software and firmware code looking for learning opportunities and it would be helpful to have a connection to someone who works on this software to jumpstart this process. I'll keep posting here and try to make some connections. Any suggestions are welcome.

-Daniel

Forrest Higgs Wrote:
> The two projects differ profoundly in hardware,
> software and electronics. You want to make a
> Darwin, I think.

Re: crazy idea - school program

Forrest Higgs — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:36:11 -0400

obscurite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The question is, how would Tommelise affect the
> project vs. Darwin? Does Tommelise differ
> significantly in electronics and software? Would
> we be diverging from the Darwin project
> completely?
>
The two projects differ profoundly in hardware, software and electronics. You want to make a Darwin, I think.

Re: crazy idea - school program

obscurite — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:30:31 -0400

Thanks Forrest, maybe this would be a good match. The question is, how would Tommelise affect the project vs. Darwin? Does Tommelise differ significantly in electronics and software? Would we be diverging from the Darwin project completely? Would our contributions help both projects? Thanks for fielding all the questions. ;)

The goal is to have a rotating project with a few contributors at any one time building on the work of previous team members, from both the CS and Engineering departments. We do have a machine shop on campus but I don't yet know how friendly they will be to this project. I am pretty sure we can get access to the electronics labs, for what that's worth.

Re: crazy idea - school program

Forrest Higgs — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:14:15 -0400

I'd be happy to, except that I'm guessing that you're going to be building a Darwin, right? I'm doing the Tommelise project and haven't taken time to build a conventional Darwin. (:D

Re: crazy idea - school program

obscurite — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:55:46 -0400

Heh, you're right - objectively speaking Santa Rosa is relatively urban and well connected, considering the proximity to the SF Bay. However, as a newcomer who does not yet drive (this is going to happen in the next month hopefully) I've obviously developed a skewed perspective having grown up in NYC.

Hopefully I'll get to meet some of the SF Bay area people who are posting to the user group thread.

Anyone interested in being a mentor for this project? I promise I'll buy you lunch.

Re: crazy idea - school program

Forrest Higgs — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:03:19 -0400

Santa Rosa is "isolated"? :S

Re: crazy idea - school program

obscurite — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:44:04 -0400

I'm one of many people who want to do a project at their university. However, I am fairly isolated and don't have all of the expertise needed to get started. Is there enough demand to set up a kind of mentoring program where experienced reprappers hook up with others so they can share the knowledge and spread the message?

I got approved to write up a software proposal for CS course work credit, so that's what I'm looking at now, but the hardware side will be just as important - it's just that I am a CS major. Both the CS and Engineering Science departments are into it and supportive.

-Daniel

Re: crazy idea - school program

tofletcher — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 07:50:30 -0400

Sorry guys, I have just found this thread,

It is entirely possible to run a machine without connection to a PC. As far as I can see a PC is still needed to prepare files but after that dump the G-Code onto portable media and go run off the parts.

My machine runs exactly like this, there is a board with LCD screen and a joystick with buttons, with this you can pop in the SD card and scroll through the files, pick the part to print and off you go.

If you strip out the working parts and do a bespoke board for the machine, it has potential to be an extremely low cost solution. This is the long term plan for the design.

Have a look at the builders blog to see a little more of the potential for this approach

Tony.

Re: crazy idea - school program

dadederakh — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:36:05 -0400

>>nophead & Bruce
Incredible! Just wanted to say that.

Re: crazy idea - school program

brucew — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:50:47 -0400

I am working on a 2 or 4 line LCD and 5 buttons not to one up you Nophead.

The chip we are using (microchip mcp23017) only uses 2 data wires from Arduino / Sanguino this will control an 8 bit LCD and 5 buttons using I2C.

I think that a menu system will work fine you will be able to select and load a file move the head of the machine and if we find we need more buttons you would just have to add a 2nd board since we are using I2C communication you can add up to 7 boards. if you are using only one display then the 2nd board could be used for all control buttons.

The only thing I see is the changing of a settings file it could be done with the buttons and LCD but I think that might be done outside of the machine for now. So I think this will allow us to use the same gcode file for each machine and have a settings file that will be set for the individual machine.

Bruce Wattendorf

Re: crazy idea - school program

nophead — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:22:34 -0400

I recently added a 16 character LCD and four buttons to a project for <

Re: crazy idea - school program

Forrest Higgs — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:08:37 -0400

Leav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> (or so I assume, I am not aa policy maker)
> ("print cartridges" are just one way of detaching
> the RepRap from the PC of course)
>
Yup, Zach is making Sanguino SD compatible with that in mind, I think.

The problem with making Reprap completely off-line capable is that your microcontroller board(s) have to start looking more and more like a PC, not so much in computing power but in the ability to handle the basics of a user interface, viz, a keypad and some sort of display. Zach and Bruce Wattendorf are presently fielding an LCD display for Sanguino.

My take on it all is that by the time you make a Reprap autonomous you've added the cost of a really cheap PC to it without the getting the benefit of having the PC. With Tommelise, I am presently using big EEPROMS and will eventually go to SD cards, but I'm sticking with a "not always running" PC to do the user interface job.

Re: crazy idea - school program

Leav — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:40:26 -0400

Forrest,

While people are still working tightly with a computer, this makes sense.
When RepRap starts spreading into places where the access to the computer (or the power) is limited, "print cartridges" (SD cards preloaded with designs) will become a priority.

(or so I assume, I am not aa policy maker)
("print cartridges" are just one way of detaching the RepRap from the PC of course)

-Leav

Re: crazy idea - school program

Forrest Higgs — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:57:49 -0400

Viral distribution of a 3D printer that is strongly linked to a PC, regardless of it's OS, makes nonsense of the notion that Reprap is supposed to be a low energy device that can be run off of a car battery. 8-)

Re: crazy idea

dadederakh — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 05:40:19 -0400

>>Wade
Great! We'll need anybody with any teaching experience! And you're right, we do need to take some time to plan what machine and how to use it.

>>nophead
Regardless of the architecture, there must be some version of the software that runs in every operating system currently used on home computers, including windows, and it must run easily; ie, no compile, no installing an interpreter, no emulation, etc. at least, the user must not need to know if these things are happening and must not need to make any complex changes to their system. Take a look at the language in your last post and ask yourself "Does this really make sense to the average Joe?"

>>John
You are right, commercial and viral distribution do not mix; keep in mind no one is going to distribute windows with reprap software. Making free software for a commercial os that is by and large the most common worldwide (as much as that makes me cry) is actually a good idea: and still free.

Re: crazy idea

nophead — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:02:42 -0400

Yes all the problems seen in the forums seem to be Java rather than anything to do with which OS is used.

The reason there is no Python installer is that you don't need to install Python programs. You just dump the files in a directory and run them. On a Linux machine Python itself is generally already installed. On Windows it's a simple download and install from Activestate.

Re: crazy idea

jgilmore — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:53:09 -0400

Forrest, you are not alone in that opinion. We have a serious problem. You ARE however, alone in your approach. From what I can see, it's a "commercial is fine as long as it's reasonably low-cost" approach. Which is fine as far as it goes, but doesn't work for me (I don't own a copy of windows) or for people with strictly-limited budgets. I imagine there are probably other reasons to reject the commercial software scene as well, such as difficult distributing the live-cd, philisophical differences, etc. Ultimately, no von-neumman machine that's based on per-processor licensing makes much sense. If you have to pay per copy, "viral replication" doesn't work.

I'm of the opinion that Java is a joke, and python is the way to go. Nobody has made a python-all-in-one installer for windows with skienforge etc. preloaded, but there's no reason I know of not to. Except that the installation is so much simpler than the Java install that it hasn't been needed? Python install questions on the forums are quite limited. That MAY of course be because most people are using Java, but I think the install is much less prone to problems as well.

The CAD environment still being up in the air is a major sticking point, but I think it's mainly because there is no open-source package that really meets our needs yet. Maybe when the new BRL-CAD frontend is done? Blender will always be extremely intimidating for beginers, I think. And AoI has a LONG way to go, nevermind that it's Java and therefore subject to the same installation problems.

Re: crazy idea

Forrest Higgs — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:07:01 -0400

nophead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All the RepRap software is cross platf::oorm and so
> is the alternative Python stuff so I can't see
> Forrest's point. How can having it tied to Windows
> make it any easier for people to use?
>
Neither can any of the other core reprap team. I just watch the threads posted by people struggling to get things running and think that that is telling us that we have a serious problem. I'm apparently alone in that opinion. ::o

Re: crazy idea

nophead — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:23:03 -0400

All the RepRap software is cross platform and so is the alternative Python stuff so I can't see Forrest's point. How can having it tied to Windows make it any easier for people to use?

As it is people can pick the OS they are most familiar with. There may be different bugs on different platforms but they will get fixed.

Re: crazy idea

Wade — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:38:56 -0400

This sounds like a lot of fun, and a great idea to boot! I'd be interested in helping out as well. I have a small amount of teaching experience in adventure sports, but not much for actual in the classroom teaching. I am a good generalist though, and can debug just about anything, especially electronics. I'm currently in eastern Canada, but plan to be in Australia this winter.

As for the OS and even Reprap/repstrap/??? arguments, I think it's a bit early to tell yet what's going to work. As far as I know, we've only really had a single replicated machine that works. My Darwin has only started producing usable parts this past week. Once we get a small base of machines up and running reliably and producing parts we'll be in a better position to start talking about which design or OS or host software we should standardize on.

The nice thing about the Gcode format is that it's mostly independent of host software. Yesterday I ran my Darwin off Ubuntu, Xandros, and Windows Xp, and I nearly ran out and bought a Mac out of frustration. I may still buy one, actually. :) But it's working now, and I really don't care what OS it's on, as long as I get little shiny trinkets out of it. :)

Wade

Re: crazy idea

dadederakh — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 05:45:30 -0400

Also, as far as software goes, hopefully development on the Live CD will provide a one-size-fits-all solution. I really don't see any other way as viable for viral distribution.

Sure, people who can and want to should compile their own software, and there will be cases of custom setups and applications; but in the case of kids, hobbyists, novices, etc. ONE cd (dvd may be pushing it) with ONE integrated software setup is MUCH better. Ordinary people obviously don't care what type of architecture it's built on so long as it works.

Re: crazy idea

dadederakh — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:49:45 -0400

>>Forrest

I'll have to draw up some rules of conduct for volunteers. The promotion of any religion, including Torvaldsim, will be strictly banned. lol.

Yeah, I know not everyone in the community is a trained educator. I have enough experience to give a few pointers, but this is what curricula are for: Draw out a plan of exactly what to teach, step by step toward a specific goal, incrementally building on the knowledge gained in the previous step; severely critique each piece of information in each step and reject anything unnecessary; include flexibility to repeat or revise steps all along the way.

Re: crazy idea

Forrest Higgs — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 02:59:41 -0400

Sorry everybody. The thread didn't split cleanly. I had to copy most of the messages across.

Re: crazy idea

Forrest Higgs — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 02:59:00 -0400

Re: Reprap-able generator: STL files included!
Posted by: Forrest Higgs (69-12-229-157.static.dsl.mbay.net) (Core RepRap member)
Date: October 24, 2008 07:42PM

Well, if you want to do all that with Darwin ... have fun. You're going to need all those people to get training with that rascal going properly. My big fear with Darwin is that they're going to try to the song and dance about the gospel according to Saint Linus Torvalds and then try to show people how to hold their little finger while doing builds for half a hundred possible configurations of Linux and their audience is going to go glassy eyed. smileys with beer

Right now, the Darwin community is largely self-selecting for people who like geeking around with things like Linux, Java and C and sharing a common faith that some bright morning the whole world is going to wake up and realise that they need to adopt that true faith. That's fine as far as it goes. No harm in it at all. The mindset does, however, make addressing a much larger audience of people who haven't the obsessiveness to get into all that really problematical.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2008 07:49PM by Forrest Higgs.