Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 I've started a debate with Zach about whether the Sanguino motherboard should support USB to read a flash drive over reading from SD card. Thumbs up for you would prefer having the mobo read a USB flash/thumb drive (tu) or Thumbs down for keeping the SD card slot (td) Personally I don't have a device which I can attach to my computer to write files to an SD card so this would be an unforeseen extra expense. So i'm (tu) for having USB supported in a future revision of the board I do realise that it is a lot harder to program USB hosting capability in an embedded device, but the trade off would be that anyone can design something, go to someone with a RepRap to print something out, while they themselves may not really want a 3D printer yet. https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25324#msg-25324 Sat, 16 May 2026 04:48:50 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25792#msg-25792 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25792#msg-25792
... did you receive my email regarding milling the 8mm-holes?

Viktor]]> VDX General Mon, 03 Aug 2009 05:47:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25783#msg-25783 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25783#msg-25783 So, got home quickly, for reporting my own post ;)

Stupid me shouldn't post in forums when not awake :D

So since the first of my "not at home" posts is gone already,
here the full set of information bundled:
I've read about that issue some month ago at:
[www.riccibitti.com]
Here a short quote
Quote

.... I got a broken card (the 1 GB Kingston, but I know of a 512MB Peak with similar issues). Before its final breathe, I noticed sporadic directory corruptions. This usually happened after writing about 500MB...2GB of data, but the card was still functional after reformatting. Then things got worse, and now I'm unable to reformat or use it anymore.
To date, the cause of this problem is not clear.
.....
Thinking of a bug in the AVR-DOS library (Franz Joseph Voegel) ...
The code worked for days of continuous recording, writing many GB of flawless data.
....
this could be a card wearout problem, as the AVR continually rewrites the FAT (file allocation table) and the directories as it is writing a new file. If the number of writes of a logic sector is limited, then the sectors assigned to the FAT and DIR could exceed the maximum numbers of rewrites quite rapidly.

And now "ab ins Bett" since I'm obviously not in working condition ;9

'sid]]> sid General Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:06:08 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25782#msg-25782 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25782#msg-25782 Forrest Higgs General Sun, 02 Aug 2009 20:51:27 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25781#msg-25781 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25781#msg-25781 please merge ;)

stupid me forgot to READ!
I'll quote further on:
Quote

Initially I tought of a bug in the code, so I checked stack sizes, removed unnecessary interrupt code, and placed error traps on the AVR-DOS calls. The traps intercepted an error 23 and "file not found" errors, so I inspected the card with the FS-Interpreter tool. What I found was an apparently-good subdirectory, except it missed the links to the parent directory. This drives the file deletion system crazy.

Thinking of a bug in the AVR-DOS library, I contacted its Author, Franz Joseph Voegel, and he was so kind to try a debug version of the code on his system (using both compactflash and hard disk drives). The code worked for days of continuous recording, writing many GB of flawless data.
Joseph suggested that this could be a card wearout problem, as the AVR continually rewrites the FAT (file allocation table) and the directories as it is writing a new file. If the number of writes of a logic sector is limited, then the sectors assigned to the FAT and DIR could exceed the maximum numbers of rewrites quite rapidly. However, creating a flash file system almost invaribly requires you to separate logic sectors from phisical sectors (the ones that actually wear out), so I'm not incline to think SD-card designers overlooked the problem.

I guess that's what I was referring to

'sid]]> sid from.. ah you know General Sun, 02 Aug 2009 20:29:57 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25770#msg-25770 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25770#msg-25770 Really, where did you see that? I would have thought that the SD card would do wear leveling at the block level. After all USB pens and SD cards are the same NAND flash devices with different interfaces. With multi level NAND flash you have to be able to correct errors using Reed Solomon or BEH error correcting codes. About 10000 writes wears out a block, so you have move things about. My understanding is that these things should all be done by the controller in the card or the pen, so the host software using does not have to worry about such details.]]> nophead General Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:08:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25751#msg-25751 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25751#msg-25751
Somehow it's pretty easy to end the cards lifetime in a very short time,
by just making the right errors ;)
For example writing a full fat everytime can blow a 2GB Card in less than 1000 files (write mode).
formating the card will help just one or two times, then it's just a 2GB ROM :(

'sid]]> sid General Sat, 01 Aug 2009 19:03:34 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25742#msg-25742 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25742#msg-25742 jonored General Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:10:32 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25733#msg-25733 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25733#msg-25733 www.dealextreme.com]
Here. $3.66 USD shipped for free anywhere in the world. Direct from China. There are others on the site for even cheaper. SD cards are used everywhere nowadays.]]> NewPerfection General Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:54:10 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25729#msg-25729 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25729#msg-25729
SD reader ~$25
SD/MicroSD ~$35

Its good to know they have em', so until my repstrap is built they are staying on the shelf. I'll experiment with that feature later on

Maybe one day the mobo will have USB hosting capability for flash drives, until then I guess were all have to accept the SD card format.]]> Grogyan General Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:07:43 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25715#msg-25715 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25715#msg-25715 I myself, have in total three old MP3 players , four digital cameras, two digital picture frames
and if you let me count in microSD three Phones no four, that are making use of SD Cards in this household.
And I guess that's pretty average (well at least if you don't throw your old stuff away ;)
Needless to say that I have just one laptop (My good old omnibook 800ct with that beautiful tiny Pop-out mouse... cute) that is incapable of reading them by default.

But yes, I do have more than just one usb flash drive too;
so it doesn't make any difference for me.

Maybe you'll stroll over a flea market one day and you'll find one for cheap.
Until then, you may have a close friend that will let you use his :D

'sid]]> sid General Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:21:58 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25712#msg-25712 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25712#msg-25712
I have not much against using SD cards, I feel as though that with my example, it can be difficult to find and acquire SD card readers/adapters, and after all the running about i'll do to find one, I would have spent that much in travel to the cost of one.

I do realize that i'm all alone here, lol, I just think that to give everyone, regardless of where they are, the ability to use this functionality, and it is easy to find USB flash drives as they are quite ubiquitous, where as SD isn't yet.]]> Grogyan General Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:45:00 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25695#msg-25695 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25695#msg-25695
But honestly, they're not pricey in australia:
[www.crazysales.com.au]

I'm sure you'll find something like that in NZ too.
Just keep your eyes open ;)

Oh btw, if you have a camera that uses SD Cards (which is most likely)
you can use that as a Card reader.
If you have a nokia cellphone. buy micro-sd cards for it from kingston (they come with an sd-card adapter) so you can use your phone as a card reader...

Modern printers come with an inbuild card reader (that IS readable from your PC)
Needless to say that all laptops I've come across lately have an inbuild card reader too.

Well, don't get me wrong,
I've nothing against an usb port
but all that additional (useless) costs are getting us farer from hitting the "500bucks in total" goal, right?

'sid]]> sid General Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:16:16 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25627#msg-25627 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25627#msg-25627
Good to see that they are very cheap in Germany, but its a long bus trip to go for a ~$2 reader, as I live in NZ]]> Grogyan General Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:24:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25622#msg-25622 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25622#msg-25622 SD-Card Reader are not only cheap around here, You'll get them as a present sometimes when you buy a SD-Card
And if not, there is always a 2Bucks Cardreader laying around at the next shop.
this one comes in disgusting colors (mine was yellowish-green and a present for buying a 2GB Card)
[de.sourcingmap.com]

So why do you have to add the 8 dollar Chip again?

'sid]]> sid General Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:05:20 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25619#msg-25619 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25619#msg-25619 unfold General Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:12:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25616#msg-25616 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25616#msg-25616 I know its not easy, just more convenient to buy a flash drive, plop on some stl files and print, without having to try and find a device to write an SD card.

Its easy to buy a reader/writer here in NZ, Aussie, UK and US, I just don't know about everywhere else.

Its even easier to buy a flash drive just about anywhere.]]> Grogyan General Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:01:23 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25562#msg-25562 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25562#msg-25562
What you want implemented, is known as the USB "MSD" (Mass Storage Device), and it's a nasty piece of software implemented in a large number of C and H files. I haven't got it to work yet, although I can mess with the + USB pin state to get the PCB properly recognised by Windows. (probably Linux too). The recommended (demo) pin functionality of USB is actually less clean to implement than for RS232, and I'm not yet certain if it's just the demo schematic implementation, or a weakness in the STM32 USB on board hardware implementation.

I've actually taken a break from it for a couple of weeks, because of my frustrations, and used the time to push forward another project.]]> grael General Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:07:27 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25382#msg-25382 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25382#msg-25382
However regarding asking him to do this: This is a massive amount of work, with very little gain over the current design. I don't want to speak for him, but I expect he would rather spend his time working on real enhancements to the working of the machines. And these days you can pick up SD card readers for next to nothing.]]> greenarrow General Sun, 26 Jul 2009 06:13:25 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25367#msg-25367 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25367#msg-25367

Forrest Higgs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why not have both on the board and let people
> populate whichever one they can get parts for
> easiest? :)-D

This is a good idea, plug in SPI boards, that way, you could choose to have MMC or SD or USB flash.
It could also mean that it is another thing to make them (makerbot) more money.]]> Grogyan General Sun, 26 Jul 2009 02:50:21 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25363#msg-25363 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25363#msg-25363
Even the Sanguino is limited on the amount of RAM it has, my understanding the support for the SD card is taxing that, let along having to add USB overhead to it?

The question is is it worth adding a $8.00 chip and lots of engineering time to save having to buy a $20.00 adapter?

(td)]]> freds General Sat, 25 Jul 2009 23:29:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25362#msg-25362 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25362#msg-25362 Forrest Higgs General Sat, 25 Jul 2009 22:18:16 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25327#msg-25327 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25327#msg-25327 plus support bits (like an actual USB connector and 12MHz crystal), and its about the same.

Its more of convenience to the other person.

A guy has managed to make a breakout board
[www.circuitsathome.com]

And because it uses SPI (on the MAX3421E), it more about coding it than anything else.]]> Grogyan General Sat, 25 Jul 2009 01:37:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25326#msg-25326 Re: Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25326#msg-25326 this would probably cost less than the added complexity of a USB host on the motherboard.]]> NewPerfection General Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:52:43 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25324#msg-25324 Debate over having USB over SD on motherboard V1.2 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?1,25324,25324#msg-25324
Thumbs up for you would prefer having the mobo read a USB flash/thumb drive
(tu)

or

Thumbs down for keeping the SD card slot
(td)

Personally I don't have a device which I can attach to my computer to write files to an SD card so this would be an unforeseen extra expense.

So i'm (tu) for having USB supported in a future revision of the board

I do realise that it is a lot harder to program USB hosting capability in an embedded device, but the trade off would be that anyone can design something, go to someone with a RepRap to print something out, while they themselves may not really want a 3D printer yet.]]> Grogyan General Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:30:18 -0400