No Computers Attached!!! Sod I had an idea a few months ago, and Forrest with his T2 has brought the concept back into focus. The idea is to equip some sort of larger memory capcity to the printer to create a type of cache, where print instructions can be stored until they are ready to be processed by the electronics. Forrest suggested using EEPROM because it is the easiest to implement, and for him, hes says it will allow T2 around 6 hours of uninterrupted printing. This uninterrupted printing is only part of my goal. Like Forrest figured in his blog http://3dreplicators.com/cgi-bin/cblog/index.php?/archives/397-Breaking-the-PCMicrocontroller-comms-bottleneck.html , having the computer running while the printer is running will be about 25% of the cost of printing. This is what makes me want to eliminate the computer from the process of printing entirely. I propose having a bunch of cheap SD or USB sticks which the computer can put all of the printing data onto before the print ever takes place. One would then be able to choose the piece that they would like to print from a library of these sticks. They would then insert the stick into a device which would allow for the electronics to red and print the file contained on the device, without being attached to a computer. [attachment 725 scan0001.jpg] This is where the difficulties come. SD and USB sticks use FAT protocols. I have no idea how to make an arduino or any other PIC impliment these protocols. If someone could figure that out (I'll have a go in about a month or so), then I think reprap could be on its way to having the printer print itself without the need of a computer, or at least a powerful computer. [attachment 726 scan0002.jpg] [attachment 727 Scan0003.jpg] Also, if you create a navigation system on the printer, then one could have a large USB or SD drive, with hundreds of different objects' printing commands stored on it. The user could then scroll through and choose the object they like; again, without the use of a computer. Imagine a box arriving in a 3rd world village. Inside, the contents are a kit for all of the printer's hardware, the pcbs and all the electrical components, a solar panel/wind turbine, and OLPC or EEE and a set or one USB drive which contains all of the information needed to print the parts for another printer. The impact would be incredible! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,11870#msg-11870 Mon, 09 Mar 2026 17:53:34 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,15736#msg-15736 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,15736#msg-15736
The little thing has decent processing, and the Make:Controller has a pretty decent performance with steppers... I'm building a Mcwire bot, so who knows maybe that would make decent control hardware.

I'll let you know how it turns out.]]> Michael Plambeck Controllers Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:36:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,15527#msg-15527 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,15527#msg-15527
[www.saelig.com]

This one doesn't need separate 3.3v and 5v supplies. "Wide supply voltage range from 3.6 Volts to 6.0 Volts. Operating current @23mA nominal when using a 5.0 Volts supply source."

So there are ready made solutions for reading a large ASCII file from micro-SD cards. Would take minimum coding.

Arvin]]> Arvin Controllers Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:58:58 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,15520#msg-15520 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,15520#msg-15520
They were talking about a uALFAT-TF board.(http://www.ghielectronics.com/products.php)

The uAlFat-TF is a small board that can read/write to a SD card. It will currently only use up to 1Gb but the board maker says they are working on the 2Gb version now.

BCJKiwi has a write up on using it with a PICAXE at [www.picaxeforum.co.uk]

If he can do it with a picaxe it should be easy with an arduino. :)

Arvin]]> Arvin Controllers Thu, 07 Aug 2008 08:05:07 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14998#msg-14998 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14998#msg-14998
[sanguino.cc]

I bet the additional pins could be used to drive an LCD screen, keyboard, and SD card reader.]]> JohnWasser Controllers Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:32:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14997#msg-14997 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14997#msg-14997 -------------------------------------------------------
> I get the following hex string over and over again:
> 54 sync
> 51 HDB2
> 31 HDB1
> 08 dst address Extruder (!!!)
> 00 src address PC
> 00 version command
> BA crc
>
> The strange thing is, dst address is the address
> for the extruder, still the circuit and Java
> program work when I connect only a Stepper board
> to the host.
>
> Any idea what is going on?

Looks like the test software is assuming there is an extruder and is asking that extruder what its version is. When it gets no reply it tries again.

Perhaps it is an error in the test program and it should be addressing one of the stepper controllers instead of the extruder. What is the test program you are running?]]> JohnWasser Controllers Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:24:55 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14780#msg-14780 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14780#msg-14780 www.adafruit.com]. I haven't looked through the project very much, but perhaps the audio hardware and .wav handling could be discarded and the FAT16 hardware and software bits could be used.]]> cardinalbiggles Controllers Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:09:53 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14684#msg-14684 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14684#msg-14684
I found some strange results.

I choose the tester-exerciser program from the reprap 0.4 Live-CD

Even so, I get the following hex string over and over again:

54 51 31 08 00 00 BA

I interpret this as:

54 sync
51 HDB2
31 HDB1
08 dst address Extruder (!!!)
00 src address PC
00 version command
BA crc


The strange thing is, dst address is the address for the extruder, still the circuit and Java program work when I connect only a Stepper board to the host.

Any idea what is going on?]]> mimarob Controllers Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:48:15 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14506#msg-14506 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14506#msg-14506
If industri at large where anywhere near this project in the way of working, we'd all have weekend retreats on Mars by now !

Yeah, one has to emulate the devices, just like the arduino does!

Stuff like "feedstock empty" of course has to be faked in a batch printer solution, but I don't think it is in use today anyway?]]> mimarob Controllers Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:00:42 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14496#msg-14496 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14496#msg-14496 www.reprap.org]
RepRap SNAP Command Documentation

[www.reprap.org]
Stepper Motor Controller SNAP Protocol Version 0

[www.reprap.org]
Extruder Controller SNAP Protocol Version 0

Looks like you will at least have to emulate the hardware to identify the type and version of each addressable device.]]> JohnWasser Controllers Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:47:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14495#msg-14495 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14495#msg-14495
I do some java and linux for a living, but it still took me a day or two to completely fail and then resort to the Live-CD so I guess there are a few things need simplifying.

OK, now I caught up on my reading, you are using your own slice-and-dice program, that must require at least some talent ;-)

Being a former software engineer I do almost anything to avoid serious programming since I know how time consuming it is :-)

But, going back to the S.N.A.P. protocol, anyone knows if that could be buffered in some embedded device and then paced out to the reprap? Preferably without modifications? Would it be useful if I looked into that?

I found some decent documentation on the protocol, but are there any pointers to the content data, apart from the Arduino/PIC code?]]> mimarob Controllers Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:20:08 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14465#msg-14465 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14465#msg-14465 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Forrest uses a completely custom toolchain.
>
It is that. Long ago, I observed the drama that Reprappers were having with Java and Linux and decided to write my own software on Windows and using Visual Basic .NET for the PC side and the Oshonsoft Basic IDE on the firmware side. While I wouldn't recommend that as a model for emulation (I've been writing software since the mid 1960's) I haven't regretted it as a personal choice for a even a moment.

I can't swear, since I'm still using Visual Studio .NET 2005, but I'm pretty sure that my PC side software will run successfully under Visual Basic .NET 2008 Express which you can download for free at...

[www.microsoft.com]

On the Tommelise microcontroller side you can get a license to program the Microchip Pic microcontrollers (I use the native USB comms 18F44550) for about $120 from Oshonsoft.

While my development tools are neither open source or completely free, the cost isn't crippling.]]> Forrest Higgs Controllers Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:09:57 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14462#msg-14462 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14462#msg-14462 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Forrest, I know you have done some heroic deeds
> with an eeprom, do you just tap off the character
> stream from the host or do you use modified
> software?

I'm not sure that I quite understand what you are asking. I've set up Tommelise's firmware to where it operates in two modes; print data transmission and printing.

In print data transmission, Tommelise isn't printing and I simply transmit a long character string from the PC to Tommelise that can contain upwards of 11 hours of print instructions in under 10 minutes. The firmware receives the stream and writes it off onto the EEPROM buffer. I also do a verification cycle to make sure that what got written into the EEPROM buffer is exactly what I transmitted.

Once that's done I can shift Tommelise into print mode and start the print. In print mode the USB link is free for transmissions between Tommelise and my PC and vice-versa to monitor the progress of the print job. For my primitive programming skills trying to send a print data stream across the USB link AND keep track of what Tommelise was doing was just too much to handle. Windows multi-tasking, while good, tends to at times create pauses for USB comms with peripherals which without a good buffer could mess up a print job. I have to use my PC to do a lot of other CPU intensive things besides running Tommelise so I wanted there to be as little regular traffic on that USB link as possible. I also wanted that light traffic to not be time critical since Windows isn't really a real-time operating system. From what I've seen Linux really isn't a real-time operating system either. That scares me a little for Darwin's sake since it seems to depend on just-in-time transmission of print data, largely.

I also wanted Tommelise to be able to print even with the PC shut down since the PC uses a LOT more power than Tommelise does and electricity runs $0.225/kwhr here in California. The way I've got it set up now, I can start a print job when I go to bed and shut down my PC and Tommelise will print it out, in theory at least, by itself.]]> Forrest Higgs Controllers Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:02:22 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14458#msg-14458 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14458#msg-14458 -------------------------------------------------------
> It just struck me that it might be silly to spend
> to much effort discussing which cpu or memory card
> solution is the best, lets leave that to darwinism
> ;-)

There's no harm in discussing the possibilities - a little intelligent design goes a long way in this business, which is why we got RepRap in 4 years instead of 4 million ;-)

> But.. I read a little on the S.N.A.P. protocol
> this morning and the question that arose was: Is
> it possible to "eat away" the character stream
> coming from the host, happily ack:ing away all
> messages and store into a large enough memory of
> some kind, pretty much the same way as the
> infamous printer "spoolers" of the 80's.
>
> Can all this be achivied transparently without
> changing the reprap host software?
>
> I guess the "spooler" would need to be intelligent
> enough to handle retransmissions and different
> error conditions like restarts that may occur in
> the actual printing process?
>
> Forrest, I know you have done some heroic deeds
> with an eeprom, do you just tap off the character
> stream from the host or do you use modified
> software?


Forrest uses a completely custom toolchain. He can give you the details about how it all works, but you might want to check out his blog at [www.3dreplicators.com] to get an idea of how it works, and what he's got working so far.]]> Kyle Corbitt Controllers Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:13:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14457#msg-14457 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,14457#msg-14457
But.. I read a little on the S.N.A.P. protocol this morning and the question that arose was: Is it possible to "eat away" the character stream coming from the host, happily ack:ing away all messages and store into a large enough memory of some kind, pretty much the same way as the infamous printer "spoolers" of the 80's.

Can all this be achivied transparently without changing the reprap host software?

I guess the "spooler" would need to be intelligent enough to handle retransmissions and different error conditions like restarts that may occur in the actual printing process?

Forrest, I know you have done some heroic deeds with an eeprom, do you just tap off the character stream from the host or do you use modified software?]]> mimarob Controllers Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:52:49 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13795#msg-13795 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13795#msg-13795
Yes, I downloaded full source code in C ready to compile. You are right to question the freedom of what can be done with the source, again I refer you to the document AN1045 and read the terms.

Tony]]> tofletcher Controllers Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:23:09 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13789#msg-13789 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13789#msg-13789
Not sure what the sector size of SD cards is.

[en.wikipedia.org]

-Mark]]> Anonymous User Controllers Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:59:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13787#msg-13787 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13787#msg-13787
Would be interesting to read, a friend of mine actually asked for help reading/writing SD's the other day.

How large is the maximum of a FAT16 file system?]]> mimarob Controllers Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:46:24 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13784#msg-13784 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13784#msg-13784
I have a vested interest in the SD solution as I have used this with my project, what I can say is it works, it has plenty of space for files and the speed is quick enough to serve up data without any significant segment pausing. I am sure you can get this media working with the Arduino, but I do not have any experience with the chip and am not sure if there is a FAT system out there to make it compatible with a PC.

I would recommend you have a look at Microchip paper AN1045, this is a complete (Free) implementation of SD Card (& Compact Flash) with FAT 16. The library contains a comprehensive set of functions for file management. As much of the information contained in the paper is platform independent I am sure it will be useful to anybody wanting to go down this route. You should be able to get a good idea of the resource required for SD interface and FAT16 implementation, you can then decide if SD Media is a suitable option for the Arduino.

The AN1045 Library runs well on the PIC24, with this installed you can read, write, navigate directories etc. In my project using an LCD and a couple of buttons on the joystick, I have it scrolling through the files on the card so you can select the one you want to run.

Tony]]> tofletcher Controllers Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:23:22 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13632#msg-13632 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13632#msg-13632
That is big enough to store complete projects, like a Darwin.]]> nophead Controllers Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:55:54 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13631#msg-13631 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13631#msg-13631 -------------------------------------------------------
> Hmm 10+3+6 = 19 pins I guess the SD wins on the
> pincount :-)

Wowzie! That's almost half the pins of a 40 pin PIC! ::o

The I2C compatable EEPROMS I'm using need just 2 to handle half a megabyte.]]> Forrest Higgs Controllers Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:35:09 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13629#msg-13629 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13629#msg-13629
It was even better than I thought. The Compact Flash cards (available
everywhere) have a memory mapped mode.


Here is a description of how to interface it to a pic

[www.archive.chipcenter.com]

There is an example in pic-assembeler how to access memory!

Hmm 10+3+6 = 19 pins I guess the SD wins on the pincount :-)]]> mimarob Controllers Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:42:56 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13622#msg-13622 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13622#msg-13622

[blog.makezine.com]]]> bobt Controllers Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:02:31 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13619#msg-13619 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13619#msg-13619
It must be easier than reading a flash through USB.

I'll look around and see if I can that darn chip somewhere]]> mimarob Controllers Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:36:17 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13586#msg-13586 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13586#msg-13586
Quote

BTW I think I have somewhere a 128MB flash stick that emulates an IDE harddrive. Jumpering it differently, I think, would implement an old-fashined A0-AXX and D0-D15 memory with a few select lines. If these things are still a go, maybe they would give us the boost we need?

This would require some hardware that spoke IDE, and then a microprocessor that would do memory mapped IO for you. Its far easier trying to find kit to let you speak to a USB mass storage device.

Quote

What is missing in the z88dk though is all the drivers

Has anyone actually built an application for this processor, using this compiler? Having to do a whole load of assembly programming to get even the slightest thing to work correctly sounds... less than fun.

Without a widely available and widely used compiler that demonstrably worked well, I'd very extremely unkeen on even thinking about this particular platform.

But then, that's cos I prefer different sorts of challenges. As always, YMMV ;)]]> Ru Controllers Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:06:00 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13536#msg-13536 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13536#msg-13536
There is not so much secrecy in the Rabbit world when it comes to the hardware, circuit diagrams can be downloaded from the site itself.

I also know for a fact that you can buy these thingies one-at-time.

What is a secret though, is the software. That is also the reason for the development kit costs.

On the other hand the proprietary "Dynamic-C" compiler that is offered is quite horrible.

There is actually now a free alternative. Check out www.z88dk.org. A retro compiler project that from release 1.8 has a minimal but working support for the Rabbit processor.

What is missing in the z88dk though is all the drivers. But since we are writing directly to memory there would be no enormous usb stacks to implement.

Final question would then be: How far does 1 MByte of memory take you anyway?

BTW I think I have somewhere a 128MB flash stick that emulates an IDE harddrive. Jumpering it differently, I think, would implement an old-fashined A0-AXX and D0-D15 memory with a few select lines. If these things are still a go, maybe they would give us the boost we need?]]> mimarob Controllers Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:18:40 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13264#msg-13264 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13264#msg-13264
Quote

It has EIGHT PROCESSORS

And making use of them all might prove tricky ;) It would require a serious re-engineering of the firmware design, and significantly increase the number of ways stuff could go wrong, without any significant gain that I can see.

The reprap doesn't seem to need to do lots of complicated things simultaneously. What it lacks is storage space, (we're hitting the limits with the current arduino gcode firmware, I believe... but the atmega328 is allegedly on the way soon, and should be a drop in replacemnt?) and to a much lesser extent the raw processing speed to do various linedrawing things.

I'd be more in favour of a cheap ARM7 microcontroller. There are a lot of them about, and the toolchains are quite mature. I quite fancied the look of the toys from [www.at91shop.com] but they're a little beyond me right now, skill-wise!]]> Ru Controllers Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:56:32 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13162#msg-13162 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,13162#msg-13162 Anonymous User Controllers Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:36:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,12108#msg-12108 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,12108#msg-12108
Then ignore it, until you reach the height again and so on.

So the fabbing is sort of optimized for this sort of geometry but didn't mess too much around with the joints ...

Viktor]]> VDX Controllers Mon, 19 May 2008 14:17:00 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,12105#msg-12105 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,12105#msg-12105
Quote

For this kind of fabbing there should be an optimization, which instead of simply slicing through the complete object should output every 'column' separately from the bottom to the next possible junction (in respect to the shape and outer diameter of the tool-tip).
This could prove exceedingly tricky to do correctly for the sort of space-frame Kyle as looking at. Completing one edge of a /\ shape would make it very difficult to join the second edge to the apex, for example, as the top of the first edge could be too close for the deposition head to move to the correct location.

You could potentially solve it with something exotic like a hexapod, or a tilting platform attached to the bed to give you an extra couple of degrees of freedom, but I for one do not want to consider the mathematics of FDM toolpaths in 5+ DOF!

Vertical pillars, (or at least isolated pillars) on the other hand could benefit from this though. The cats-cradle part that nophead printed out last week springs to mind, for example. But then you have the problem that when you've completed one pillar and start on the next, the base of the part may have cooled quite a lot which could result in very poor inter-layer adhesion.

I think layers will be the least painful way to do FDM for some time to come ;)]]> Ru Controllers Mon, 19 May 2008 12:16:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,12066#msg-12066 Re: No Computers Attached!!! https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?13,11870,12066#msg-12066 -------------------------------------------------------
> For $100, you could add one of these:
> [www.linuxdevices.com]

Nifty. You could carry it in your jacket pocket. If it can plug into a TV set, I might buy one.]]> Anonymous User Controllers Sat, 17 May 2008 19:30:39 -0400