PCB Production Hullo guys I don't know if anyone has thought along these lines (Probably, and being newbie to this group I am probably going over old ground, so sorry in advance). As an open source junky I think open sourcing machinery to build better machinery is the muts nuts. I have been reading a number of articles re RP and PCB production using some wonderfully novel techniques. If a little high tec. PCB production from standard packages is usually anything but trivial. The higher the required quality and layers the messier and less eco friendly the process is. In the spirit or reprap how about machines that can take part in the production of their own next gen PCB's using some simpler more established kitchen table technology ......... Low Tec Has anyone though of using a syringe tool head or maybe even drawing pen tool head (disposable permanent ink type perhaps with either spring or gravity providing correct pen pressure) to dispense water/etchant proof tracks onto copper clad board before direct etching ???? Higher Tec & more messy but potential finer resolution (next reprap gen maybe). UV Light source (shutter controlled) with a cheap fiber optic connected pen to draw on photo etch board, then develop, then etch. Using tooling as is. I guess even using the extruder to draw tracks as the plastic will be etch proof. Then etching the exposed copper. Providing the start points on the boards can be synchronized front to back (ie the registration and repeatability is accurate enough) and folk don't mind soldered via's double sided boards as well as single sided should be possible using these methods. Withs sufficiently fine drawing and control single sided boards for surface mount components should be a breeze (no holes to worry about) Thoughts for what they are worth.... aka47 -- --------------------------------------------------- If sense were common:- 1. Everyone would have it. 2. The exploited wouldn't be. 3. The exploiters would have to get their sleeves rolled up and make a useful contribution like everyone else. (or preferably starve). 4.5i https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,6864#msg-6864 Mon, 10 Aug 2026 00:52:40 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12900#msg-12900 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12900#msg-12900 greenarrow Mechanics Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:58:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12762#msg-12762 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12762#msg-12762
I also got some brown powder into my salty water, obviously it was some kind of
copper salt.

It could be easily filtered out with a coffefilter.

I used about 0.5 amps with the cathode in the saltwater.

Any one knows enough chemistry to attempt a formula? I think the salt water process is doable, but it would be nice to know if I'm creating a major environmental disaster should this be a success ;-)]]> mimarob Mechanics Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:32:25 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12727#msg-12727 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12727#msg-12727
Pastes are quite tricky things, I have all but given up on messing around with Epsom salts as a potential support paste for similar reasons. Controlling crystal size and maintaining plasticity is problematic.

aka47]]> aka47 Mechanics Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:15:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12693#msg-12693 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12693#msg-12693
... i tried sometimes to make a paste with laser-toner from Sharp - either the toner didn't mix with the solvent, or when, then some of the ingredients thend to stick together, so the paste won't go through the needle :(

AFAIK the toner consists mainly of latex and graphite with some additives.

So you have to mix with the graphite, but shouldn't solve the latex ...

Viktor]]> VDX Mechanics Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:57:29 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12691#msg-12691 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12691#msg-12691
Toner is usually of a known particle size/class.

Push comes to shove bake it on, in an oven or under a grill.

aka47]]> aka47 Mechanics Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:06:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12683#msg-12683 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12683#msg-12683
What do you think?

I heard too about carcinogenic, this is why I dont fill my toner at home.]]> khiraly Mechanics Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:49:53 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12682#msg-12682 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12682#msg-12682 SnailRacer Mechanics Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:35:42 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12681#msg-12681 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12681#msg-12681
I have wasted too much photo sensitive board attempting repeatable results.

aka47]]> aka47 Mechanics Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:19:37 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12659#msg-12659 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12659#msg-12659 greenarrow Mechanics Sun, 01 Jun 2008 19:56:11 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12636#msg-12636 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12636#msg-12636 For those who does know, the method is simple:
1. Print the pcb traces on a paper with a laser printer
2. iron iton the raw pcb board
3. if succesfully ironing, then etch it.

The most difficult part in this process is the actual ironing, and if two sided board is necessary its way more difficult to properly align.

So I was thinking about it, and I think it could be automatised with the reprap.

1. We could use the laser printers' powder and directly deposit it on the raw pcb using Adrian excellent idea:
[blog.reprap.org]

2. With a laser diode (is a dvd-writer laser diode is strong enough?) we could melt the powder, and therefore it will stick on the surface.

3. etching as usual.

With this method we can align the two side of the board without trouble, so it can directly made all the reprap's pcb's without modification.

what do you think?]]> khiraly Mechanics Sun, 01 Jun 2008 04:43:14 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12464#msg-12464 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12464#msg-12464 The metal plastic alloy might short some circuits if too close, or with less metal powder to avoid shorts wouldn't bind with the extruded metal runs.]]> Dylan Mechanics Wed, 28 May 2008 05:05:53 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12460#msg-12460 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12460#msg-12460
First when printing metal on the surface and further when remelting for connecting the pins - it wouldn't stick to the surface and form blobs instead of neat trays ...

I had an idea where you have some metal-powder or metallic salt embedded in the plastic (not so much, so it wouldn't be conducting) - then the aplied metal could stick to the embedded particles.

Or draw the trays with an IR-laser to 'activate' the particles and let grow metal on the activated areas as in the MID-process ( [forums.reprap.org] ) ...

Viktor]]> VDX Mechanics Wed, 28 May 2008 03:14:36 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12440#msg-12440 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12440#msg-12440 -------------------------------------------------------
> extruding the fields style metal was what I meant
> by melting. I contacted a company last night that
> deals with low melt alloys to see if they could
> make a highly conductive low melt alloy. I'm not
> too sure how this would work with the final
> product for soldering. We could extrude the base
> and the metal, but when we go to solder chis and
> resistors on, it would melt the metal and the
> plastic.

Good point. It would probably not have too much effect on the plastic since it has a pretty high specific heat. Waving a hot soldering iron around a Field's metal trace, however, could be tricky.]]> Forrest Higgs Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 14:51:37 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12439#msg-12439 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12439#msg-12439 We all want the final product, but we probably should start simple first. My vote would be to do something that doesn't require etching, but we would probably need a highly conductive low melt metal.
Does anyone know the resistance in fields metal?]]> Dylan Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 14:34:05 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12437#msg-12437 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12437#msg-12437
Can the metal not also be extruded onto the components once they are placed, eliminating the need for soldering afterwards.

I'm only working on my PCB plotting to be useful in the meantime until there is an effective additive circuit process

Has anyone thought about 3D circuit design yet? I can't see any way we can make use of existing PCB software, we will probably need to design a tool which will import netlists. There possible avenues for designs : placing components arbitrarily in 3D space; or placing components on multiple layers. Layers will probably be easier to design in, but will not be as compact. However it will be easier (but harder to make) for a computer to auto-route efficiently in 3D, in which case layers would not be necessary.

Anyway, its probably best we get the process working in 2D first :)]]> greenarrow Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 14:26:54 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12436#msg-12436 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12436#msg-12436 Here is a mockup of what I had in mind for the head and how it would animate. If anyone is interested in building one I can provide better details.


If you're wondering how the selected tool will stay in place, there would be an automated locking pin mechanism.
This way it could mill the grooves, extrude the metal into it, use metalic pens to draw the silkscreen.
I doubt this type of head would be good for more than one or two extruder heads though.
]]> Dylan Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 13:16:34 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12427#msg-12427 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12427#msg-12427
Quote

What I was thinking of doing was using my dremel to cut a small groove in.... something. The same way that if you lift a trace off a regular board, there is a groove left behind. Then melt some sort of metal into that groove

If you're already milling, why not mill isolation tracks into pcb blanks, or even make your own conductive-metal-over-hear-resistant-substrate sheets? That would be somewhat quicker and easier, I'd say. Melting metal into a groove is significantly more complicated than is sounds.

I'd be more interested in a field's metal extrusion onto an extruded plastic substrate... no need for a precise and rigid cartesian bot that can withstand milling stresses, and the potential for nifty 3d circuits and the like.]]> Ru Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 05:17:26 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12424#msg-12424 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12424#msg-12424 greenarrow Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 04:29:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12419#msg-12419 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12419#msg-12419
[www.instructables.com]

Some modifications towards automation and this low-tech approach might be exactly what we need!

The plastic paint could be bio-degradable since it is only used for a few hours..

Then I don't know what the by-products are, copper-chloride? or will the copper
attach itself to one of the poles?]]> mimarob Mechanics Tue, 27 May 2008 03:08:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12416#msg-12416 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12416#msg-12416 What I was thinking of doing was using my dremel to cut a small groove in.... something. The same way that if you lift a trace off a regular board, there is a groove left behind. Then melt some sort of metal into that groove. I don't know what kind of conductivity there is in some of these really low melting point metals, but having a multihead system could end up making the whole board at once (one side). The other side would need some sort of calibration marking or something to get it to line up. The same way a PIC has the upper left pin as pin 1 in the diagrams, put some groove/wall system on the reprap bed to press and lock the board to as a home position. As long as the board is flipped the right way, it should work out.]]> Dylan Mechanics Mon, 26 May 2008 22:32:39 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12404#msg-12404 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12404#msg-12404 greenarrow Mechanics Mon, 26 May 2008 14:31:46 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12402#msg-12402 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12402#msg-12402
Might I suggest a scribe? That way you could etch things quite easily. Just make a channel which has a spring loaded cap, thus always forcing the scribe onto the work surface.]]> redskinsjbs Mechanics Mon, 26 May 2008 14:13:13 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12396#msg-12396 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12396#msg-12396 [www.flickr.com]
[www.flickr.com]
[www.flickr.com]
The pen I'm using at the moment is about 0.8mm but it just ran out so I'm looking for a smaller one now.

At the moment the program only supports using a pen, but I'm hoping to expand it to be able to use multiple tools at some point (cutter, laser, paintbrush etc). The program can load gerber, dxf & (soon) svg files.

I had a look at that page with the printer converted to make PCBs, but I couldn't see any photos of the actual end results (i.e. working PCBs) anywhere, was I missing something or is it still in progress?]]> greenarrow Mechanics Mon, 26 May 2008 09:16:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12314#msg-12314 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12314#msg-12314 spritesmods.com]

J.]]> John W Mechanics Sat, 24 May 2008 09:23:56 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12313#msg-12313 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,12313#msg-12313
[techref.massmind.org]

Seems the optimal method - I dont know what is involved with making an inkjet printer head work without the rest of the printer though :P

J.]]> John W Mechanics Sat, 24 May 2008 09:14:42 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7065#msg-7065 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7065#msg-7065 www.allegromicro.com]

Essentially most of the components are internal, it's a uni-polar driver, and it seems most people don't have these. I can't remember whether it can be converted easily. It just needs a Vref, sense resistors, smoothing cap and inputs.

I am using different motors than the "official" stepper motors sold/used by most reprappers. I got them for free tho, mm salvage!]]> TheFallen Mechanics Fri, 07 Dec 2007 06:24:27 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7063#msg-7063 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7063#msg-7063
Would it possibly be better placed being moved into somewhere suitable in the Wiki ??

I.E. quicker and easier to find with a link back to this thread so folk can follow the thinking if they want.

I am thinking of the summary and possibly adding a comparative table taking into account the strengths etc of the current Darwin model to help folk decide what they might want to have a go at now versus look at in preparation for the "Next Generation".

What is the form with the Wiki for this group, is it "by invitation" or "register and wait" or something else ?????

I currently use Twiki on my home website and have got enough time at the moment to make a contribution here.

aka47]]> aka47 Mechanics Fri, 07 Dec 2007 05:08:26 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7061#msg-7061 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7061#msg-7061
Then i made a driver for the mill, which milled the HPGL-files - this were fine outline-insulated PCB's with big copper-areas between the tracks.

For double-sided PCB's i manually drilled holes in the areas and connected them through and to GND, so the EM-shielding was absolutely perfect ;)

I build my stepper-driver-boards and the interfaces and powersupplies to a RF-CO2-Laser with this method and could eliminate all spikes and EM-sensitivities (i'll post some images, when at home).

---

In a further experiment i tried to ablate the copper with a NdYAG-laser, what was not so easy, as copper is very slow to ablate and then the PCB 'explode' when you cut trough the last copper.

I solved this with 75% thicker copper on the PCB's with only ablating 80% of the copper and then put it in the etch-liquid to etch down 30%-40%, so the pre-engraved trays were completely etched and all other areas were etched too and thinner then at beginning, but thicker as normal PCB's ...

Viktor]]> VDX Mechanics Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:35:26 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7060#msg-7060 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7060#msg-7060
I also forgot to mention most importantly that double sided boards are a pain in the rump if not near impossible for the average kitchen table, once a blue flood artiste.

(I am not counting myself out of this category, I have yet to successfully register Double sided prints on my kitchen table) :)o

aka47]]> aka47 Mechanics Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:24:21 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7059#msg-7059 Re: PCB Production https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?14,6864,7059#msg-7059
There is a school of thought that suggests PCB's should have the minimum (permissible for the application, allowing for DRC, inter track Capacitance and Inductance) of copper removed.

1. It means you get more boards out per liter of etching solution and is therefore more cost effective and less polluting.

2. It gives a higher degree of heat sinking on board. more copper = more cm sqr to dissipate heat from.

3. Thicker tracks means less track lift when soldering by hand ergo less repairs and messing around

4. Thicker tracks means less resistive loss and more current carrying capability

5. Making as much unused copper into power ground plane as possible plane reduces the criticality of those 1000pf capacitors you need to sprinkle everywhere to stop logic and switching circuitry loosing it on or around transitions & glitches (sorry forgot the technical name for them) Particularly when double siding a board upper layer + plane with lower Gnd plane can make quite a difference to operational stability. I guess it also reduces EMI levels too.

6. I guess finally if you are etching less copper it all takes less time.

Given that steppers are savagely predisposed to current spikes and resonances of both the mechanical and electrical kind your suggestions sound good.

Hmmm never heard of the newer component you mentioned do you have a part number etc so I could have a nosey just for fun.

cheers

aka47]]> aka47 Mechanics Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:18:27 -0500