The "Flying Extruder" Mod Hello! [b]The Problem[/b] A direct extruder (with the extruder motor at the nozzle) makes the end effector heavy. Due to the limited torque of the axis-motors and the limited stability of the linear bearings and the frame the printing speed is limited. A bowden extruder (with the extruder motor at the frame, feeding the nozzle trough a tube) does not have these issues. The end effector is very light an can move with high speeds and high acceleration. However the bowden principle introduces many problems. This is mainly friction in the tube and a hysteresis due to the elasticity of the tube and play of the filament in it. To fight stringing retraction is used. But because of this hysteresis you need more retraction. You'll also need more retraction if you are trying to print faster, because the pressure in the nozzle is higher and this pressure has to be eliminated before moving the nozzle to another position (otherwise you get strings). More retraction takes time an you get small blobs during the time the nozzle stays at one position. Long story short: The fastest I could print with a decent quality was around 25mm/s with 5mm retraction. [b]The Solution[/b] The Flying Extruder! [url=http://abload.de/img/dscf3165u1rnx.jpg][img]http://abload.de/thumb/dscf3165u1rnx.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://abload.de/img/dscf3167pmoa0.jpg][img]http://abload.de/thumb/dscf3167pmoa0.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://abload.de/img/dscf3168j6o4t.jpg][img]http://abload.de/thumb/dscf3168j6o4t.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://abload.de/img/dscf3169axpb7.jpg][img]http://abload.de/thumb/dscf3169axpb7.jpg[/img][/url] The extruder is suspended by rubber bands. These are running around several rolls to increase the length (each around 2m relaxed) to have more or less the same force over the whole vertical range. The extruder is connected with a very short tube (around 75mm) to the nozzle. This tube decouples the high frequencies between the nozzle and the extruder. Long story short: I'm printing with no problems with 75m/s and 3mm retraction and still with the same acceleration of 800mm/s². But this was only a short test and I think I can bring it up with a bit optimization. Another advantage is, that it's now easier to build an enclosure and that the printer is much quieter, because the extruder is decoupled. (Cabling is not finished yet.) Here is a short video: http://vimeo.com/68489641 Ask Kisslicer why it's producing such crazy moves ;) Kind regards, MK PS: This is still in a prototyping state. I haven't tested everything end some optimizations must be made. https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,218716#msg-218716 Tue, 21 Apr 2026 16:41:58 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,772507#msg-772507 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,772507#msg-772507 jonathank Delta Machines Thu, 08 Jun 2017 12:17:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769693#msg-769693 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769693#msg-769693 Now waiting for the Diamond-Nimble ( hint-hint ) ;)]]> o_lampe Delta Machines Tue, 23 May 2017 03:04:30 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769542#msg-769542 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769542#msg-769542
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o_lampe
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hercek
You probably can built it yourself. Try a hard steel wire in the range of 1 - 1.5 mm. The wire can be placed in a bowden but it is not necessary. You will need quite a significant gearing (probably in the range of 1:(30-60)) so that the torsion forces on the wire are not too high.

Wouldn't that create even more side-forces to the coldend that a bowden tube alone?

I wondered, how spectra line would act in a bowden tube, when it's used as winch drive? There wouldn't be a need for a worm drive anymore, just make the winch pulley big enough.

In my experience a cable drive doesn't put lateral forces on the effector, provided the cable is long enough (mines 90cm) and well supported (I use a key chain retractor at the apex of the loop of cable). I'm calibrating to 0.006, down from the 0.02 I had with the flying extruder, I never used a conventional bowden on my kossel XL so I can't compare to that setup.

That being said I think the flying extruder was a big boost from bowden on my kossel mini, it just didn't perform as well on the kossel XL, and when I went to dual flying extruder that was even more obvious.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Mon, 22 May 2017 07:34:36 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769540#msg-769540 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769540#msg-769540
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hercek
You probably can built it yourself. Try a hard steel wire in the range of 1 - 1.5 mm. The wire can be placed in a bowden but it is not necessary. You will need quite a significant gearing (probably in the range of 1:(30-60)) so that the torsion forces on the wire are not too high.

Wouldn't that create even more side-forces to the coldend than a bowden tube alone?

I wondered how spectra line would act in a bowden tube, when it's used as winch drive? There wouldn't be a need for a worm drive anymore, just make the winch pulley big enough.]]> o_lampe Delta Machines Mon, 22 May 2017 07:30:27 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769508#msg-769508 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769508#msg-769508
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titeuf007
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Lykle
Cable driven setup is when you use a Remote Direct Drive (RDD)
The RDD leaves the stepper mounted on the printer frame somewhere and a drive cable then powers the extruder part mounted directly on the effector or print head.
This makes sure the extruder part is as light as possible, in the Nimble case less than 27 grams, while you still have a direct driven extruder.
Basically, you have all the benefits of both bowden and direct drive, with none of the disadvantages.
RDD is a good alternative to a flying extruder.


nimble is pretty damn expansive!!! 50euro will be an honest price but 80 for this..

Yes I think you probably can build one, but the titan extruder is £50, and that doesn't come with remote drive, or offer a super light solution for direct drive, which both the Nimble and the Flex3Drive offer. So for a little more money you get a lot more extruder.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Mon, 22 May 2017 05:25:02 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769499#msg-769499 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769499#msg-769499 hercek Delta Machines Mon, 22 May 2017 04:42:41 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769415#msg-769415 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769415#msg-769415
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Lykle
Cable driven setup is when you use a Remote Direct Drive (RDD)
The RDD leaves the stepper mounted on the printer frame somewhere and a drive cable then powers the extruder part mounted directly on the effector or print head.
This makes sure the extruder part is as light as possible, in the Nimble case less than 27 grams, while you still have a direct driven extruder.
Basically, you have all the benefits of both bowden and direct drive, with none of the disadvantages.
RDD is a good alternative to a flying extruder.


nimble is pretty damn expansive!!! 50euro will be an honest price but 80 for this..]]> titeuf007 Delta Machines Sun, 21 May 2017 18:52:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769292#msg-769292 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769292#msg-769292 spinor Delta Machines Sun, 21 May 2017 05:22:54 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769259#msg-769259 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769259#msg-769259 The RDD leaves the stepper mounted on the printer frame somewhere and a drive cable then powers the extruder part mounted directly on the effector or print head.
This makes sure the extruder part is as light as possible, in the Nimble case less than 27 grams, while you still have a direct driven extruder.
Basically, you have all the benefits of both bowden and direct drive, with none of the disadvantages.
RDD is a good alternative to a flying extruder.]]> Lykle Delta Machines Sun, 21 May 2017 01:58:11 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769234#msg-769234 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769234#msg-769234 spinor Delta Machines Sat, 20 May 2017 18:46:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769057#msg-769057 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,769057#msg-769057 DjDemonD Delta Machines Fri, 19 May 2017 18:32:45 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767294#msg-767294 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767294#msg-767294 spinor Delta Machines Thu, 11 May 2017 06:51:11 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767214#msg-767214 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767214#msg-767214 sungod3k Delta Machines Wed, 10 May 2017 21:11:40 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767181#msg-767181 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767181#msg-767181 www.leespring.co.uk].]]> dc42 Delta Machines Wed, 10 May 2017 16:47:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767174#msg-767174 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767174#msg-767174 dougal1957 Delta Machines Wed, 10 May 2017 16:08:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767162#msg-767162 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,767162#msg-767162
So there is definitely a significant effect being seen here. Time to use the cable driven extruders I guess.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 10 May 2017 15:15:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757961#msg-757961 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757961#msg-757961 sungod3k Delta Machines Thu, 23 Mar 2017 05:05:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757955#msg-757955 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757955#msg-757955
Sungod3K - That is certainly possible, I think I had better try that test also. The only reason I ask is that prior to changing to the dual flying extruder my layer registration and walls were excellent.

I don't print much PLA no. PLA is probably one of the most challenging materials in terms of filament shaping on tool changes with this type of system. ABS should be more forgiving and break more cleanly when retracted, making for fewer jams when reinserted. That being said I'm only trying it as an experience really, I don't feel a great need for dual extrusion.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Thu, 23 Mar 2017 04:55:44 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757939#msg-757939 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757939#msg-757939
Also im curious about you dual setup, do you plan on using PLA?]]> sungod3k Delta Machines Thu, 23 Mar 2017 03:31:08 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757935#msg-757935 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757935#msg-757935
[attachment 92298 dual_titan.jpg]

It might get better, when you place the Titans face to face, so the Tubes run more parallel.
If that's not possible, check my "swinging" extruder. Let the steppers rotate around their shaft center ( COG ) will eliminate the fixed triangle issue.]]> o_lampe Delta Machines Thu, 23 Mar 2017 03:22:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757896#msg-757896 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,757896#msg-757896
I modified my flying extruder bracket to have two titans with 20mm pancake nema 17's:
[attachment 92285 IMG_20170322_195243.jpg]

Printed a cube just to see how it was working with much heavier flying extruder setup and got this horrible thing:
[attachment 92290 Still004.jpg]

This I determined was due to over-extrusion, there is not enough space every 4th layer and the filament gets pushed out sideways.

So I fixed that but was still getting this:
[attachment 92291 Still005.jpg]

Which seemed to be related to jerk or acceleration at the corners. I tried a good few cubes varying these settings, as well as motor currents, and printing speed and whilst some combinations seemed to improve it none really cured it.

I've also tried slackening the elastic holding the flying bracket.

Is it just the mass of this assembly is too great not to create artefacts in the prints?

That's generic black ABS, printed 0.3mm layers with 0.4mm nozzle, e3d v6 hotend, using the genuine titan (right), at 240 deg C.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:51:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,752326#msg-752326 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,752326#msg-752326 DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:12:53 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,752256#msg-752256 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,752256#msg-752256
The problem is that the bowden tube isn't straight, due to the extruder section being offset from the motor. This results in sloppy retracts.

[attachment 91314 IMG_6527.jpg]

So after a few iterations, I was no better off, until I added another spring to support the motor:

[attachment 91315 IMG_6564.jpg]

Ta-Daa! Straight bowden tube! It is free to move all around the bed, and at the extremities it has a bend (as you'd expect) but it's only a single curve, not a double.

Haven't tried a test print yet, but by pulling on the filament I can see that it should be a lot more direct.]]> nebbian Delta Machines Wed, 01 Mar 2017 01:18:44 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,750057#msg-750057 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,750057#msg-750057
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DjDemonD
I'm using e3d titan

I installed mine over the weekend, and am quite impressed with it. The instructions are great, design is superb, the steps/mm they give you are spot on. Easy to retrofit to a flying extruder setup, you just need to: a) buy the bowden adapter, and b) push the little black retainer into the adapter BEFORE adding your bowden cable.

Very happy.]]> nebbian Delta Machines Sun, 19 Feb 2017 21:34:50 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748981#msg-748981 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748981#msg-748981 DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:52:18 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748976#msg-748976 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748976#msg-748976
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DjDemonD
I've been really pleased with it so far. Its actually very well designed and has some very nice touches like the filament guide. I haven't really got anything bad to say about it. Ordered one of the cloned version, the Trianglelabs extruder be interested to see how close they got.

Please let us know what you think on that clone...]]> Teilchen Delta Machines Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:47:22 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748888#msg-748888 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748888#msg-748888 3/s through an e3d v6?]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:43:26 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748848#msg-748848 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748848#msg-748848
(4688 * (((1.75/2)^2)*π))/(26*60) = 7.22 mm3/s?]]> nebbian Delta Machines Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:12:04 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748830#msg-748830 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748830#msg-748830 DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 15 Feb 2017 07:27:37 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748829#msg-748829 Re: The "Flying Extruder" Mod https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,218716,748829#msg-748829 nebbian Delta Machines Wed, 15 Feb 2017 07:26:06 -0500