Talk me out of (or into) a Delta Hey all, I have decided to delve into the world of 3D printing. I was previously waiting for the Wally from Nicolas Seward and was signed up for the beta but that never seemed to materialise. After having had a good look around I feel a Large Delta printer fits the bill for me, I think I understand the pros and cons and don't mind a but of tinkering if I get the results I want. My main criteria in order of importance are cost, print size, print quality, print speed, ease of use and printer size. This seems to point to a delta to me but I am willing to be be persuaded if it can be argued that I can get the same print size / print speed from a similar priced non-delta printer. I am in the UK and I have been looking at the Kossel XL from http://builda3dprinter.eu/ though I have also been also looking at a [url=https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/building-a-large-delta-printer/]self build following this blog[/url]. I really don't want to spend more than £400 but would if there was a real benefit. I would like something as future proof as possible so the ability to add multi colour printing and print using other materials like nylon would be a bonus. https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,578403#msg-578403 Tue, 16 Jun 2026 04:38:40 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,833710#msg-833710 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,833710#msg-833710 I don't know if the question is for me, but for Zatsit, it's not an IGUS product, but simply slides machined from Delrin.]]> M_Xeno Delta Machines Sat, 15 Sep 2018 03:06:18 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,833699#msg-833699 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,833699#msg-833699 warbunniex Delta Machines Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:20:01 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,833393#msg-833393 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,833393#msg-833393 For Zatsit, I used simple Delrin slides, gliding directly on MakerSlide profiles. I don't consider it to be a low-end solution, on the contrary:

The ultra-light Delrin slides practically do not contribute to the increase in moving masses. If carefully designed, used in a consistent mechanical architecture, and well tuned, they offer optimal performance for lightly loaded mechanisms, such as Delta printers. I even think they can reduce ringing, by providing a form of damping.

The architecture of the machine is more important than the guiding technology. For example, the lever for embedding the four slides of a trolley on Zatsit is 140x46mm. Therefore, a possible low mechanical gap in one of them can only have minimal consequences on the geometry of the mechanism as a whole.

Finally, the slides are silent, even when shaken at extreme speeds and accelerations. Have you seen this:

Zatsit so fast]]> M_Xeno Delta Machines Tue, 11 Sep 2018 06:24:44 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,832956#msg-832956 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,832956#msg-832956
Quote
dc42
We'll have to disagree about that. It is important that the sliders don't rotate when the belt stops pulling one way and starts pulling the other way. This does not necessarily mean that with the belts disconnected, the carriages don't drop under their own weight.

Yes, but if the rails move freely without a load on the bearings the "majority" of them allow for some movement, this is because there is a gap between the casings that is allowing the "free" movement, sure it is a small gap but it is still a gap and also can allow the bearings to slide instead of rotating which generates additional noise/vibrations. Slide a linear rail up and down (ones with ball bearings, the other type are not worth talking about), the rails without the ability to adjust the bearing load you can feel the bearings moving around unevenly, compare to one you can adjust the pre-load and you will still feel the bearings but the feeling will be even and much smoother.

Now saying that, linear rails typically last much longer than polycarb wheels which is something to remember, but changing out wheels every few years on a printer continuously printing is not really that bad. Then you can look at what it takes to setup each type and one could argue wheels are much easier when you consider the choice and availability of quality extrusion for wheels but then again you can bolt a linear rail to anything as long as you take great pains to ensure they are installed square. Admittedly we are niggling over minute differences when comparing quality wheel setups vs quality linear rail setups, I am just saying the majority of people would not seen an improvement with linear rails over wheels, that and value for money you would be far more likely to get better print quality from the same money spent on a wheel setup compared to a linear rails setup be it on the cheap end or big end budget wise.]]> Redemptioner Delta Machines Thu, 06 Sep 2018 03:36:13 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,832954#msg-832954 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,832954#msg-832954
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Redemptioner
Quote
scndctr
What's more, mine uses linear rails and not wheels, but I don't know if the rails are really significantly better.

Generally using linear rails on a delta it does not, assuming you are using polycarb wheels, improve the print quality. This is due to being unable to adjust pre-load on the linear bearings, something that is a critical element to be able to adjust in order to get perfect prints on a delta (fyi if your carriages and/or effector can move down the Z axis under their own weight you don't have appropriate levels of bearing pre-load).

We'll have to disagree about that. It is important that the sliders don't rotate when the belt stops pulling one way and starts pulling the other way. This does not necessarily mean that with the belts disconnected, the carriages don't drop under their own weight.]]> dc42 Delta Machines Thu, 06 Sep 2018 03:02:31 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,832949#msg-832949 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,832949#msg-832949
Quote
scndctr
What's more, mine uses linear rails and not wheels, but I don't know if the rails are really significantly better.

Generally using linear rails on a delta it does not, assuming you are using polycarb wheels, improve the print quality. This is due to being unable to adjust pre-load on the linear bearings, something that is a critical element to be able to adjust in order to get perfect prints on a delta (fyi if your carriages and/or effector can move down the Z axis under their own weight you don't have appropriate levels of bearing pre-load).]]> Redemptioner Delta Machines Thu, 06 Sep 2018 02:40:01 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,826138#msg-826138 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,826138#msg-826138
I've had a very positive experience with the Chinese-made BIQU Kossel Plus which has a bed diameter of 24 cm and print height of 36 cm, so it's slightly taller than the Kossel XL you linked. This machine works just fine at 100 mm/s with the stock RAMPS board, and since it's already significantly faster as well as more accurate than my cartesian machine, I haven't bothered printing at higher speeds; I'm happy with the performance. The kit cost me 350 USD nearly 2 years ago, so you could probably get it for even less than that now.

What's more, mine uses linear rails and not wheels, but I don't know if the rails are really significantly better. The kit includes everything to get you up and running once it is built and configured, so you don't need to purchase any extras unless you're keen on making some improvements.]]> scndctr Delta Machines Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:41:02 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825845#msg-825845 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825845#msg-825845
I use 6mm GT2 belts, original Gates, 600mm long (for a carriage stroke of 500mm or so), with a 0.8mm Kevlar string to complet the belt circuit. The belts are tensioned to death, and the design of the motor supports, in Hylite, incorporates a ball bearing to prevent the axis of the motor from overhanging, and can therefore support the tension.]]> M_Xeno Delta Machines Sat, 16 Jun 2018 05:07:55 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825840#msg-825840 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825840#msg-825840 hercek Delta Machines Sat, 16 Jun 2018 04:36:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825836#msg-825836 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825836#msg-825836 Yes, acceleration was 10000mm/s² that time, so about 1G (1). Usually, I am using 6000mm/s² or so.
I tried 3G, no step loss, while extruding with a Flystruder, but extrusion is problematic at this rate.
Without any extrusion, and nothing on the effector, the printer supports any acceleration without loss of steps, thanks to the little compliance of the hinged linkage. Very snappy to look at, but not very useful...

(1) P.S. : Since I had activated pressure advance, I had to set the e-jerk so that the extruder would not stall, and this may have indirectly limited the acceleration of the X-Y motion by a small amount.]]> M_Xeno Delta Machines Sat, 16 Jun 2018 03:09:20 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825811#msg-825811 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825811#msg-825811
When you say acceleration is 1G that's 9800mm/s/s?]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:42:48 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825763#msg-825763 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825763#msg-825763
Equipment of the machine:
Motors 0.9° at 24V
Duet Wifi Electronics
Extruder: E3D Titan in Flystruder position, gimballed

Parameters:
PLA
1G acceleration
Layer height 0.2mm, then 0.1mm, and finally 0.08mm (due to limited maximum extrusion rate)
Each slice increases the speed of the previous slice by 1.2x. We start from the bottom at 30mm/s, so:
30 mm/s, height 0.2mm
36
43
52
62
74
90
107
129
155
186 mm/s (height 0.15mm)
223 mm/s (height 0.1mm)
267 mm/s (height 0.08mm)
320
385
462 mm/s
[attachment 105573 IMG_0715.JPG]
As you can see, there is practically no ringing at any speed. There are signs of under-extrusion from 320mm/s, but the mechanics remain faultless.

I am now concentrating my efforts on improving extrusion, while keeping an ultra-light head:
[reprap.org]]]> M_Xeno Delta Machines Fri, 15 Jun 2018 09:47:31 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825677#msg-825677 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825677#msg-825677
Here is an example of a corner on a rostock 9000 mm/s², 120 mm/s, 0.2 mm layer height. Steel belt. The unwanted ring wave peak-to-peak distance is about 0.2 mm, the same as layer height.
[attachment 105564 ring.jpg]]]> hercek Delta Machines Thu, 14 Jun 2018 18:32:53 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825656#msg-825656 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825656#msg-825656 DjDemonD Delta Machines Thu, 14 Jun 2018 15:19:17 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825396#msg-825396 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825396#msg-825396 DjDemonD Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 15:15:07 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825391#msg-825391 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825391#msg-825391 hercek Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 14:56:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825385#msg-825385 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825385#msg-825385 [reprap.org]
let me discreetly promote it (A Kickstarter campaign is planned soon). I feel authorized to do so, because Zatsit's very original approach modifies the terms of the debate on this post.

Zatsit is a delta, with all the advantages of a delta, but it avoids some disadvantages: as it does not use mechanical components to assemble, and as all dimensions are from a CNC cut, the geometrical characteristics of the machine do not depend on any adjustment, nor on the skill or meticulousness of the assembler. All Zatsit react in the same way to the calibration procedures proposed by the firmwares, to compensate for the specific geometric defects of the deltas: zero correction, more or less. Consequently, the dimensions of the printed objects are exact, if the extrusion is well calibrated.

Another feature is that it is a mechanical base kit only. You can choose the electronics you like, and everything else. You will not have to upgrade a complete kit, but one that will underperform by one component or another, which will have to be replaced. Zatsit only offers mechanics, but at least on the mechanical side, it will be optimal anyway.

Zatsit has many other advantages. The best is to make your opinion, by following the link above, or by directly watching the assembly instruction videos, very explicit, here :
[hackaday.io]

Enjoy!]]> M_Xeno Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 14:22:41 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825365#msg-825365 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825365#msg-825365
This was a 60x60x60 cube [attachment 105523 xyz-cube.stl] (scaled up 300%) in PLA printed with 0.2mm layers, 3 perimeters, 1 bottom layer, no top layers.

Up until the top of the lettering, it was running at 150% 75mm/s perimeters and 37.5mm/s external perimeters.

After the lettering, I ramped the speed up in 50% increments/5 layers or so from 150% to 300%. (150mm/s perimeters and 75mm/s external perimeters).I would have allowed more layers per speed change but I didn't have time to attend to it much.

Its overextruding at the seam but then there is no linear/pressure advance running on this setup.

The penultimate corner before the seam shows the classic overshoot before being pulled back into position.

However up until I cranked it up it was producing smooth walls, nice layer registration, no more or less ghosting than my kossel XL would manage.

[attachment 105516 20180612_160519Large.jpg][attachment 105517 20180612_160533Large.jpg][attachment 105518 20180612_160556Large.jpg][attachment 105519 20180612_160641Large.jpg][attachment 105520 20180612_160646Large.jpg][attachment 105521 20180612_160651Large.jpg][attachment 105522 20180612_160658Large.jpg]]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 12:21:21 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825316#msg-825316 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825316#msg-825316 DjDemonD Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 05:16:47 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825314#msg-825314 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825314#msg-825314
What print speed do you achieve with CR10 without a big ringing around corners?

The point is that it looks like many people run their delta at around 50 mm/s but I assume cartesians should be pretty good at that speed too. And if so then there is hardly any reason to get bothered with complicated and non-intuitive delta calibration.]]> hercek Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 05:07:15 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825305#msg-825305 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,825305#msg-825305
On the question of delta or cartesian. I've spent a lot of time working with deltas, and have enjoyed it immensely, but recently my Kossel XL has had some troubles and has been out of action and I have been using my CR10 instead, and getting great results. It was then that I realised I didn't ask my Kossel XL to print fast very often, which after all is its unique selling point. One which I am not as able to utilise with all the mods and add-ons which add mass to the effector, and force me to use lower jerk/accel values.

There was nothing I could buy ready-made for the same money that would match it when I built it two years ago but now if I wanted to speed up my printing buying another CR10 would be much cheaper, easier and possibly a more reliable way to do it. But 2 years ago there were not capable machines for $300-$400 being sold where as now there are.

This discussion does paradoxically make me want to make a new medium sized delta - but make it a race horse and truly optimise it for high-speed printing, but alas finding the time is hard.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Tue, 12 Jun 2018 04:17:23 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821241#msg-821241 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821241#msg-821241
If people change bed temperature often or change the bed itself often then it makes sense.
Some probes will not help when changing hotend temperature since they do not probe with the hotend tip.
Frame may have significant influence too if heat chamber is sometimes used (and sometimes not) or the room temperatures changes significantly.

I print only ABS, always at the same temperatures, no heat chamber, so I did not have any need for this. The biggest variable would be frame temperature which can lead to about 3 microstep difference in my case. Not surprising I never minded that.

Edit and revert of the edit.]]> hercek Delta Machines Fri, 04 May 2018 13:12:59 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821232#msg-821232 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821232#msg-821232
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hercek
Oh, I'm a fan of auto-probing. I guess I was the first one who introduced it properly for delta machines. What I'm surprised about is an opinion of auto-probing need before every print. Either it is overrated or the average printers suck.

I heard a lot of complains about mechanical endstops too. I had become worried about it and modified my firmware to touch them 5 times when homing and measure the errors. I rarely make changes without measuring first to see whether the changes are needed at all. So I wanted to know whether I need to replace my mechanical endstops with optical or hall sensors.

Results of my mechanical endstop measurements: It is only about 1 in 1000 cases when the difference is 2 microsteps (between the nearest and the furthest touches). I never had a difference of 3 micrometers. One of the 5 end stop touches is off by 1 microstep quite often though. Microstep length is 12.5 µm. My measurements indicate that the microswitch can be precise plenty enough. I would say that the only requirement is that if the microswitch has a lever then one needs to press it at the location between the lever hinge and the microswitch button so that the lever does not increase the error but keeps it the same or decreases it.
Just to give some feedback on "crappy" microswitch talk I hear way too often too.

I agree. A different bed temperature or different hotend temperature has a significant effect. This cannot be ignored.

I totally agree on the mechanical switch. In fact is is amazing when you look inside, how they are made, that one can get such repeatability. The mechanism is not necessary for our purpose and I modified one to get rid of this mechanism and the results exceed what can be achieved by these chinese proximity sensors for cheap, simple, light, small etc...
Some Renishaw are purely mechanical.
Yet, when it comes to use the nozzle touching the bed to set Z, a purely mechanical system works (I did it for my Prusa) but DC42 strain gauges integrated in the effector is quite neat, in fact neater. These beat all switches, probes ... in a Delta.]]> MKSA Delta Machines Fri, 04 May 2018 11:30:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821205#msg-821205 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821205#msg-821205 dc42 Delta Machines Fri, 04 May 2018 06:02:28 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821177#msg-821177 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821177#msg-821177
Quote
hercek
Oh, I'm a fan of auto-probing. I guess I was the first one who introduced it properly for delta machines. What I'm surprised about is an opinion of auto-probing need before every print. Either it is overrated or the average printers suck.

I heard a lot of complains about mechanical endstops too. I had become worried about it and modified my firmware to touch them 5 times when homing and measure the errors. I rarely make changes without measuring first to see whether the changes are needed at all. So I wanted to know whether I need to replace my mechanical endstops with optical or hall sensors.

Results of my mechanical endstop measurements: It is only about 1 in 1000 cases when the difference is 2 microsteps (between the nearest and the furthest touches). I never had a difference of 3 micrometers. One of the 5 end stop touches is off by 1 microstep quite often though. Microstep length is 12.5 µm. My measurements indicate that the microswitch can be precise plenty enough. I would say that the only requirement is that if the microswitch has a lever then one needs to press it at the location between the lever hinge and the microswitch button so that the lever does not increase the error but keeps it the same or decreases it.
Just to give some feedback on "crappy" microswitch talk I hear way too often too.

I agree. A different bed temperature or different hotend temperature has a significant effect. This cannot be ignored.

I do autoprobing before every print because it is fast enough and I often change bed, glass with hairspray for PETG and PEI for ABS/PLA.
I'm too lazy to change my starting gcode. So for me it's not a "need" but just laziness.]]> Vigilant Delta Machines Fri, 04 May 2018 03:29:51 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821080#msg-821080 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821080#msg-821080 properly for delta machines. What I'm surprised about is an opinion of auto-probing need before every print. Either it is overrated or the average printers suck.

I heard a lot of complains about mechanical endstops too. I had become worried about it and modified my firmware to touch them 5 times when homing and measure the errors. I rarely make changes without measuring first to see whether the changes are needed at all. So I wanted to know whether I need to replace my mechanical endstops with optical or hall sensors.

Results of my mechanical endstop measurements: It is only about 1 in 1000 cases when the difference is 2 microsteps (between the nearest and the furthest touches). I never had a difference of 3 micrometers. One of the 5 end stop touches is off by 1 microstep quite often though. Microstep length is 12.5 µm. My measurements indicate that the microswitch can be precise plenty enough. I would say that the only requirement is that if the microswitch has a lever then one needs to press it at the location between the lever hinge and the microswitch button so that the lever does not increase the error but keeps it the same or decreases it.
Just to give some feedback on "crappy" microswitch talk I hear way too often too.

I agree. A different bed temperature or different hotend temperature has a significant effect. This cannot be ignored.]]> hercek Delta Machines Thu, 03 May 2018 04:27:09 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821077#msg-821077 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821077#msg-821077
I just do the bed distance (1 center point), not the whole grid leveling probing.

Futhermore those mechanical endstops are not that precise to begin with. So with this technique, it compensate for it. because it starts the print as soon as it find the bed, without re-homing.

In my opinion, just the different bed temperature is enough to change the first layer height... But I agree with you, it is not mandatory. It makes just a way more reliable machine...]]> Archiclem Delta Machines Thu, 03 May 2018 03:42:33 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821075#msg-821075 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821075#msg-821075
Quote
Archiclem
Edit : With the smart effector You never fail a print because you can probe the bed distance before every print... It make the machine very reliable
Is Kossel XL such a bad design that you need to check calibration before every print? What is the reason for constant (re)calibration? Is the frame wobbly? Maybe the outside temperature changes a lot between different printer runs? ...

I have a poor Rostock (well quite a modified one so it is not that much of a Rostock any more) and I have never needed to (re)calibrate the printer if I did not change something on it.]]> hercek Delta Machines Thu, 03 May 2018 03:31:44 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821040#msg-821040 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,821040#msg-821040
I have a flying extruder (Bondtech BMG :)-D ) on my delta which prevent me from doing something like the Prometheus system... but the result with one material are absolutely stunning ! Some high end delta (like the Atom 3.0) have a multi-material system, but personally i don't like bowden...

The big downfall for delta IMO is indeed that going for multi material is not the best with delta...I think that if you want to go serious on Multi-material you have to go for an independent extruder (IDEX) system like in the BNC sigma...


( Edit : With the smart effector You never fail a print because you can probe the bed distance before every print... It make the machine very reliable)]]> Archiclem Delta Machines Wed, 02 May 2018 17:22:10 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,820901#msg-820901 Re: Talk me out of (or into) a Delta https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,578403,820901#msg-820901 miscsolutions.wordpress.com]) is hassle-free and very reliable, but it cost over £1000 in parts. Cartesian printers such as the CR10 are less fussy about precise construction, so you can get away with much less precision; but they can't do the same speeds.]]> dc42 Delta Machines Tue, 01 May 2018 12:04:23 -0400