Removing vertical lines on prints

Removing vertical lines on prints [b][size=large]Removing vertical lines from prints[/size] [size=medium]or "How I learned to stop worrying about segments"[/size][/b] So you’ve got a delta printer that puts some lines on your prints like this, and you’d like to get rid of those lines? Read on. [attachment 93321 thumb_IMG_6707_1024.jpg] Before you do anything else, I want you to try the following experiment. It’s worth it, trust me. Take this STL file, and slice it with the following settings: Spiral vase mode No top or bottom layers [attachment 93322 50x50x50.stl] Slice one cube at 0.161mm layer height, and then slice another one at 0.202 layer height. Print both cubes. Ok you’ve done that? You haven’t? You’re just reading along? Go on, go off and do it. They don’t take long to print. I’ll wait, I promise. Don’t read any more until you’ve actually done it. OK, now that you’ve done it (or at least you’re pretending to have done it), it’s time to look at what’s going on. Chances are that you’ve created two cubes that look similar to this: [attachment 93323 thumb_IMG_6710_1024.jpg] Surprising isn’t it? How does layer height make such a dramatic difference to these prints? That makes no sense. At least, it didn’t to me. It does, though, and I’ll explain it in a moment. First, please stop pretending and actually go off and print those parts on your printer. You will after reading this post anyway, and it will make more sense if you have the parts in your hand while you read this. I’ll get to the whys, wherefores, and how to make your prints better in a moment. First let’s look at how delta printers work. https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,763881#msg-763881 Wed, 16 Sep 2026 23:39:06 -0400 Phorum 5.2.23 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,872896#msg-872896 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,872896#msg-872896 I checked my marlin settings and in the EEPROM, there was an imbalance between the max feed rates and accelerations for X/Y, and Z. Now, this shouldn't make a difference as the firmware should, when set to delta mode, use these to control effector kinematics and not carriage kinematics. As each axis does not operate as it does in a cartesian printer. But setting them all to the same values has solved the problem of being limited when a move required a fast change in Z carriage position.

So that's 1 down.

Next, I replaced the top idler pulleys with toothed idlers and in the process tightened my belts.

I recalibrated and achieved a standard deviation of 0.02 via the auto-calibration routine. I am using a Precision Piezo under bed sensor system, which is so sensitive it can trigger if I blow on the print bed.

I also printed a 50x50x50 cube using a segments value of 30, based on my results above. The lower half of the cube is 0.202 layer height and the upper half 0.161.

[attachment 115676 IMG_20200523_130647Medium.jpg]
[attachment 115677 IMG_20200523_130638Medium.jpg]

Its a cube with a smoothness some order of magnitude smoother than before, which is a great result. Interestingly you can see the tree ring pattern in the upper half printed with the 0.161 layer height, but not the lower half printed with the 0.202 layer height.

So a fair few issues solved here. Now to try the S-curve acceleration control.]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Sat, 23 May 2020 08:37:57 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,872878#msg-872878 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,872878#msg-872878
Having not really had any issues with vertical lines in prints using my micro-sized delta, which previously ran on really old, but perfectly functional Rich Cattell's marlin from 4-5 years ago, I switched to Marlin 2 bugfix, to modernise things up. Its running on a mega2560 and ramps1.4, with LV8729 drivers at 1/32 microstepping. They have no decay modes that can be selected.

It does do two really weird things.

1) When the effector is near to the front of the bed, in the minus Y range especially at the periphery its much slower, than it is when at the periphery at the back in the positive Y range, or at the extreme -x or +x positions. Its almost as if Marlin 2.0 is treating the motion of the Z tower differently when it should when set to be a delta treat them all the same. Of course, I understand that at extreme coordinates deltas, are limited by carriage speed, and at extreme +y positions the movement of the z carriage is the limiting factor, but why it should limit more than it does at other extreme positions which do not require such fast z carriage movement I cannot figure out. I have posted config, if anyone is a Marlin 2 on a delta expert (pretty rare beast these days I imagine).

2) I printed some of Nebbian's test cubes as I was getting a lot of vertical lines and mine are definitely related to segments.

[attachment 115666 layer_heightIMG_20200518_234620Medium.jpg]
Here I just tried different layer heights. I forgot about the 0.161 and 0.202 suggestions from this thread, as I couldn't find the thread, but curiously it popped up as someone else posted earlier today. As you can see no real difference in the vertical lines.

[attachment 115667 segmentshightomediumIMG_20200518_234626Medium.jpg]
So now I began printing at a low segment value of 40 and gradually increased it, result much worse with higher segment value. Which I found odd.

[attachment 115668 segmentsmediumtolowIMG_20200518_234633Medium.jpg]
So now I began again, but started at 40 segments then dropped gradually down to 1. Any value above 1 it prints quite normally, at 1 segment it really doesn't work at all.

So I am now using segments 30 and avoiding most of the vertical lines.

Curiously I also noticed this pattern:
[attachment 115669 IMG_20200522_220005Medium.jpg]
Now I think these are belt tooth artefacts as my top idler pulleys are non-toothed and only 16t diameter so this effect is heightened. It's curious how they appear to cancel each other out at some points and reinforce at others. I have just got some toothed idlers, which I will use to see if it solves the problem.

In any case, it's very odd that marlin 2.0 does a much worse job of running a delta in terms of print quality than a marlin 1.x fork from 5 years ago. I understand that most delta owners have moved away from 8-bit electronics, but Marlin 2.0 was written for 32bit electronics, I wonder if the same issues exist. I did have a re-arm board knocking about somewhere, I will have to try to find it.
config files:
[attachment 115670 Configuration.h]
[attachment 115671 Configuration_adv.h]]]> DjDemonD Delta Machines Fri, 22 May 2020 17:10:40 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,872875#msg-872875 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,872875#msg-872875 Unfortunately I don't know what drivers are on the Makerbase MKS Robin Mini V2.0]]> lordhenry Delta Machines Fri, 22 May 2020 13:17:03 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,862219#msg-862219 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,862219#msg-862219
I run a mini Kossel with an Azteeg X5 mini Ethernet v3.
Drivers are Panucatt's SD6128 (reads LV8728 under the heatsink).. when I asked Ray at Panucatt, he said OnSemi bought the line and renamed them, though the data sheets (can only find one for LV8728MR, no MR on mine) show slightly different current numbers for the LV's. They DO have the solder pads underneath to lock decay mode to fast or slow, default is mixed.
In the pic, nomod on the part denotes mixed decay mode, mod denotes fast decay mode is locked in.

Don't mind the heavy vertical line up the center of each, that was a Z carriage that had a quite high preload, and when moving so slowly and changing directions it caused an artifact.. all rails have since been replaced and it prints wonderfully now.

Modding wasn't an earth-shaking change, but it did well enough to leave them modded.
I leave layer height in kisslicer set to the .2589 for my .6 Volcano full time now.
Believer.

Thanks nebian.]]> Diggrr Delta Machines Sat, 09 Nov 2019 20:04:44 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,862092#msg-862092 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,862092#msg-862092
[www.google.com]

Has anyone tried it?]]> aaronH Delta Machines Thu, 07 Nov 2019 13:38:05 -0500 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,854024#msg-854024 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,854024#msg-854024
Your most likely problem is that your fast decay phase is too short or you have mismatched belts with pulleys.
Maybe somebody who uses TMC can help you more. Otherwise you need to find the magic layer height as described in this thread.]]> hercek Delta Machines Sun, 26 May 2019 05:08:58 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,854018#msg-854018 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,854018#msg-854018 totalitarian Delta Machines Sun, 26 May 2019 00:12:24 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,853995#msg-853995 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,853995#msg-853995 hercek Delta Machines Sat, 25 May 2019 10:37:22 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,853974#msg-853974 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,853974#msg-853974
I can't quite get rid of lines on my delta printer.

Here are my comparison cubes.

Top photo is Duet Wifi: 0.2mm layer height = diagonal lines

Bottom left photo SKR at 0.1618 layer height = salmon skin

Bottom right photo is SKR 0.2mm layer height = diagonal and vertical lines

This is my config, not sure if 0.1618 is the correct layer height.

#define XYZ_FULL_STEPS_PER_ROTATION 200
#define XYZ_MICROSTEPS 16
#define XYZ_BELT_PITCH 2
#define XYZ_PULLEY_TEETH 20

Could it be related to the rods rather than the tower hardware?

[attachment 111538 IMG_20190525_103634-COLLAGE.jpg]]]> totalitarian Delta Machines Sat, 25 May 2019 05:51:29 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,850915#msg-850915 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,850915#msg-850915

Quote
dc42
So IMO, anyone looking for a low cost machine should avoid deltas.

+1 This is a big one.
I would even say anybody who does not need quick printing should avoid deltas as well.
One can print slowly on a Cartesian printer for cheaper and without the complications of non-linear kinematics.

Quote
dc42
No need for magic layers heights, 0.2mm works just fine.

I partially disagree here. The relationship between layer height and the patterns on the surfaces is clearly shown in this thread.
Anyway I disagree only partially because the problem is mostly related to the slow decay of some stepper drivers. If one has good stepper drivers (or even worse stepper drivers in fast decay mode) then the layer height does not matter. In other words, the problem is somewhere else than the layer height. A magic layer height is only a way to hide some the problem symptoms.]]> hercek Delta Machines Tue, 09 Apr 2019 05:26:14 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,850906#msg-850906 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,850906#msg-850906

Quote
Wibbles
The standard Sintron is quite an amazing piece of kit, the problem is that Delta's are, as I learned, an absolute pig to configure. I would guess that many think that as it is cheap, it doesn't print well due to cheap parts, so they keep buying more expensive 'upgrades'. The printer in standard form, as many will testify, is capable of some wondrous things. The issue is that whereas a Cartesian printer will print pretty well when not perfect, a Delta needs to be tweaked to perfection or it won't produce the goods.

Good deltas are a delight to use. But there are at least two ingredients to a good delta:

1. Good mechanics, free from backlash and free from geometric errors that can't be calibrated out. Some things can be calibrated out easily, for example the exact positions of the towers, and different endstop heights. Other things can't be calibrated out using any standard current firmwares, such as non-parallel towers, rod bearing spacings that are not exactly equal at both ends of the rods, and carriages rotated slightly about their faces or about the Z axis. Forum user hercek has recently done some work on supporting and calibrating non-parallel towers.

2. A good nozzle-contact Z probe, backed up by electronics and firmware that provides least squares auto calibration, or another algorithm that is equally good and fast.

Most cheap deltas have neither accurate mechanics nor good electronics. So IMO, anyone looking for a low cost machine should avoid deltas. SeeMeCNC makes good deltas, but they are not cheap. My own Kossel XL variant (see my signature) cost around £1000 in parts, but it prints beautifully. No need for magic layers heights, 0.2mm works just fine.]]> dc42 Delta Machines Tue, 09 Apr 2019 03:02:38 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,850870#msg-850870 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,850870#msg-850870
we have 20T...

I've tried .1618 so far with stock drivers.]]> weput Delta Machines Mon, 08 Apr 2019 10:29:04 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,849419#msg-849419 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,849419#msg-849419 Budge72 Delta Machines Sun, 17 Mar 2019 19:08:01 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,777261#msg-777261 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,777261#msg-777261 SJN Delta Machines Sun, 09 Jul 2017 11:14:05 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,777245#msg-777245 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,777245#msg-777245

From what i've gathered her the drivers on the duet wifi are already in fast decay mode?]]> Qdeathstar Delta Machines Sun, 09 Jul 2017 09:44:58 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,777200#msg-777200 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,777200#msg-777200
I almost sold it after I built it as I was convinced that it was never going to print properly, but I stuck with it, and kept searching for configuration info. Then one day, bingo! It worked as nature intended, and has done ever since. It is fast, smooth and produces top quality prints. The nozzle never clogs, it just keeps running. The only things that have happened are blown thermistors and wires snapping on hotend heater cartridges. I fit the cheapest Chinese replacements that I can find. 12v/25w or 30w.

The only thing I would wish for is a larger print bed due to the size of some items I need to print. I also have an old Smartrap that I can use as that has a 200x200 bed. I am thinking of using the parts from that to build a Hypercube, with a 400x400 bed, which means that between them the two printers would give me the best of all worlds.

The standard Sintron is quite an amazing piece of kit, the problem is that Delta's are, as I learned, an absolute pig to configure. I would guess that many think that as it is cheap, it doesn't print well due to cheap parts, so they keep buying more expensive 'upgrades'. The printer in standard form, as many will testify, is capable of some wondrous things. The issue is that whereas a Cartesian printer will print pretty well when not perfect, a Delta needs to be tweaked to perfection or it won't produce the goods.

The Ramps board is my only weak point, I think the thermistor circuit is about to give up the ghost as it keeps losing the temperature, gets to the start print stage, and then drops up and down drastically. It's had a lot of use, and I always keep a spare so that I can swap it out.]]> Wibbles Delta Machines Sun, 09 Jul 2017 04:15:50 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772294#msg-772294 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772294#msg-772294
Well, removed the TMC 2100, and installed LV8729`s. ordered 4, but one of them had a broken VREF pot.
So installed 3 on the XYZ, and a TMC on the extruder.

First cube at 1/16 stepping looked very similar to the TMC
Other cube at 1/32 looks way better.
TMC`s are silent, LV`s make some noise, and the DRV8825 are noisy.

Printed at 0.25mm height.

Tmc left, LV 1/16 middle, and LV 1/32 right

[attachment 95131 ttt.jpg]

4 sides of te 1/32 cube
[attachment 95132 18891484_10212653879839915_6779408443208791474_o.jpg]

[attachment 95133 18920753_10212653880159923_7624637257416462220_o.jpg]

[attachment 95134 18922608_10212653880439930_4650750854622693597_o.jpg]

[attachment 95135 18922799_10212653878999894_7786397901050605023_o.jpg]]]> SJN Delta Machines Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:34:18 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772278#msg-772278 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772278#msg-772278
You probably didn't do a cube at 0.202 layer height (at your old 80 steps/mm value). If you had, you would probably have seen the tree ring U shaped pattern.

Changing the steps/mm down will have the same effect, when you print at 0.2mm layer height.

It's all making sense to me now.]]> nebbian Delta Machines Wed, 07 Jun 2017 11:04:57 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772251#msg-772251 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772251#msg-772251 40 is stamped on the chinede nozzle, and 4 dots on the E3D.

I havea actually updated the firmware to another version now that I think about it......
The steps in the config file, and arm length and radious and steps has changed since I made the old cube.

New firmware and config was provided by TEVO to level the bed better. A new probe pattern with the bl touch was added.

I wonder if this has caused it...must have ?

Old config :

# Arm solution configuration : Cartesian robot. Translates mm positions into stepper positions
# See [smoothieware.org]
alpha_steps_per_mm 80 # Steps per mm for alpha ( X ) stepper and tower
beta_steps_per_mm 80 # Steps per mm for beta ( Y ) stepper and tower
gamma_steps_per_mm 80 # Steps per mm for gamma ( Z ) stepper and tower

# Delta configuration
# See [smoothieware.org]
arm_solution linear_delta # Selects the linear delta arm solution
arm_length 396.9419 # This is the length of an arm from hinge to hinge
arm_radius 156.5621 # This is the horizontal distance from hinge to hinge when the effector is centered

"New config"

# Arm solution configuration : Cartesian robot. Translates mm positions into stepper positions
# See [smoothieware.org]
alpha_steps_per_mm 79.765 # Steps per mm for alpha ( X ) stepper and tower
beta_steps_per_mm 79.765 # Steps per mm for beta ( Y ) stepper and tower
gamma_steps_per_mm 79.765 # Steps per mm for gamma ( Z ) stepper and tower

# Delta configuration
# See [smoothieware.org]
arm_solution linear_delta # Selects the linear delta arm solution
arm_length 397.1900 # This is the length of an arm from hinge to hinge
arm_radius 157.0741 # This is the horizontal distance from hinge to hinge when the effector is centered]]> SJN Delta Machines Wed, 07 Jun 2017 09:02:51 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772201#msg-772201 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772201#msg-772201 How did you secure the heatbrake in the heatsink? Was it tight or loose enough to blurr out the tree rings?]]> o_lampe Delta Machines Wed, 07 Jun 2017 02:36:54 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772199#msg-772199 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772199#msg-772199 DjDemonD Delta Machines Wed, 07 Jun 2017 02:30:16 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772177#msg-772177 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772177#msg-772177

Quote
SJN
Strange. I just removed the chinese heatbreak, and 0.4mm nozzle, and installed original E3D parts instead......now I also get the wood grain texture in my pints.....could not replicate that before at any layer height with the old nozzle
Printed at 0.25mm 0.4nozzle

That... does not compute. Gosh. Very interesting data point.]]> nebbian Delta Machines Tue, 06 Jun 2017 21:53:08 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772112#msg-772112 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,772112#msg-772112 Printed at 0.25mm 0.4nozzle

[attachment 95096 IMG_20170606_185724.jpg]

[attachment 95097 IMG_20170606_185850.jpg]

[attachment 95098 IMG_20170606_185954.jpg]]]> SJN Delta Machines Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:19:20 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,771120#msg-771120 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,771120#msg-771120 newbob Delta Machines Wed, 31 May 2017 11:29:00 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,771017#msg-771017 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,771017#msg-771017 dc42 Delta Machines Tue, 30 May 2017 18:11:56 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770983#msg-770983 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770983#msg-770983 DjDemonD Delta Machines Tue, 30 May 2017 13:44:12 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770981#msg-770981 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770981#msg-770981 RCarlyle Delta Machines Tue, 30 May 2017 13:32:27 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770785#msg-770785 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770785#msg-770785
Errors related to slow decay at the falling current quadrant(**) get worse with higher speed. But it is highly unlikely you get this problem because I doubt there is any stepper driver which would use slow decay in the falling current quadrant by default. But it is often possible to set slow decay even in the falling current quadrant. I doubt you have stepper drivers setup this way.

(*) the part of sinusoid where the value is increasing its distance from zero (regardless whether in positive or negative direction)
(**) the distance from zero is decreasing (regardless whether in positive or negative direction)

If you get nicer prints when printing slowly then it is probable you have some other problem. Besides the rare case I mentioned above, here are the examples of problems which improve with smaller printing speed and smaller accelerations:

loose belts or too elastic belts ("ringing" at the corners)
play in the printer (e.g. in the ball joints or between belt and pulleys)
overloaded MCU leading to segment buffer under-runs which lead to head movement slow-downs (decrease segment_per_second or ldc_refresh_rate)

]]> hercek Delta Machines Mon, 29 May 2017 08:07:06 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770694#msg-770694 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770694#msg-770694
So I decided to do a complete print slowly at 20mm/s and see what happen, and it actualy looks much much nicer....... why is speed effecting this ?
I dont know if you can see the differences in the pictures, but in rea llife, it is quite noticable.

Left benchie is at 40mm/s, and right is 20mm/s both 0.3mm

[attachment 94734 IMG_20170528_211347.jpg]

[attachment 94735 IMG_20170528_211605.jpg]

[attachment 94736 IMG_20170528_211410.jpg]

[attachment 94737 IMG_20170528_211420.jpg]]]> SJN Delta Machines Sun, 28 May 2017 15:33:41 -0400 https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770563#msg-770563 Re: Removing vertical lines on prints https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?178,763881,770563#msg-770563 SJN Delta Machines Sat, 27 May 2017 19:25:03 -0400