Advice on which printer to build - Prusa, Sumpod or Mosaic 3D?

Hi everyone, I found out about RepRap a few weeks ago and have been reading and lurking since. I want to embark on building my own printer now. I am undecided on which one however, so I'm hoping for some input from those of you with experience.

I have moderate DIY and electronics experience and while I would like to spend some time staying busy soldering and building, but I don't exactly have THAT much time (or patience) to spend 100's of hours sourcing and troubleshooting on a part-by-part basis. Therefore I'm looking for something that's more in a kit form. I obviously would like the price to be affordable, but I would also like it to last, and to be able to use it for actual printing down the line as opposed to a cool, but not too practical paperweight.

I'm considering either the Prusa kit from Mixshop, Sumpod or Mosaic 3D from Makergear. Does anyone have any input on my choices? Or do you think there's another kit or design that might fit my criteria?

Thanks for any input.

Hello,

You have many other printers missing from that list, so have you discounted any already or are you open to other suggestions? - first we need to know more about what you are going to do with it and how much you want to spend...

And also where in the world are you? - it can and should make a difference to what printer kit you select.

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

I was in a similar position as you a couple months ago. I had narrowed it down to building a Prusa or a Makerbot Thing-o-matic.

Prusa was cheaper and had a bigger build platform so I initially was drawn to it. After doing some research, I came to the conclusion that a Makerbot would be a better first machine for me, and really only about $500 more than purchasing a full Prusa kit from someone.

It just seemed that while the makerbot was more expensive and had a smaller build platform it would allow me to get it up and running quicker and with better prints right out of the box. And that is exactly what has happened. I built the ToM and had excellent prints from the first calibration cube I made.

Now I'm using it to build two Prusa's, and although I'm sourcing parts somewhat on my own (ie: ordering a vitamin kit, electronics, and other parts from many different vendors), I'm getting worried about how long it will take to get this sucker calibrated and printing nicely compared to the Makerbot.

I can't wait to get the Prusa's operational as I have several things I want to print that are just too big for the makerbot. Just waiting for my motors to arrive and I've already got the frames assembled, but I can definitely tell the road will be longer with them.

I could have seen myself getting more frustrated with a Prusa as my first build and possibly would have given up if I couldn't have gotten it printing as nice as my ToM in a reasonable timeframe.

Remember, I'm sourcing and assembling these Prusas on my own, not using a kit, so you might experience something closer to my makerbot experience with a full Kit with support from the vendor during assembly.

Just my two cents, and it's probably worth less than that.

There are pros and cons to each of the commercial machines and kits. Here's my amateur analysis of your real options:

Up! - $2,700, small build area, least amount calibration to get good prints (practically none from what I've heard)
Thing-O-Matic - $1,300 small build area, can print in PLA and ABS, variable amount of amount of calibration required, prints slowly, easy dual-color prints possible, very loud while printing, expensive to ship outside of the USA
Ultimaker - $1,650, largest build area, can only print in PLA, small amount of calibration required, can print ridiculously fast with incredible detail, expensive to ship outside of Europe
Sumpod - $600 - $775 (cheapest), medium sized build area, can only print in PLA, untested, speed and noise level unknown, long lead time
Prusa kit - ≈$800 - large build area, can print in PLA and ABS (as long a your kit includes a heated platform, which most do), variable to high amount of calibration required, most challenging to assemble.

I started with a Thing-O-Matic, and within three months I was printing Prusa parts and buying vitamin one at a time. I haven't touched the TOM since my Prusa has been up and running. It's a superior machine in almost every way. Faster, quieter, larger build area, amazing prints, etc. Once you have a printer with a small build area, you're going to very rapidly yearn for a larger one. It's even been more reliable—far more reliable. My TOM's Mk6+ extruder was constantly clogging and needed half of its parts replaced with superior printed ones on Thingiverse before it behaved properly. Even then, I couldn't reliably print in PLA with it, although I've heard that the new MK7s have fixed this. And the motors made a heck of a racket due to the antiquated drivers Makerbot is using.

If I had to do it all over again, I would start with a Makergear Prusa kit, a Makergear Mosaic, or save my money for an Ultimaker. I imagine that a Prusa kit from a reputable dealer such as Makergear would be barely more challenging than building a TOM or a Mosaic. The Ultimaker is almost certainly the best printer kit out there, but you'll be dropping nearly 2 grand if you're in the USA.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 12:32PM by Pointedstick.

Pointedstick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ultimaker - $1,650, largest build area, can only
> print in PLA, small amount of calibration
> required, can print ridiculously fast with
> incredible detail, expensive to ship outside of
> Europe

Most people print in PLA but I don't think there's any reason you couldn't use ABS if you wanted to.

I think going for a machine with a RAMPS board is probably a big, unmentioned thing that would be desirable. With the Ultimaker, we were using plain old "5D" a few months ago then got sprinter and are now all moving to marlin. The difference in the print speed & quality by just changing the firmware (which isn't anywhere near as scary as it sounds to a newbie) is really amazing...

As a low cost starter printer for somebody somewhat nerdy, I think it'd be really hard to beat a MakerGear Prusa. If the price isn't outside your limit, Ultimaker is a pretty insane machine (good insane, not bad insane) with a easier build/learning curve than a Prusa.

Mosaic (and probably Sumpod, though I haven't read a build report of one yet) are easiest to assemble and get running - heard somebody mention that they got their Mosaic up and printing in just 2 hours.

Dave Durant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most people print in PLA but I don't think there's
> any reason you couldn't use ABS if you wanted to.
>
>
> I think going for a machine with a RAMPS board is
> probably a big, unmentioned thing that would be
> desirable. With the Ultimaker, we were using plain
> old "5D" a few months ago then got sprinter and
> are now all moving to marlin. The difference in
> the print speed & quality by just changing the
> firmware (which isn't anywhere near as scary as it
> sounds to a newbie) is really amazing...

I was under the impression that the lack of a heated build platform made ABS warp terribly. I've only ever printed ABS on a machine with a heated platform, and even then, it sometimes warped. I imagine no heat at all would be borderline unusable. Not that I really miss it, since I find PLA to be a nicer print material in almost every way.

Also, Sanguinololu boards generally support the same firmwares that RAMPS ones do. RAMPS seems to be slightly better supported but I haven't had any major problems modernizing my Sanguinololu. I've printed with Marlin on my Sanguinololu Prusa and it's nuts. Here's an example. Both prints were done with 45 mm/sec perimeters and 80 mm/sec infill. The the one on the left used Sprinter; the one on the right, Marlin:

So what's the firmware doing differntly in those two?

se5a Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what's the firmware doing differntly in those
> two?


The Marlin firmware has look-ahead acceleration, so it knows that for some movements, it doesn't need to slow down before making the next move. With those circular perimeters, for example, it figures out that it can move from point to point without slowing down, resulting in a smoother circle. Sprinter isn't as smart, so it accelerates and decelerates for every movement from one point to the next. This results in slower speed, more vibration at high speeds, and blobbing around the vertices of circular perimeter areas. I've found that I can eliminate most of the blobbing by printing perimeters at 25 mm/sec with Sprinter, but it would be nice to be able to go faster. Alas, Marlin isn't as stable and ReplicatorG doesn't yet support it so I can't use it full-time.

Thanks for all the replies.

I forgot to add that I'm trying to keep it as much under $1,000 as possible, which is why I excluded many models such as the Thing-O-Matic and Ultimaker. I am in the USA.

My thoughts now are either the MixShop Prusa kit or Sumpod. The only thing that worries me about the Prusa is someone casually mentioned in another thread that the Prusa "built from plastic" will not last very long. Can anyone comment on it's longevity? While I want the experience of building the kit, I am also expecting a machine that will work properly for at least a few years. The Sumpod looks great, but as others have mentioned, many unknown variables. And for some reason I read the Mosaic as $800 last night, I'm not sure if I forgot how to read (most likely) or the price was raised but seeing as it's $999, I'm going to look elsewhere first.

Finally, can anyone tell me why there's almost a $400 difference between the Mixshop and Makergear Prusa kits? I know Mixshop excludes the printed parts, but those don't seem to go for more than $100 or so.

Thanks again for all the input!

EDIT: I wanted to add, the Sumpod router/CNC feature seems like an additional plus, however there isn't much detail provided on how well it actually works. I'm tempted to jump on it before it sells out, yet hesitant because of the uncertainty.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2011 12:02AM by Foogoo.

Foogoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for all the replies.
The only thing that worries me about
> the Prusa is someone casually mentioned in another
> thread that the Prusa "built from plastic" will
> not last very long. Can anyone comment on it's
> longevity?

Considering that the Prusa can print it's own parts, that point is, to some extent, moot.

I'd throw one more in the mix, and that's Mendel-Parts.com's Orca v0.3 - I ordered one a few weeks back (which I believe just shipped today), and it looks like it's going to be a great machine, and still under the $1000 price point you set. It also has the advantage of being built out of aluminum making it very rigid (and very fast)... Of course, I don't have it yet, so who knows, but I'm optimistic. I also purchased a Mosaic at the same time, which was supposed to ship last week but they're a bit behind so it should ship this week (fingers crossed) - those were my top two picks, and I decided to pick them both up to see what I thought first hand. I'll certainly post my thoughts of both once I've built and played with them, but it will be at least a couple weeks still (shipping + build time + tweaking).

As far as the plastic parts issue goes, I think pretty much all of the printers use self-printed parts (except the UP!) - but they also have body parts made out of other materials such as threaded rods, wood, aluminum, or some combination thereof. As Se5a said, virtually all of them can self-print those plastic parts, so if you're worried, calibrate it and get everything dialed in, print up a spare set, and then use it into the ground.

Pointedstick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, Sanguinololu boards generally support the
> same firmwares that RAMPS ones do. RAMPS seems to
> be slightly better supported but I haven't had any
> major problems modernizing my Sanguinololu. I've
> printed with Marlin on my Sanguinololu Prusa and
> it's nuts. Here's an example. Both prints were
> done with 45 mm/sec perimeters and 80 mm/sec
> infill. The the one on the left used Sprinter; the
> one on the right, Marlin:
>
> [techpaladin.com]
> sprinter-vs-marlin.jpg

Do you know if the Marlin Firmware supports the use of an SD card yet? (Like Sprinter)

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

Quote

I am also expecting a machine that will work properly for at least a few years.

I don't think any of these machines, even professional ones, will run for years without something breaking or wearing out. The advantage of Reprap is every part is easily replaceable.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Based on all the input, I think I'm sold on a Reprap based on their price, opensource-ness and replicability. The question now is, which one and from where?

Has anyone had any personal experience (good or bad) with any complete kits? Or I'm considering waiting for an eMaker Huxley, which appears to be having a successful beta program so far.

Foogoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Based on all the input, I think I'm sold on a
> Reprap based on their price, opensource-ness and
> replicability. The question now is, which one and
> from where?
>
> Has anyone had any personal experience (good or
> bad) with any complete kits? Or I'm considering
> waiting for an eMaker Huxley, which appears to be
> having a successful beta program so far.


The Huxleys are solid and inexpensive. A friend of mine has one and it's been really fantastic for him. Personally, I want a bigger build area, but if that's not a concern for you, it's hard to go wrong with an eMaker Huxley.

I've just started using marlin and I've got it printing from an sd card. Don't think I had to do anything special to get it to work. I'm using a mega based board mind you - which has 8k sram. I had a quick look at the memory map of the firmware file and if I'm interpreting it correctly it indicated that with SD enabled it uses a bit over 4k - so poss there isn't room on a Sanguinololu.

It doesn't cost much more to build a Prusa or Sells Mendel and the print area is much bigger.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

I think I am sold on the Prusa after doing a little more reading, so some final questions before I embark on this adventure:

I plan on getting the Mixshop kit with 0.35mm nozzle and 3mm filament. Does anyone see any glaring problem with my plan or is there another kit seller you've had luck with? Based off browsing the For Sale forums and this blog entry, it doesn't look like I'll be saving that much money if I source the parts myself. Agree/disagree? Thanks for the help!

I have never done business with them but the fact that they sell fully assembled Prusa Mendels but don't have a picture of one is very suspicious to me.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

Hmm.. That mixshop "full" prusa kit doesn't seem to include the plastic parts. So you'll have to source those separate.

Not sure which part of the country you are in, but I'm North of Atlanta. If you need a set of plastics I can probably help you out.

@ostrich99: Where exactly? My younger sister lives in Acworth and I will be there the last two weeks in November.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

@rhmorrison I'm in Sugar Hill. Probably about an Hour from Acworth.

There is a hackerspace I've been wanting to check out in Atlanta called Freeside Atlanta. They generally have some open gathering days and a 3D printing day every so often too. Might be worth checking out while you are in town. Let me know if you are heading down there and I'll try and meet you there.

I wanted to last year.
It was the day I left a special RepRap day and my niece was interested in seeing it but she had to take her SAT's that day so I didn't bother to go.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse