RepRap detail quality?

I've been thinking about gettinga RepRap to use to print custom figures for Warhammer 40k. Obviously I take this hobby pretty seriously since I'm willing to spend $700 on a machine for it, but I think over time it could pay for itself (40k models can be very expensive and any decent sized army will have a LOT of them). Before I make up my mind I wanted to find out if a RepRap could even handle the level of detail neccessary to make decent figures. Could someone tell me what level of detail they can handle?

Yes, they can. This is a goal of mine too, and it's reachable with layers that are 0.08 mm thick and lower. Take a look at some high-detail Ultimaker prints; most well-built and -maintained RepRaps are perfectly capable of the same quality with good enough gcode to drive the machine. The challenge is getting models that have enough detail to take advantage of that resolution. 3D scanners able to capture that kind of resolution may well be very expensive.

I did that when I was a lad and I can tell you now that. No it can't. I am familiar with the kind of detail you are wanting and this printing technique is not the right kind at all.

Its better at strong plastic parts for things rather than models of any detail.

And before anyone gets too eager to say I'm being defeatist the models they are making now are so detailed that they can't me made by injection moulding. I have seen them and they are really something to behold in terms of detail. I think the only printers which might come close are the ones used to make the custom jewelry patterns for moulding. We are more than a long way off this kind of detail.

Another method of printing would be needed for this. Maybe the UV resin type.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2011 02:47PM by Madkite.

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Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
[www.thingiverse.com]

What do you use to paint PLA?

A Homemade UV resin printer is being developed.

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Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
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You might want to try sending your 3d files to a printing house first. That would let you see just how much detail you could get without buying (and getting frustrated with) your own printer. The non-commercial Mendel is a little too rough around the edges for people who want to make high quality models. Don't get one unless you're more interested in tinkering with the machine than using it.

If you do decide to get a mendel you could experiment with precision upgrades like the one Madkite linked to. You could also have someone machine you an extra-fine extruder nozzle. Then it's just a matter of ensuring you can slice your models thin enough to take advantage of the new hardware.

makeme Wrote:
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> You might want to try sending your 3d files to a
> printing house first. That would let you see just
> how much detail you could get without buying (and
> getting frustrated with) your own printer.
E.g. take a look at Shapeways [www.shapeways.com] (sorry for the "advertisement" - I have absolutely no affiliation with them) or similar on-line 3D printing companies. This way, you can upload a model file and a couple of days later, get a sample in your hands for just a few dollars, to see for yourself what is achievable by top of the range equipment. You can then decide whether you want to invest in your own RepRap printer - which WON'T be able to achieve the finest level of detail that can be achieved with the best commercial 3D printing techniques, but should be able to get close to commercial FDM.

The Shapeways "Material Comparison Sheet" [www.shapeways.com] is a handy guide - their "Grey Robust" material is printed by FDM, so should be comparable to a well-tuned RepRap; much finer detail is possible with other technologies such as SLS (Selective Laser Sintering) - e.g. check out their "White Strong Robust".

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Follow my Mendel Prusa build here: [julianh72.blogspot.com]

julianh72 Wrote:
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> You can then decide whether you want to invest in
> your own RepRap printer - which WON'T be able to
> achieve the finest level of detail that can be
> achieved with the best commercial 3D printing
> techniques, but should be able to get close to
> commercial FDM.

Actually... [printthat.wordpress.com]
I don't think it's totally accurate to say that the commercial machines have an lock on high-quality prints. An expensive open-source printer with cutting edge math (and an experienced person tuning it) can produce details so small you'd have a hard time feeling them with your finger.

Hell, instead of sending your files to a commercial service just ask some of the guys in the community if they'll print your file at the highest level of detail they can achieve. Open source 3D printers are already getting most of their attention from art projects anyway (project shellter anyone?) so if you have a cool miniature they might be interested in proving their printer will work for that application.

Second that. Top-quality reprap prints (and those of variants like ultimaker) are surpassing the quality of low-end commercial printers, and if you have your print done by a professional shop you may not get the kind of detail that you'd be able to achieve with a tuned reprap. I'm not sure they'll let you select an ultra-fine layer thickness, for example.

If you have a 3D model in mind, you could contact some people who have posted photos of impressive prints and ask if they'd be willing to try printing it for you. I doubt they could resist the challenge

makeme / jbayless,

You missed my point - I said:

" ... your own RepRap printer - which WON'T be able to achieve the finest level of detail that can be achieved with the best commercial 3D printing techniques, but should be able to get close to commercial FDM."

Yes, a well-tuned home-built RepRap should be able to "get close to commercial FDM" (by which I mean the sort of FDM machine used by commercial 3D printing bureaus), and therefore probably out-perform a low-end commercial FDM printer (ready-made or kit).

However, I still maintain that even the best RepRap won't (yet) match the resolution that can be achieved "with the best commercial 3D printing techniques" - e.g. has anyone yet built a RepRap that will match (or better) the consistent sub-0.2 mm resolution that can be achieved with professional SLS machines?

Don't get me wrong - I'm a HUGE fan of RepRap, but I have yet to see someone make a finely rendered model soldier carrying a gun (like this one [www.shapeways.com] ) on a RepRap. If that is what you are after (and I suspect that is what the OP was alluding to when talking about Warhammer figurines!), then RepRap may not be your best bet - yet. (In another year or so - who knows?)

And yes, I agree with jbayless - to the OP:
Post a copy of an STL file or similar of what you are seeking, and I am sure someone will have a go. Heck - I'll even have a go myself! Just be aware that my machine isn't yet at the state-of-the-art as to what can be achieved given time and expertise, but is probably a pretty fair representation of what an enthusiastic beginner can reasonably hope to achieve (or exceed) in a reasonably short time frame.

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Follow my Mendel Prusa build here: [julianh72.blogspot.com]

Yes, absolutely post a file and I will definitely be one of the people who will not be able to resist printing it with as much detail as my printer can muster!

julianh72 Wrote:
> However, I still maintain that even the best
> RepRap won't (yet) match the resolution that can
> be achieved "with the best commercial 3D printing
> techniques" - e.g. has anyone yet built a RepRap
> that will match (or better) the consistent sub-0.2
> mm resolution that can be achieved with
> professional SLS machines?

Again, that's not entirely fair. You're comparing two different methods of additive manufacturing. FDM really SHOULD tend to be less accurate than SLS...
[makerblock.com]
...That being said, even shapeways only seems to take their SLS prints down to .1mm layer height...
[www.shapeways.com]
...that post I linked to previously explains that the Ultimaker is printing at .02mm. Also, the Ultimaker wiki claims <.05mm positioning accuracy...
[wiki.ultimaker.com]

My point is that the dramatic increase in open-source 3D printer performance over just the last year points to the idea that 3D printing simply isn't inherently difficult or expensive. It's entirely possible you will always need a professional machine if you want commercial-level repeatability. However, one of the primary benefits of 3D printing is how cheap (fast?) it is to print again if there was something about the first print you didn't like. Even if the open source printers never get that repeatability problem solved, it will still cost you nothing but time to keep printing parts until you randomly get enough that match the tolerance you're looking for. (hopefully someone will invent a practical recycler)

> Don't get me wrong - I'm a HUGE fan of RepRap, but
> I have yet to see someone make a finely rendered
> model soldier carrying a gun (like this one
> [www.shapeways.com] ) on a
> RepRap. If that is what you are after (and I
> suspect that is what the OP was alluding to when
> talking about Warhammer figurines!), then RepRap
> may not be your best bet - yet. (In another year
> or so - who knows?)

Again, not really a fair comparison. Something like that would print a lot better in a powder bed. Hell, the vast majority of "artsy" prints will work better in an SLS machine simply because the layer separation is less apparent and there's no need to account for gravity. In theory, though, an FDM printer could print more details simply by making the nozzle smaller. I wonder how small a hole has to get before plastic won't squeeze through it anymore.

> And yes, I agree with jbayless - to the OP:
> Post a copy of an STL file or similar of what you
> are seeking, and I am sure someone will have a go.
> Heck - I'll even have a go myself! Just be aware
> that my machine isn't yet at the state-of-the-art
> as to what can be achieved given time and
> expertise, but is probably a pretty fair
> representation of what an enthusiastic beginner
> can reasonably hope to achieve (or exceed) in a
> reasonably short time frame.

Another thing to keep in mind is that additive manufacturing isn't supposed to do everything in one step. Anyone who wants to make a bunch of little game models is probably okay with the idea of obsessively detailing each one of them. The time saved by printing the models could be spent with an x-acto knife carving out the little details like buttons. Or, the printer could be used to make a single master, which could be turned into a mold that could produce a whole army of figures.

I wonder if you could design the model in pieces (like arms and legs and whatnot) and then write a script for OpenSCAD that would combine them all in slightly different ways. Then each model that got printed would be in a different pose, but would still obviously be the same unit. The script could swap in different weapons and different terrain on the baseplate and stuff like that. No need to personally create each different pose.

@makeme:

You keep accusing me of "unfair comparisons" - i'm not TRYING to compare "like for like", i'm just trying to answer the OP's original question about whether RepRap is suitable for making military figurines. In my opinion, RepRap almost certainly won't be able to reproduce the sort of fine detail they are wanting to see at the scale required - yet. But there are other 3D technologies like SLS which can. However, these machines are still very expensive, hence my suggestion to try a commercial 3D print shop first, to see what is possible.

I'm still keen for the OP to upload a sample model so we (the RepRap community) can have a go. I would LOVE to be proved wrong, by a RepRapper making some 50 mm high figurines with exquisite fine detail!

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Follow my Mendel Prusa build here: [julianh72.blogspot.com]

I'm still waiting for someone to post an STL of a nice model or something so I/we can have a go at making the most detailed prints of it that we can muster.

> Again, that's not entirely fair. You're comparing
> two different methods of additive manufacturing.
> FDM really SHOULD tend to be less accurate than
> SLS...

It's entirely fair. If you're trying to get a high quality model you don't restrict yourself to one way of doing it, just like I don't waste my time telling you what the best spoon is to dig a hole when you can afford a shovel.

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Chris Sketch
Ann Arbor, MI
blog.chrissketch.com

We’re here to put a dent in the universe. Otherwise why else even be here?
—Steve Jobs

chrissketch Wrote:
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> > I don't waste my time
> telling you what the best spoon is to dig a hole
> when you can afford a shovel.


+1!

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Follow my Mendel Prusa build here: [julianh72.blogspot.com]

julianh72 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm still keen for the OP to upload a sample model
> so we (the RepRap community) can have a go. I
> would LOVE to be proved wrong, by a RepRapper
> making some 50 mm high figurines with exquisite
> fine detail!


I'm still somewhat sceptical of the ability of current-day RepRap to make finely detailed "figurines" (with guns, bayonets, etc), but it seems you CAN make some models that are suitable for Warhammer 40k: [www.thingiverse.com]

To the OP: if you were wanting to make models with THAT sort of detail - go and build yourself a RepRap now!

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Follow my Mendel Prusa build here: [julianh72.blogspot.com]

chrissketch Wrote:
> It's entirely fair. If you're trying to get a high
> quality model you don't restrict yourself to one
> way of doing it...

You do if you're on the Reprap board asking about what you can print under $700.

The suggestion was already made that he test out what a professional rapid prototyping machine could do for him. As far as I know there isn't an open source SLS printer. If he wants it under $700 then even an Ultimaker is out of the question. My point was that since the Ultimaker can match or surpass the accuracy of for-hire 3D printing then a properly outfitted and tuned Reprap should be nearly as capable.

Also that getting a Reprap to that point would be frustrating.

Additionally that the accuracy of the finished product could be cheaply increased with post-processing. Anyone who's serious about figurines should be handy with a paintbrush and x-acto knife.

[technabob.com]
Well, now Ultimaker and Makerbot have examples of detailed figurines. Looks like it's up to someone with a well-calibrated Reprap to provide some comparisons.

I don't know if an FDM printer can print Warhammer 40k figures but it can definitely print ponies

I printed it on my EMC repstrap using support structures and a layer height of 0.1mm, the material is PLA :

A fine tuned reprap mendel or prusa can certainly do the same, it's the same technology.
If some people want to start an high quality printing contest I'm ready !

This is one of my smallest prints.



Printed at 0.1mm layers with 0.35 nozzle on a modified prusa (one z motor, bronze bushings, 1/4" z-lead screws, diagonal braces).

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 04:23PM by Sublime.

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@Sublime: That's an awesome print!

hey, anyone would like to give this model a shot?



I am happy to "donate" this figure I modelled over a month time for a competition.

They are composed of many separate pieces, but I can try my very best to join them together. Give me 1-2 days!

BTW there are 71k polygons

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 07:13PM by ahbtsang.

This is a really interesting discussion. If anyone would like to get a HIGHLY detailed 28mm sized (i.e. Warhammer size) figurine STL - just shoot me a PM and your email address.

I can give it a try.
Is there any reason you can't upload the model, so anyone can try it ?

Hi Petrus - sent it to you. File is too large to upload.

I printed the figurine standing upright :

I'm gonna start up some STLs for this. I wonder if we could convince some of the meshers from the TWC Forums who made the Call of Warhammer models to make some designs for 3d printing... ><