mendel-parts, open source and GPL

Hi Everyone,

I just noticed something very disturbing on the mendel-parts site [www.mendel-parts.com]. In case it gets taken down i've copied the relevant part which is at the bottom of the page on the MP site.

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ps. it is unsure when we will release plastic parts / thick sheet files, due to everyone copying our items all over the world before we managed to get our costs out is unacceptable, therefore we will delay releases from now on a bit, so we know for sure we are not working for another company without getting paid

Camiel Gubbels at mendel-parts has developed the orca series of machines based on the mendel. The wiki entry on the reprap site says that it is derived from the mendel. The GPL license of the mendel says that any derivative works must also be GPL licenced and all source files must be made available (Charging a reasonable amount for distribution is acceptable I believe). I'm one of the many people that have had a long wait for an orca to be delivered and I have been hoping that some competition from other companies creating orca kits would get mendel parts to wake up and stop taking his customers for granted. The note above really disturbs me as its clear that he is closing the cource for his latest orca in clear contravention of the GPL. What are the options here? If this was software then the EFF might be interested. From reading the GPL, I think the only person who can take any action is the owner of any copyrighted works that have been incorporated into the orca. Has anything like this happened before?

Regards

Pete

pete-theobald Wrote:
> Camiel Gubbels at mendel-parts has developed the
> orca series of machines based on the mendel. The
> wiki entry on the reprap site says that it is
> derived from the mendel.

Those mean that it's derived from Mendel at an idea level, not on a level that would be objectionable on copyright or source licensing basis. All the individual parts are different, it just shares a similar design philosophy, general dimensions etc... so I don't believe that it would count as a derivative work in the copyright/license sense, which GPL is all about. If Mendel was patented, that would be different story.

I don't agree and i'm seeing some disturbing messages on the mendel parts site as well as no design files for the new orca 0.4 which should be released if its GPL licensed. My orca 0.3 is definitely based on the GPL'd mendel. I think the gen6 deluxe electronics are a completely new design so it doesnt need the files to be released, but it would help to have a manual for the thing so I can get the heated bed working.
Theress also a message on Camiels blog saying that hes going to be keeping everything secret from now on. The GPL is meant to prevent this sort of behaviour for the good of the community and he wouldn't be where he is now without that initial work.

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Also we are a webshop, that means no pickup anymore, no coming by for chatting (during week) etc, its very simple: from the past we have learned this just takes up hours of time everyday, which we dont have. And also I have decided that alot we do here is top-secret from now on and therefor visitors are not welcome anymore.
I really hate to say that, it goes in against things i believe, but trust me, we have todo that at this time, to get catched up on orders and to avoid spies here...

Pete

I think he is paranoid, cus of some Indian webshop copying orca 0,3 www.makemendel.com i think it's called. or a victim of his own success, i certainly considered buying an orca 0,4 right up untill i saw the forums flooded with messages about delayed delivery, missing parts, broken parts, and then not being able to reach the guy, i even tried calling a few times with no answer and he clearly says on his website he does not reply or check his mails. That is more then enough for me to decide to purchase elsewhere

or is he doing it part-time? or not making enough money to hire some freaking help?

Camiel has been doing this for a while, I believe he is running a full-time web shop, so I consider this a combination of paranoia and victim of his own success, as you've suggested. I'm pretty sure he has hired help, but it sounds like he needs more. I think he would do much much better if he hired someone full time to handle customer interactions. If you read thru his older posts you can see an ever-increasing frustration dealing with high and increasing expectations on him. He seems to be a perfectionist who really wants to satisfy everyone until he reaches the breaking point, then it's F@&$ Y'All!

I purchased a fair amount of stuff thru him last year, the deliveries were a bit slow but the product was all of high quality when it arrived. I'm sad to hear reports of broken parts.

and at least he list's things as "out of stock" now when they are.
that alone should make his shop run better.
i love my orca 3 btw.

Pete, if you don't like it just don't buy from there. He's under no obligation to release his source unless he is editing someone else's open source design files (which I doubt he is)

I think it's mostly reasonable. In an open source market, being the first to offer something is a relatively big advantage, since it takes a little time to copy things and your name gets out as the creator. It is pretty painful to see others making money off your design before you've finished it and recouped your development losses.

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www.Fablicator.com

Anyone knows why the site is down for a few days already now?
I get worried, as my prepayed Orca v0.4 was still in production phase......yet to be deliverd. :-(

Thomas

owned lol

for those who wish to build an orca series, even the 0.4 makemendel.com in india has the stls' and dxt's for the metal parts, i had my metal peices cut in a waterjet, and ordered the eletronics and hardware from makemendel

Edit, have you ever noticed how often the guy is strung out on red bull and weed at 6 in the morning ranting on youtube about reinventing the spoon? if you pay close attention on almost every video all the printers are idle, they ain't making anything, so is that a shortage on electronics from vendors or a shortage of orders?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 05:50AM by Asger.

Hi,

Same thing happened to me. According to Camiel's last blog entry he was supposed to ship my Orca this week. Now the entire web site is down. That was the last straw for me. I'm ok with delayed deliveries but shutting down entire web site of a business without any explanation is inexcusable (thus leaving no contact information). I had to track down his phone number from Google page cache. Not that it helped at all. He's not answering his phone. I will be filing a Paypal dispute to get my money back.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and speculate he is changing webhosts, webshop or something arbitrary.

Considering the man is known for delaying, and not that interactive with his customers leaving this

"MENDEL-PARTS IS TEMPORARILY OFFLINE
MORE NEWS COMING SOON"

Message on a bomb like shutting down the website is beyond me.. the stupidity is strong with this one! I don't think his level of stupidity can be cured

let's hope nobody has paid with a wire transfer if he is NOT remodelling his website (like that's a good priority considering the backorders)

Ok, status update. Just managed to reach Camiel via phone. Had a good chat with him (really nice guy, btw!) He's not planning to take our money and run . His website was hacked and he's in the process of fixing it. Existing order are secured and being processed. So no cancellation for me after all.

His forum was online a couple of days ago but full of spam so i'm guessing hes been hacked. He was running the site on a standard ecommerce platform and the forum on phopb3 which has a long history of security problems. I hope for other peoples sake (I bought an orca 3 through paypal which was received and does actually print) that his email hasn't been hacked as well, though at least somebody would be reading it.

Sodacon - I spoke to Camiel a couple of times while waiting for my orca and he is a genuinely nice guy, however he promised me on several occasions that he would be sending my orda in the next couple of days and it still took about a month and a half to turn up. Worth talking to him but don't believe for a second that he will actually deliver on time, though he has delivered eventually.

p

whatever you guys do, don,t file a dispute!
believe me, it will make it harder on you in the long run.
i tried to cancel after 11 weeks only to have it arrive 10 days later.
then i had to jump through hoops to pay for it again.

camiel will deliver, it just takes forever.

but it figures that his site goes down the same day i break my v9

Then he should have written "MENDEL-PARTS IS TEMPORARILY OFFLINE BECAUSE THE KOREANS HAXED ME
MORE NEWS COMING SOON"

This is exactly the problem I have with the GPL. Gubbels isn't some kind of hoarder of intellectual property. The man is doing an incredible service to the reprap community, and all he wants to do is keep his own files out of the hands of copycats for a short time.

If Gubbels went around talking about lawsuits against people who copy components of his designs, then I would be rightfully condemning him. Likewise, when I see people here agitating for lawsuits against Gubbels I must similarly condemn that sentiment.

Don't let the intellectual property disputes that poison the closed-source world also infect the reprap community!

In mean time, the message on the website has been changed to be a bit more informa tive :-)

Thomas

Orca is not a Mendle derivative. To say so would be like claiming that the RepRap foundation has a patent on 3-axis gantries made from extruded plastic filament.

Credit should be given where credit is due. It is an original idea , and a lot of hard work has clearly gone into the design, to address issues found in other machines, like Mendel.

I like the approach that Makerbot has taken with their licensing. They trademark the name, and simply ask that others not use the Makerbot name in describing their clones. They also encourage people benefiting from the release of these designs to at least purchase some of their components from Makerbot to help sustain development in the future.

Clearly, Makerbot and Mendel-Parts began their efforts with the idea of forming profitable businesses around their work. The fact that they released anything at all open source is to be commended. They took all the risk, and put real skin in the game, unlike that outfit in India, who takes, but doesn't give anything back (at least as far as I know. I'm not familiar with them at all).

If you like what's being done with Orca (PrintrBot, MakerBot, Ultimaker, SumoPod, {Your Printer Company Here}), show your support AND your appreciation. It's not easy doing any of this.

i miss watching all the videos he used to make.
walking around the shop, listening to pink floyd
watching 20?odd printers running at the same time.

although i dont think hes ever gonna let anyone see his shop anymore.

His site is back up now

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Experimenting in 3D in New Zealand

Yes, andf for those who have ordered Orca's.... The blog-page lists order nr's and estimate ship weeks... :-)

Thomas