Quality of MendelMax vs Ultimaker

Ok, flame suite on.

I've been browsing and searching this forum for a few days trying to make a decision on buying a MendelMax kit or an Ultimaker. In addition to the normal use, of printing Yoda's head, I'd like to print off small molds. Currently I produce molds using a high-res SLA process through a rapid prototyping company. This arrangement worked great for my first couple of molds, but now that I'm producing a much higher number of molds it's becoming extraordinarily expensive. The cost of just one mold would cover the cost of a complete Ultimaker. Obviously I'm not expecting either device to measure up to commercial class SLA machines, but I still want to produce molds that are fairly high quality.

In other threads like this, everyone has been quick to point out that build quality is a huge factor in the quality of any resulting parts. Fair enough, so lets assume ideal circumstances, ie. a full MendelMax kit from the mendel store, built by the grand master of RepRaps, signed by Dr. Bowyer and blessed by the pope. What will produce better results, the MendelMax or the Ultimaker?

I have been able to find a number of quality examples for both units online. From the examples I could find, it seems like the Ultimaker is in the lead as far as detail goes. The Mendel on the other hand is half the price, ships in half the time, has a heated build platform, and makes me feel warm and fuzzy. So what way should I go? I also found a rumor that the people over at Ultimaker have been working on a HBP for it, so that might not be a huge issue.

Anyway, I'm currently leaning towards Ultimaker, unless there's something I've seriously overlooked?

Thoughts?

If sheer overall quality is the main concern, I'd vote for the MendelMax, simply because it isn't limited to bowden cable and thus have tighter control over extrusion. I'm very impressed by the quality people are getting with bowden, and the software compensation have come a long way. But on tiny parts requiring a lot of short retraction moves a bowden cable will string more than a extruder closer to the nozzle.

A MendelMax would on certain parts take much longer than an Ultimaker to achieve the same quality, but that is only a time concern. You can put a bowden cable on any RepRap and make it print fast, you might be able to hack a regular extruder onto an Ultimaker, but you will get quality and speed that's lower than a MendelMax, and the whole point of the construction would be gone.

If you just would like to print, get an Ultimaker or any other commercial kit with support.

If you like the idea of RepRap, love to hack and design your own parts while upgrading as you go, build the MendelMax (or any other RepRap). While it will require more self study and probably take more time, it's easy upgradable and more future proof.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

I would also vote for MendelMax because you have multiple vendors selling plastic parts, extrusions and hardware are available from multiple vendors, and compatibility with the huge world of RepRap parts (hot ends, carriages, etc).

I have an Ultimaker and the biggest complaint I have is the secret BOM and that all replacement parts are single-source (from Ultimaker Ltd). So when I have a problem, I have no choice but to go to them. I've been trying to hack Makergear parts (barrel, groovemount) in the meantime because they are a domestic shop and it doesn't cost me a fortune to get it delivered, if at all. I've cut my losses and decided to go with a regular Prusa Mendel and am working on getting proficient in that so I can print the parts to build a MendelMax of my own.

In about 240 hours worth of printing before the hot end clogged up and compounded upon itself in complexity to repair*, I still wasn't able to get the retraction dialed in universally for the bowden extruder, nor speeds dialed in. It was very much a "per print" setting: I managed to get a hollow pyramid printed with minimal stringing and ooze and those settings didn't translate to this fairie offering temple. So it can be done, but expect many many tries. Aside from a quick setup guide for Skeinforge, most of the work being done from the software side is Netfab centric, so that's a bit disappointing since that is both non-free and non-open.

Going the kit route, the Maxbot store has a complete kit for $1100, while the Ultimaker is €1194, about $1500 USD, both not including shipping.

* a part that, in kit form, came pre-assembled -- I reckon due to difficulty -- but still eventually failed.

One of the biggest reasons I built a MendelMax and now sell parts for them is because I desperately wanted Ultimaker-level quality in a RepRap. A MendelMax can do it. The problem with the Ultimaker is that stringing will nearly always be a concern due to the bowden setup, and this isn't a problem with a MendelMax. Of course, the moving extruder limits the top speed a bit, but with such frame rigidity on both, you're talking like 250 mm/sec vs 200 mm/sec.

In addition, you can easily add a heated bed to a MendelMax and build a scaled-up version with a gigantic print bed (mine is 270x270) without much trouble at all. It's really a great machine.

Thanks for all the comments. It gave me a lot to think about. The more and more I thought about it, the more torn I became. It seems like each device has its own merits, and neither was clearly the winner. One thing hit me though, and that is if I went with a MendelMax I would definitely want to customize it, and this could potentially extend the timeline until I was up and running by quite a bit. So I've decided to do both. I'm going to buy an Ultimaker and use it primarily for my molds, and also for printing the required parts for the MendelMax. This actually makes a lot more sense, since now I can tinker with the MendelMax instead of worrying about being out of business when I need to print molds. It also means I will have the right tool for the job, regardless of the type of model I need to print.

Please report back how you find the quality of one compared to the other. I don't think many people have both.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

nophead Wrote:
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> Please report back how you find the quality of one
> compared to the other. I don't think many people
> have both.

Yes, please report back with comparison.

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__________________________________________________________________________
"I like to be, what I like to see, in you and me.
I am the Stallion, Mang."

ISTAR Scope Club

Stop wasting money on an Ultimaker!
There are people starving in Africa and you are about to buy 2 printers.
Just build/buy a Prism Mendel, Mendel90 or MendelMax.
You can outsource your prints if your Mendel isn't working.

I went with a mendelmax based design and ended up spending about $750 total on the build. The prints are very, very nice.

IRBaboon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop wasting money on an Ultimaker!
> There are people starving in Africa and you are
> about to buy 2 printers.
> Just build/buy a Prism Mendel, Mendel90 or
> MendelMax.
> You can outsource your prints if your Mendel isn't
> working.

Well, it's pretty ignorant to assume I'm wasting money on the Ultimaker. I'm going to be printing off molds, and with those molds making hundreds/thousands of parts. Spending an extra $500 to get top notch quality is a CHEAP investment, especially compared to the amount of time I will be putting into manually making the parts from the molds.

The MendelMax might be the same quality, and you might be right, I MIGHT have paid an extra $500 for nothing. But truth be told, I have not seen a single print from a MendelMax that has looked as good as any of these: [davedurant.wordpress.com] So right now, all of the information I have says it was worth it.

It made even more sense for me, because I really wanted to try my hand at a completely custom RepRap. There are design aspects I really don't like about the MendelMax, so I wanted to set out and build a RepRap with everything in it that I want. That's only practical if I had another 3D printer on hand.

Hi everybody,
I'm building a scale up version of the Ultimaker (X2 price). Not the same price point, definitely more than the MendelMax. But build to print at the speed of the UM, with possibly better accuracy (stronger frame and different belt driving system). And since I'm building a machine for Ultra Large prints (roughly 64 times the build enveloppe volume of the UM or MM), I'm also working on a granule extruder along with it (to replace the expensive spools).
If you are interested in my current work, check out this blog: [3dlargeprinter.blogspot.com]

I don't know how people are building MendelMax's for anywhere near $1000. Like i said before mine totaled out just under $750, and that's with lead screws, precision ground smooth rod with bronze bushings, and a custom y-axis with cast aluminum build plate ground flat to a thousandth. My build was originally $568 total before I added the lead screws and better smooth rod (used threaded/drill rod before). Everything was bought at retail price from Fastenal and Misumi.

Point is: the Ultimaker is nearly 3x as expensive, not $500 more. There is absolutely nothing at all to suggest that a MendelMax with good linear motion and gt2 belts couldn't print anything an Ultimaker could just as well, and in actuality it'll probably be far easier to achieve with a normal extruder instead of the Bowden on the Ultimaker. The Ultimaker's bowden may be a bit faster, but if you care about quality, speed is an afterthought anyway. It's 200mm/s vs. 250mm/s. Nearly negligible when taken with all the other variables.

OnTheMF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IRBaboon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stop wasting money on an Ultimaker!
> > There are people starving in Africa and you are
> > about to buy 2 printers.
> > Just build/buy a Prism Mendel, Mendel90 or
> > MendelMax.
> > You can outsource your prints if your Mendel
> isn't
> > working.
>
> Well, it's pretty ignorant to assume I'm wasting
> money on the Ultimaker. I'm going to be printing
> off molds, and with those molds making
> hundreds/thousands of parts. Spending an extra
> $500 to get top notch quality is a CHEAP
> investment, especially compared to the amount of
> time I will be putting into manually making the
> parts from the molds.
>
> The MendelMax might be the same quality, and you
> might be right, I MIGHT have paid an extra $500
> for nothing. But truth be told, I have not seen a
> single print from a MendelMax that has looked as
> good as any of these:
> [davedurant.wordpress.com]
> er-faq-but-what-about-the-quality-of-prints/ So
> right now, all of the information I have says it
> was worth it.
>
> It made even more sense for me, because I really
> wanted to try my hand at a completely custom
> RepRap. There are design aspects I really don't
> like about the MendelMax, so I wanted to set out
> and build a RepRap with everything in it that I
> want. That's only practical if I had another 3D
> printer on hand.

So, what is the conclusion on that? Is the Mendel Max 1.5+ better in quality than Ultimaker? We know that it's cheaper.

I've seen many photos of Ultimaker prints and they are just great. However, Mendel Max prints were not so good. Therefore I personaly think that Ultimaker prints better.

Here are some of the Ultimaker prints:
Ultimaker print 1
Ultimaker print 2
Ultimaker print 3

Mendel Max prints:
Mendel Max print 1
Mendel Max print 2
Mendel Max print 3

But it may depend on extruder or sw somehow and there is perhaps chance to get better. Does anyone understand it and know if it is possible to achive at leat the same quality or better prints with MM1.5+ than Ultimaker? What components (sw, extruder, controller, x,y,z axes, ...) should be used in MM1.5+ build to get the best print quality?

If you're going to do any sort of comparison you need to compare the same print, at similar layer heights.

I have a Mendel Max, and I'd recommend it to people, it's an easy build, rigid and you can get good quality and speed out of it, it took me a long time to get rid of some marginal ZWobble on mine, but now there isn't much to complain about quality wise, and I have some issues with parts of the 1.0 design.

The Ultimaker also looks pretty nice to me, if I could source one in the US for a reasonable price I'd add one to my collection, but I'm not shipping printer parts from Europe.
There are a lot of things I like about the Ultimaker design and I've seen some stellar prints on one, having said that I've seen stellar prints on all sort os printers including many on bog standard Prusa's or similar. Quality IMO is largely a function of quality of mechanical assembly coupled with how well calibrated the machine is.

I think where machines like the Ultimaker have an advantage in quality is, it's a single set of parts and that means the manufacturer can provide you with calibrated firmware or something very close. The supplied Net fab settings for Ultimaker give people a head start on quality prints, all the configurations also happen to very low default layer heights 0.15mm or less, the same thing can be seen with the quality that some inexperienced people are getting out of Tantilus, Sublime is providing firmware customized to the parts and Slicer settings as starting points.

On the Bowden thing, I don't think it's cut and dried specifically on gantry machines or machines like the Rostock where getting the extruder weight off the carriage lets you run really high acceleration. I think you'll get more consistent deposition of plastic because print velocities can be maintained, and as a result extruder pressure will remain closer to constant.

Printman,

Your MendelMax prints are from other types of printers, not from a Mendel Max. The first one is with a Makergear card (they don't make a Mendel Max), the second one is from a standard Mendel, and the third part is from ???? (because it wasn't printed on the machine is is installed on and that machine is incomplete).

The Mendel Max is an extruded aluminum version of a Mendel.

For a proper comparison, you need parts from the correct printer you are comparing.

Take Care.

I dialed stringing out of my Bowden equipped Huxley Pro

It can be done!

& with a .3mm nozzel and 0.2mm layer heights, in can get razor sharp smooth prints

Hurray for Slic3r and Marlin!

You might also want to not consider only the best looking item ever produced one time by one of those machines, but an averaging of quality over time.

I believe the mendel max will get good quality longer than an ultimaker. The latter is usually a pain to maintain (talking from experience here).

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Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

Beekeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Printman,
>
> Your MendelMax prints are from other types of
> printers, not from a Mendel Max. The first one is
> with a Makergear card (they don't make a Mendel
> Max), the second one is from a standard Mendel,
> and the third part is from ???? (because it wasn't
> printed on the machine is is installed on and that
> machine is incomplete).
>
> The Mendel Max is an extruded aluminum version of
> a Mendel.
>
> For a proper comparison, you need parts from the
> correct printer you are comparing.
>
> Take Care.

Mmm, third image is placed on the page with topic "MendelMax", but sure, it could be printed by different printer. Second is from [techpaladin.com] and there are articles about MendelMax. The first is also placed on the site containing an article about mendel max with photos, so I thought....well how I can recognize that it is from the mendel max and not a mendel...?

E.g. here is the maze printed on Mendel Max. Do know about any print photos come from MM1.5+ ?

Idolcrasher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> & with a .3mm nozzel and 0.2mm layer heights, in
> can get razor sharp smooth prints
>
> Hurray for Slic3r and Marlin!


Well, I don't understand print mechanism in details but according the comparing Ultimaker can print at 40 microns. This is an order of magnitude less.

There is no magic in the ultimaker extruder, pretty much any well built reprap can be configured to print at similar layer height.
Because of the low moving mass, the ultimaker does have an advantage in terms of acceleration, and possibly maximum velocity.

Ultimaker has far greater stability and speed than any other printer out there. You can't even see the points where the layering join it is so precise, layer height can be lower, and jog speed can be over 300mm/s. I have had issues with retraction, and have had to design a special hobbled bolt to get it to feed correctly above 100mm/s on extrusion, but it is really a solid printer, and like my makerbots (which currently have been used for spare parts), I can take it from room to room, or on a trip if I need to. My Mendel and my prusa need to be retightened and realigned after all but the most careful of movements.

Mendel max? I'm sure it is a great machine, but it has the limitation of a heavy mass carriage. That limits its max speed. Is the community ready for bowden designs? I think not, it is a great deal more complicated to troubleshoot and more time consuming to get running properly. Once it is working ok, the stringiness is gone. If you use cura, the stringiness is eliminated even from small objects from comb feature. slic3r still needs some work with retraction for bowden cable designs.

The second supposed MendelMax print (of the silver figure) is actually mine! It was, as was stated earlier, done on a Prusa. My MendelMaxes produce prints that are an order of magnitude better. This chess piece, for example, was done at 50 microns:

[www.thingiverse.com]




This Admiral Akbar bust was done at 150 microns in the interests of time (It's 15cm tall):

[www.thingiverse.com]





Those prints were all done on an older MendelMax too, not my most recent one which I have going at 240mm/sec travel moves and the acceleration at 4000. No pictures of prints yet, since I'm still getting it dialed in. The Ultimaker is truly an amazing machine, but with quality parts and enough tweaking, a MendelMax can do the same.

fair enough....

I'm interested to build a Mendel max but my great doubt is on quality...I have to do a mass production of design object to sell..so I need best print resolution...where I can see macros photos of mendelmax prints? To evaluate the quality of external surfaces?

Another question on filament choose: is better a 1.75 or 3 mm diameter?
Thanks

Barrubba Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm interested to build a Mendel max but my great
> doubt is on quality...I have to do a mass
> production of design object to sell..so I need
> best print resolution...where I can see macros
> photos of mendelmax prints? To evaluate the
> quality of external surfaces?
>
> Another question on filament choose: is better a
> 1.75 or 3 mm diameter?
> Thanks

The first question you have to ask is, does any FDM printer have acceptable quality for your task?
The second is how much time are you willing to spend messing with a printer vs doing other things, to most on here this is a hobby, and we can spend countless hours messing with settings and calibration, I suspect you are expecting something plug and play and none of the hobbyist level printers are like that.
If you are going to do mass production, I'd suspect that it's probably more efficient to outsource to a printing service.

Wanted to add to this thread because it convinced me to waste my money on an Ultimaker.

First off, I have a Prusa Mendel, Replicator 2, and now and Ultimaker.

Of all three, the Ultimaker spends the most time in "down mode". It also, by far, has the most failed prints.

I'm constantly having to retighten the nuts. I've had to replace multiple parts with proper pieces. I was amazed at how little you get for ~$1500.

Another big problem with the ultimaker is durability of the prints. They're nice to look at but are not strong at all.

Sure, you can get some amazing prints out of the Ultimaker. WHEN IT WORKS. It takes a lot more setup and has a lot more failures.

The free software, Cura, is also complete crap compared to ReplicatorG or NetFabb.

NetFabb is awesome, but again, takes a LOT of setup. It also costs a lot and it seems to have been hacked to work with the Ultimaker.

All in all, the Ultimaker is not worth it. Not worth near the price or the headaches. Don't be dazzled by those "amazing" prints. I'd like to see the bin of failed prints to get that one nice one.

CaptainSkyhawk, not even a registered member? this seems like a marketing attack, which has been on the forum a lot more recently. seems like propaganda, from makerbot employees. and onto a forum a year old?


if you have issues update to the new v2 hot end, and/or make sure you are purchasing the real product. don't attack a product unless you have teeth to sink into it, such as being a registered user.

Normally I'd be neutral hear, but this is just the thing that needs to be pointed out.

to really put a home on this:

makerbot replicator 2 top issues: [groups.google.com] or just Google an you'll find someone feeling they got screwed.

They'd be the obvious ones:
1.) Unreliable extruder design (delrin plunger)
2.) Warped acrylic build plates (should have been glass)
3.) QA/QC issues with construction or packaging (loose bolts/screws, misaligned gantries, improperly installed parts, etc.)
4.) Support staff being completely overwhelmed, unable to respond in a reasonable time frame
5.) Beta (more like Alpha) software to go with the printer. People have to fall back to RepG, which doesn't appear to be MBI's intent.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2013 01:35PM by jamesdanielv.

CaptainSkyhawk Wrote:
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> The free software, Cura, is also complete crap
> compared to ReplicatorG or NetFabb.


This statement alone qualifies your IQ.

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no toys here...sorry