License for Kickstarter

I'm working on a Kickstarter campaign for my latest printer design and I wanted to run the bit about the licensing past the forum and see what objections people might have.

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License

Backers of this campaign will be granted early access to source files. The public release of source files will be after the printer kit exits beta. The license for source files will be a Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license and within 6 months will be changed to a Creative Commons BY-SA license. More information on these licenses can be found at creativecommons.org.
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The design is not a derivative of reprap designs so I'm thinking it is reasonable to delay the non-commercial release of the files for 6 months. I know there are a lot of hardcore opensource folks around here and I'm interested in discussing any objections and/or alternatives.

I have a preview link of the still evolving campaign here if you're interested. [www.kickstarter.com]

EDIT: The campaign is now live at:
[www.kickstarter.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2012 09:45PM by billyzelsnack.

The license only covers the copying and distribution of the source files. It doesn't stop people making and selling the machines. Unless you patent it you can't stop that.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

So anybody can take the source files for any BY-NC-SA project and use those files to create a commercial product? What's the point of the NC aspect if it does not mean anything in practice?

It means no one can sell the source files.

You cannot protect a physical design without a patent.

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Help improve the RepRap wiki! Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing. Anyone can edit the wiki!

There is a guy in Toronto with a shop on Spadina who sells a number of robotics related items produced from NC files downloaded from Thingiverse. I always thought that violated the licenses.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2012 04:11PM by Karl_Williams.

This link showed up in the mailing list yesterday and I pretty much agree with all of it..

[reprap.org]

I was thinking of removing the NC due to its mentioned lack of teeth, but now I'm inclined to just leave it as a statement of my intentions.

billyzelsnack Wrote:
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> This link showed up in the mailing list yesterday
> and I pretty much agree with all of it..
>
> [reprap.org]
> on-Commercial_Licences
>
> I was thinking of removing the NC due to its
> mentioned lack of teeth, but now I'm inclined to
> just leave it as a statement of my intentions.


That page talks about how the NC license helps development and how the truly open licenses cause people to abandon their work because of "copy shops". But if this was true we would have thousands of developers working on Gen7 and none on Prusa Mendels.

But the truth is everyone helps with the Prusa while Gen7 has ONE person working on it. How does this help the community and development in general?

The end result is an NC license means less people using them and almost no one improving them except for the unfortunate people who purchased one and have to fix the issues they find.

Further more if Adrian Bowyer had taken that same stance and licensed the RepRap project under a NC license NONE of us would be doing any of this.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2012 04:43PM by Sublime.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

CC is a subset of copyright and really only useful for artworks like writing, photos painting etc. It can not be used to protect things that are not covered by copyright, which mostly excludes engineering designs apart from some specific types.

Some people are not happy with the idea of CC licenses, and it is somewhat confusing for Thingiverse to have them as options. But I guess since there is no other type of licence that really applies to "things", it at least indicates a non-legal preference.

To me, where it becomes cloudy is when it comes to 3D objects like sculptures. Those can be protected by copyright. So, if one designs an STL file and prints the design on a 3D printer, it may be protected if you can argue in the courts that it's the same as a sculpture: A work of art. If you design and publish the STL file, but you never actually print it, then your copyright protection probably only applies to the file but not to the 3D prints.

> Some people are not happy with the idea of CC
> licenses, and it is somewhat confusing for
> Thingiverse to have them as options. But I guess
> since there is no other type of licence that
> really applies to "things", it at least indicates
> a non-legal preference.

The reason why I was looking at the CC license was because Thingiverse is where I want the source files to eventually end up.

Are you still going through with the Kickstarter campaign? The preview link is 404 now. It looks like a nice portable printer.

Yeah. I guess I broke the link. [www.kickstarter.com] It's not 100% finalized, but I have it in the queue for review so that I can make it go live when I'm ready. I have no idea how long that will take. I guess it depends on how happy they are with it not having a bunch of superfluous rewards. I REALLY don't want to print off a bunch of bottle openers or whatever. I'd rather focus on delivering kits.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2012 06:42PM by billyzelsnack.

The Kickstarter project sure sold out fast! Any chance that you would consider increasing the number of backers?

Nice idea. Are you making anything though at that price and with 5 motors, pulleys and belts?

What electronics are you using?

Karl_Williams. I have a link off the Kickstarter to signup for a kit beyond the initial batch.

gerards1111. The margin is about $100/kit. So not much if you consider the total effort involved, but it's worth it to me. The electronics in the prototype are Sanguinolulu. Initial kits will probably ship with it, but the rest will probably be my design.

I dont see how you can buy the electronics, materials, motors, belts pulleys, and misc for $200. Surely the electronics are near $100 if you allow for 4 pololu drivers. Even in bulk.

5 motors, pulleys and belts must cost at least $100. This doesnt allow for the machining and structural parts. Then you have taxes etc.

Are you making money on shipping?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2012 04:46PM by gerards1111.

Nope. Shipping is at cost. The only reason why it's possible is because of quantity pricing discounts which is what the Kickstarter campaign is all about.. Getting enough orders ahead of time so that I can buy in quantity.

Even in quantity you couldnt reduce the cost per component to make it profitable.

A motor would cost at its cheapest 8$. That $40. Probably bought in 1000s.
You would need 7 pulleys for your design, Thats maybe $25. Then belts. Another $25.

Electronics wouldnt come down that much. Pololu steppers still work out at minimum $8. Thats $32. The board and components would be about $60 in 500s. Are you soldering the ftdi?

The structure seems to be aluminium. Probably $20+. The machined parts would take maybe half an hour and cost $30.