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Wades vs direct drive extrusion

Posted by GITRDUN 
Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 20, 2012 04:38PM
I have a Makergear Prusa with their gearboxed direct drive drive extruder. After installing a small fan to blow on the extruder i have not had a single issue with the extruder, probably printed for 100 hours total with 0 problems since. I am building a second machine and would like some input as to whether or not the direct drive is a better extruder than the wades since i have only experience with one type. Or is the Wades styke at least as reliable? Whats the pros and cons?
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 20, 2012 05:55PM
I wanted direct drive to be better than Wades, but the results I've got with my Prusa are not. Direct drive happens to be more speed-limited and less reliable for me. However I still hope I will find a better design that might change this (I have not tried them all yet :-).

Maybe you guys have got a completely different experience. If so, don't forget to mention what extruder you use.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 21, 2012 03:33AM
Direct drive without a gearbox will probably never give consistent results (which I presume is what you are testing misan), GITRDUN is using a makergear plastruder which uses a gearbox Nema 17.

GITRDUN - I have both, a Plastruder and a Gregfrost Remix of Wade's and there is not much in it. I prefer the plastruder as it is slightly easier to use, such as the bolts are turned to prevent you from over-tightening the bearing, it's a nice touch. For the price I would go with Gregfrost's Wade and use a Hyena bolt as opposed to a hobbed bolt.

I believe Wade's provides more torque than the plastruder which is a pro, though the gear chain is a touch large for lightning fast printing.
The only thing I would suggest is make sure you print Wade's with ABS, my first one warped after not too long (MG hotend)
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 21, 2012 02:02PM
Thanks for the feedback. Whats a "Hyena" bolt?

I manage a CNC machine shop so i can make just about any part from scratch i need. I like the idea of using the Wades since i can print most of it out and make what i cant print. Id rather build my own than just buy off the shelf stuff as long as my self made parts are as reliable. My biggest concern with the Wades was that the stepper motor might not be able to turn fast enough to turn that big honkin drive gear fast enough for fast printing.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 21, 2012 02:34PM
It's someones rendition on a hobbed bolt so to speak, but with more grab.

"Hyena" Bolt
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 22, 2012 01:12PM
I have used both on the same machine. I started with a Wade's and it worked flawlessly. Never once jammed or missed steps. I've printed up to 100mm/s with no issues. I recently switched to a Plastruder (or a clone I made myself). I like it, it gives me a little bit more Z clearence and slightly better quality, but is definitely more touchy than the wades. I think its more of personal preference I guess. For someone just starting out, I think the Wades would be a little more robust.

Definitely print it in ABS. I experienced warping with a PLA wades I had originally.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 22, 2012 04:27PM
My PLA wades warped too. Had to bodge it to make an ABS one.

The biggest thing in making mine work well was the design of the toothed drive.

I guess an ideal drive would turn the tensioner wheel as well and have them both grip and push the filament.

The big gear does limit height on the Mendel quite a bit too. But it has been reliable.

Not tried a direct drive one yet.

Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 22, 2012 05:46PM
I have all but eliminated the warping on my PLA parts so far so i will first try printing in PLA. I have 0 experience with ABS and dont plan to even use it at all if i can help it. I never installed my heated bed, still sitting in the box.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 23, 2012 02:47PM
GITRDUN, the warping we are talking about is not during the actual print, it is through its use. Being that close to a 150+ degree heat source warps the extruder over time, probably not in every case but certainly in mine (makergear hot end with wooden mounting bracket).

Luckily you have a second printer so if it warps you can print it again perhaps out of ABS or try something new! Good luck
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 23, 2012 07:23PM
I'm running a gear driven extruder where the stepper is running a just over 3X more then a direct drive would turn.
12/39 then figure that my hobbed bolt is close to the same diameter as a direct drive.
So the stepper is running in a better speed range and has three times the torque. Also better resolution based on 200*16 steps per rev.
The only disadvantage of gear drive is size. So if your willing to pay for a geared stepper you can have the torque and reduced size, but at a cost.
I'm not following the relationship between warping and extruder design. The area where the filiment gets driven by the extruder is near room temperature. If the extruder is designed correctly the filiment is trapped at a decent force and pushed straight down. I havn't seen a more efficent and simple way to do it.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 23, 2012 10:52PM
Definitely, the warping I was talking about was because of the proximity to the hot end. Printing ABS at around 230 C, a few cm's above ithe hotend isn't going to be room temp. Just having my heated bed on, I can feel a difference in temp when holding my hand above the top of the entire printer. Heat rises and without proper ventilation can build up and soften the PLA. Like a few of us have mentioned, it's definitely does happen.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 24, 2012 05:44AM
OK. My design is 8 cm above the center of the hot zone and I'm running ABS at 255. The goal in any extruder design is to try to get the temperature down as much as possible just above the hot zone. You will add additional drag on the walls of the down tube, the extruder oozes and you have less control over the filiment.

It was very difficult to get ABS to stick to anything at 230. Extruding was fine but it wouldn't reliably stick. I tended to over compensate with more material, which caused part warping in the corners.

Extruder design is critical. Mine is all metal, other then the PTFE in the down tube, so I can go pretty high.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 24, 2012 07:14AM
The extruder design is critical, you are right but you are referring to the hot-end design, I assume GITRDUN will be using a makergear hot end or one of the other proven designs smiling smiley The melting zone in these hot-ends are focused at the tip but residual heat from the core will rise to the extruder, unless of course you have an 8cm long hot end !

GITRDUN: As Entropy says you can probably get away with using a fan pointed just above the hot zone.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 24, 2012 12:10PM
I designed my X carriage with a fan mount and nozzle pointing at the extruder. I learned that lesson the hard way. I installed a fan and nozzle on my Makergear extruder and have never had a single filament jam since. I plan to build a hot end from the files on the prusa wiki. I like the maker gear as its reliable as can be but i want to design and build as much of this as i can to eliminate buying replacement parts.

Thanks for the info fellas.
Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 24, 2012 10:24PM
i ran into this issue, and i had a interesting fix, i printed a universal greg's extruder thing:18619, and used a ptfe pice that i had, i just cut it to fit flush with the bottom, and no issues with it since. but i also had to add in a fan to help keep the bottom cool here is what i designed thing:21994

i would like to print abs, but i am a little wary about the fumes.

Re: Wades vs direct drive extrusion
May 25, 2012 01:49PM
I print with ABS almost exclusively, fumes have never been too much of an issue. I keep the room well ventilated though. You can rig up a fan with a charcoal filter if you are really worried.

The fumes vary greatly between ABS types/colors.
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