I am getting a sense that big business is moving in.

I watched that video. Overall I thought the presentation was decent, but a little off. I don't agree with her business model of digital customization and off-site fabrication. Consumers rarely, if ever delay gratification - this is why so many people on diets fail to lose weight. They will choose amongst the alternatives within a pricing band, making trade-offs based upon personal preference. The problem I see with her model is that consumer goods are typically normal goods, and the objects she presents are normal as well. The problem comes in the pricing - the cost of these customized fabricated objects pushes them into direct competition with superior goods, which is a nasty spot to be in for anyone. And lets face it - you aren't making something, you are simply playing in someone else's sandbox where the rules and options available for 'making' are limited. It is creativity-lite.

And she mentioned the elephant in the room - machines that make themselves. Anyone of reasonable intelligence in that audience knows at that point that the the emperor has no clothes. Her whole business model is that people are stupid and can't design things themselves. I'm fairly certain that the majority of people could be taught a basic CAD program. This is businesses Achilles heel - hoping/praying that this information is contained/controlled or obfuscated.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

oops, a miss read

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 10:39AM by anode505.

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> And she mentioned the elephant in the room -
> machines that make themselves. Anyone of
> reasonable intelligence in that audience knows at
> that point that the the emperor has no clothes.
> Her whole business model is that people are stupid
> and can't design things themselves. I'm fairly
> certain that the majority of people could be
> taught a basic CAD program. This is businesses
> Achilles heel - hoping/praying that this
> information is contained/controlled or obfuscated.

Exactly what I got from it. So damn many business wonks coming on the scene to do exactly as you have said. They will distort the issue and rape it as much as possible to keep the status quo.

As far as learning a CAD program I just downloaded every single one out there, well, at least the ones that had a trial, and I deleted them. They were horrible and maybe I think that because they were extremely hard to grasp and use. Now this is the stickler because if Cinema4D could do CAD I would be on Thingiverse right now but it can't do it. Now what I will tell you is that a scanner will help people and this technology because I will tell you right now I do not hold to intellectual property rights very much. If I see a sneaker, or a door knob, or my tail light (found out Ford no longer makes the darn thing so they told me to go to a junk yard) you bet I will scan it and release the file on the net. I only hope the ones in charge will not turn that into some sort of piracy issue and force people to go to torrents to get their file. I suspect they will because they want the ability to rip off people because that is what they do.

Now if some company could make a 3d CAD application with the ease of use of Cinema4D I know more would/could use it. I even used to use Maya before Autodesk ruined it but once they had it for a few versions I couldn't use it very well and things were 'odd' to me that made me leave Maya for good and go to Cinema4d for my 3d stuff.

Most people aren't artists which is what you are expecting when you say they can use a cad program and that is why they will 'buy' premade stls (or the like) from whichever source is least expensive and easiest to get from which leaves us exactly where we are today but with the cost shifting going towards the consumers instead of the businesses while the business are left raking it in with CEOs making (by then) billions per year.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 11:41AM by Dark Alchemist.

A good read (for those who haven't already seen it) is Michael Weinberg's paper "It Will Be Awesome if They Don't Screw it Up: 3D Printing, Intellectual Property, and the Fight Over the Next Great Disruptive Technology"

[www.publicknowledge.org]
[www.publicknowledge.org]


-Rob A>

Cinema4D doesn't have .stl export? Maybe make a request to have it added int the next release.

I'm not an artist and I make 3D items. I started about about two months ago. I realize 123D has its problems, but it's what I started with. After about a month of playing with the software I made this:



Not the most complex object ever but it suited my needs, and I have every confidence that average people can design objects to suit their needs using free software. Will it be beautiful? Probably not, but utility outweighs design for the vast number of man-made objects on the planet.

Don't you think branded .stl's will face competition from generic .stl creators? Ask the drug companies about competition from generic manufacturers. If the opportunity for profit is greater than the marginal cost of providing .stl's new entrants will enter the market to provide those files. They may have to sink significant capital to enter the market, but if the opportunity is available they will enter. Competition in this emerging market will be critical to adoption of the technology by a large portion of the populace. If the only providers of component .stl's are large corporations then this will be a serious problem. These large IP holders can make it unprofitable for entrants by keeping their prices low, closing the door to generic .stl creators. I think there will eventually be a healthy marketplace for these files with monopolistic players, generics, boutique and free providers of .stl's.

The world is flattening every day. This technology will flatten it even further.

I can see the day when you go to an IKEA-like store where you buy kits that contain non-printable hardware and the files necessary to print the bits you need to make the object. Not just that, but perhaps a variety of designs and features to choose from, maybe even editable files. Who knows what the future will hold.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Good reading and it made me mad with all of those laws to protect but in reality those laws are there to keep the money flowing in one direction. Things must change or else those laws will shut everyone down. Heck, just look on page one (was one for me) of Thingiverse with Yoda on it. BOOM, headshot, knee kick to the groin that is a violation and I am sure Lucas would shut it down. Why buy a Yoda figure at Wal-Mart when you can replicate one in your garage, or bedroom?

Yep, DMCA, Trademarks, Patents, and Copyrights will be the great undoer to this and send us all underground to use our filesharing programs to get our stls which means this will never go mainstream like we envisioned, or had hoped. The 3d graphic files will be charged heavily for due to licensing that company must pay and I lay odds a new format with set time limits will come to be so to stop it from being paid for once and given out numerous times.

@akhlut: Of course it does but what it doesn't have is the precise measurements a CAD application has. It isn't meant to be a CAD replacement only a 3d application like Maya, XSI, and/or 3dsmax.

As far as generic and branded stls I don't think stl will be the final file format as I think they will devise a locked down type of system so to control it via a timer. Rent the file to print once within 24 hours of rental type deal.

As far as walking into an IKEA like store if I am to make it spending my time, and money, plus materials the price MUST be cheaper than it is now. Fact is I am steadfast in this belief and why I REFUSE to purchase software that does not have a tangible disc associated with it. Charge me $49.99 to digital download something that used to be $49.99 with box, manual, and a physical disc? I refuse.

123D has measurement/adjustment < .00001 mm - good enough for non-engineers.

I agree about the physical media associated with software and other 'media'. It's nice to have something tangible in your hands. And I can't help but feel ripped off when I buy a book on the kindle (probably why I don't have too many books on it). The cost is less, but a huge part of the cost of producing/distributing the book is eliminated. Pass that savings on and I'll buy more books. But no. They keep that windfall. Hate that.

.stl is just an example. There will probably be another format in the future, but maybe not. RIAA couln't kill the .mp3.

The idea of a 24 hour rental is a real possibility.

I think you are absolutely correct - the price must be lower. I imagine it will be. I don't think someone will buy a 3D printable kit if the non-3D competitive product is significantly less or even the same price.


But I'm not so sure about copyright infringement. What is the likelihood of a big corporation coming after me for designing a part that I need? Especially if the costs of prosecution outweigh any chance of re-numeration? How many people were successfully prosecuted for sharing mp3's? A handful. Really kinda pitiful action on behalf of the RIAA. They went after the low-hanging fruit and moved on. They made an example out of a few to keep the rest in line. And that worked like a charm, didn't it.

I'm sure corporate America will come after this movement in force at some point. The only way I can see them stopping it is taking to creation tools out of the hands of the populace. Make creation software prohibitively expensive. Sabotage freeware to secretly track designs, or openly attack freeware. Alternatively, buy up all the tools - and destroy the ones that aren't for sale. I put nothing past them.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

"I'm sure corporate America will come after this movement in force at some point. The only way I can see them stopping it is taking to creation tools out of the hands of the populace. Make creation software prohibitively expensive. Sabotage freeware to secretly track designs, or openly attack freeware. Alternatively, buy up all the tools - and destroy the ones that aren't for sale. I put nothing past them."

Lets not put aside their biggest tactic so far and that has been buying off politicians so that they can get new laws in place to keep the status quo.

There is one thing very obvious right now is that the giant is starting to awaken and what to expect from it I can only imagine. Sort of akin to making the everlasting thread.

Exactly. Buying politicians is definitely a cheap fix, but that's always an option. Just about all of them are as corrupt as the day is long.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

When you first said that the Cube needed a passcode to function I didn't believed you... how could they make the same mistake again ? (hope there will be less and less people to fall in their arms)

In the long run I'm still optimist in the potential of our open-source movements (or like they said in "It will be awesome if...").
Not just about 3d-printing, but making things yourself and an open-society in general, even if we are not yet to a tipping point, each days I see more and more people who became ready for a change of paradigme (discovering Linux by example). And we are at the fore front to help them around some local manufacturing (like more people are trying to switch back to local food, etc.).
Open a makerspace, show them how we have fun in it, and they will not even think about buying a commercial toy.

Also, when you tell people the difference between the proprietary cartridge and the bare roll of PLA/ABS, they get it quickly (that's how I converted my school from stratasys to reprap and now they are spreading that among all the others schools/students/small companies they can reach).
By keeping people informed about that, I wish we could avoid the consumable-pricing strategy we see today on the 2D printers (just broke one this week-end, would like to have an open-source machine instead : / )

---

about // liberapay // flickr // wiki // thingiverse - github

Thank you because what you did with your school means more than you can imagine now if more schools will convert over even better because it is the now as well as the future (the mindset changes of the students).

I will say in 1998 I was bleeding edge using my RedHat distro of Linux then I went to Fedora Core then to Ubuntu but I haven't touched Linux in 3 years but I do watch it closely to see what people are doing. Good, people are converting over to it and more use it now than they did in 1998 but too much diversification is also a bad thing and I see so many distros out there.

What hurt Linux? DirectX did with Microsoft telling the gaming companies that if they released anything with OGL they would forever more be banned from Microsoft and that is certain death. I hate Microsoft to this day for doing those sorts of back room shenanigans but they did and it has worked in keeping the masses placid with Windows. These are the sort of tactics the big businesses will do to stop us and it will work.

Beware the Satan for he gives you many pleasures and makes you think everything is wonderful but when it is all said and done you are still in Hades. Big corporate businesses would be the Satan and the Hades is the status quo of always needing to go back to the man for whatever because when you go back they know they have you (like a drug dealer) and the status quo remains.

The pass code to operate it may be a safety thing to stop children messing with it.

When you sell complete machines in the EU there are all sorts of regulations you need to comply with. EMC, safety, ROSH, WEEE.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I know a fablab here where it's the children who teach adults how to use the reprap

Yes and I prefer natural selection to take it course rather than safety regulations doing the opposite.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Quote
Dark Alchemist
what exactly is it that you said?

I said the options to get a reasonable priced printer with low priced consumables is there, people just have to take it. But many don't regardless.

Quote
Dark Alchemist
Change the world? I think not because you will not be allowed to change it

Who would stop me? RepRap already has taken over the (3D printing) world: [reprap.org]

Quote
VDX
... some hints for strengthening the DIY-position and hinder the 'big money' to overtake
- avoid any standardisation!
- focus on DIY! - even the filament or fabbing material should be DIY-able ...
- spread the word and the designs as far as you can ...
- force the diversification of software - ye more different versions, the better ...
- be faster in development of new options/enhancements than the market
- ... and so on ...

I agree with you, except for two things:

- Moderate standardisation would be welcome, as it enhances the interoperability of different developments.

- Diversification isn't a bonus on it's own. You're right as far as: there's no need to fear diversification if it brings in enhancements. And no, this is no contradiciton to my wish for moderate standardisation.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Quote
Traumflug
I said the options to get a reasonable priced printer with low priced consumables is there, people just have to take it. But many don't regardless.

What you consider reasonable someone else might not. For instance I do not consider 500-750 dollars reasonable.

Quote
nophead
Yes and I prefer natural selection to take it course rather than safety regulations doing the opposite.

I am with you about this but the EU is daddy and mommy so their laws are their laws but this passcode has nothing to do with safety for children because you only need to enter the passcode once (so the man said) unless the battery backedup memory fails (leaving it unplugged for too long, etc...) then you must reenter it. That doesn't sound like protection to me it sounds more like control and keeping tabs on you. Trully, it is for control just like their overly priced files that you can print.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 08:18AM by Dark Alchemist.

The passcode is I assume to allow access to their proprietary website, it's a product registration.
AFAICS they make no effort to stop you from downloading and using STL files from anywhere else, there FAQ even states that you can use any STL files.
My only real problem with it is the proprietary cartridge for plastic.
Honestly other than the fact the price is half decent, I don't see the difference between the cube and every other commercial 3D printer.

I actually applaud any attempt to try and broaden the appeal of 3D printers, the idea itself is so compelling, and having a working printer is a very cool thing, but right now the barrier to entry is very steep, I have technically competent friends who I'm pretty sure don't have the patience to build or buy then go through the debugging process to get high quality prints.

I do believe we are starting to see some movement in the market towards mainstream, whether it be Cube/Up/Makerbot/whichever kickstarter project is todays flavor of the month, I don't see them diluting this community, and if they use that money to build a better mousetrap, any real inovation it would be adopted back here anyway.

The one big obstacle when "big business" does come is going to be IP rights, AFICS with my limited understanding of IP law, trademarks will prevent you downloading an STL file of MickeyMouse, Copyright would protect you uploading an STL you made of pretty much anything that isn't trademarked, and Patents require physical manifestation to infringe and only really hurt you if you try and sell the result.
That likely would change if 3D printing had any real uptake, but the only way to fight legal changes would be an upswell of public opinion which would mean it would have to affect a lot of people i.e. there would have to be a lot of 3D printers in the wild.
People will absolutely try and charge money for STL files (or whatever we're using then) if there are enough printers out there to make it make sense. And why shouldn't they? It takes time and effort to build good content, plenty of people will continue to give their work away.

I see any passcodes as a very bad thing YMMV.

As far as the IP law as it stands now Thingiverse is in direct violation on a bunch of counts and should be taken down due to the law (I can see that happening soonish) or at least policed by the admin/moderators/whatever.

As far as people charging for stl files or whatever the format will be think goodness for filesharing networks but all of this is academic as the real threat is proprietary systems littering the market and the DMCA or its ilk.

Thingiverse probably has a few trademark infringing items (like Yoda), but it isn't the bulk of the content and practically all they'd have to demonstrate is good will in pulling them down in response to complaints.

So you don't believe that anyone should be compensated for any work that can be file shared?
What about making money off physical goods, the printers themselves or the plastic?

What's the difference?

If you don't believe people creating the content should be rewarded, you'll end up with less high quality content.
The unfortunate truth is the vast majority of people will not build compelling content, so you ideally want some way to encourage the people that do to continue to do so.

That is the status quo you are talking about and not one I believe in. If we are ever to bring humanity to the next level it must start with not needing money. Just like that Star-Trek episode portrayed the 24th century and while it was SCI-FI it is something we should be striving for because when money (or a monetary system) is non existent can man know well being. I firmly believe in this principle and if we can remove the driving force of money from people only then can change truly happen.

So, no I believe people should make stuff because there is an inner driving force to do so not because someone is looking to make a buck and I can say this with some software work I did for 5 years (well over 3k hours of labor btw) just giving it away for free. It was not related to 3d but the principle is the same.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 01:53PM by Dark Alchemist.

I'm really not going to get into the philosophical here, but the STTNG no money thing is predicated on the fact that there is never a case where there is less supply than demand. While in their Universe this is clearly true of material good, it's never Universally true because people perceive value outside of material goods, a signed copy of a book has no more material value than an unsigned copy, but it has more perceived value. As another example if I were married my wedding ring would have more value that just the gold it was made of.

There is a second fallacy, that people do what they want and that doesn't detract from quality.
I've been lucky enough to do a job that I enjoy most of the time, I've said for years I'd do most of it whether or not I was paid for it, however if I wasn't paid for it I doubt you'd get the same quality product out of the end of the chain, you'd get good enough for my purposes and if you want more deal with it because shipping a product of high quality to a lot of people is an extremely painful experience, and while I enjoy the problem solving aspect I have no interest in the grunt work it takes to actually ship finished product.
The assumption that because I enjoy doing something in a field everything in that field is in someway it's own reward is just crap, if it takes someone significant time to build a 3D model, and no-one is who happens to be good at modeling finds building that model interesting why do they build it?

I do give software away, but I feel no compunction to support or update it.

As soon as the supply is limited in any way you degenerate back into some form of monetary system even if it's barter, "I'll write you that video game if you write me that book I wanted to read", barter becomes promissory notes and then your back to money. In and of itself money isn't evil.

Then we disagree on all points as I not only did the best I could when giving away software I wrote I actually upkept it and revised it as necessary only because it is what I liked to do at the time I was doing it. Lots of grunt work and engineering that kept me up some nights so I didn't get any sleep for the next day. Anyway we agree to disagree and not agreeing is not a bad thing.