I watched a video about a Cube 3d Printer and when I heard you had to input a passcode to get it to work (grab it off the website) I had huge flashbacks to the DIVX format circa 2000. We all know what happened to that format and to the people who bought into it (I never trusted it so stuck with DVD myself) and if not wiki DIVX (not the video format we have now but the DVD competitior).

So, let me copy and paste our conversation and you tell me as I get mad when big business tries to stomp on the open source community.

Me - No offense to you because I loved the video but that is too much control when you have to enter an id number before it will run. Part of the 3d printing movement is to get away from any single point of control.

Video author - I understand your reaction to hearing that you must register the ID of your printer. I'm not crazy about the idea either. But, I also understand WHY they made this decision.

It's up to each buyer to decide. But, frankly, given the quality of this product, having to register it is a VERY small annoyance.

Me - Wonder what would happen if they went belly up tomorrow? [this was me trying to feel this guy out with the DIVX in mind.]

Video author - Nothing. The Cube is so nicely designed that it would be picked up by someone else.

Can you imagine where we would be with laser printer technology had that been dominated by an open source mentality? At some point, for products to fully mature, it takes proprietary design and manufacturing capability. There is a REASON why HP manufactures Laser Printers and not some California collective.

-------------
California collective? He is insinuating this movement is just some sort of hippie movement and he is using that connection in a bad way. So I sent him a message back (all of this is on Youtube to read in his comments section on Youtube).

Me - Yes? Then look no farther than the Divx competitor to DVD circa 2000. It was owned and ran by one company and it failed. The discs (movies) had to have your player login with a code so when they went bankrupt the govt forced them to give a universal passcode so people didn't have a boat weight. Had that have been in a collective's open source hands there would never have been a single source.

Making money is not what this technology is about it is more than that an entire paradigm shift.

--------
Now, someone might say this is just one old man's point of view but honestly it isn't. I have ran into this so much when talking about open source/open hardware and I only hope/think they know their time of control and mad profiteering are just beginning to enter the dusk years. At least I hope so but I do get fired up over the subject.

Video [www.youtube.com]

I understand your concern, but my feeling is that a manufactured product is not needed within the 3D community which we call RepRap.
Most of the audience on this forum is quite capable of working with sets or find their way to a 'space' to be helped or help with building.

The manufacturers/designers which buy off-the-shelf products are perhaps different crowd, compared to us, though in the same realm.
They know this as well, and are aware of the risk.

Compliments on your view, it is something we should be aware of. But on the other hand this is a part of business/development.
As I see it, the best design/marketing/product will survive. There are a lot of comparisons which can be made with other products and brands. It is all well, live as we know it.

The point is I know at least the common American (the type who does their main job, comes home and opens a beer and watches the tube until bedtime) and they will not attempt this. What they want is to buy off the shelf because it is easy while I am not opposed to that myself I can see them dumping them at below cost to protect the status-qou by killing the open source/open hardware market. Once killed they can remove the product or raise the price (like Wal-Mart does). Big business knows full well what 3d printers will do to the industry. The entire world and how we think. It would be like suddenly making a Star Trek Replicator in the real world. The powers that be would use everything in their power to kill it and I sense this is going to start, has started, against this.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 02:47PM by Dark Alchemist.

I agree with "edjuh" ::-

The basic design is open to all to copy, and it is very much an exercise in collecting
the various pieces, to make a machine that is uniquely your own.

The contributions of those shareing their experiences is important to the process of
building the ultimate machine.

Dark

Yes, I agree on that 'it' has started. But what can one do against it ?
The reprap community is here, and could try to fight it but how ?
I do not feel as if I want to be a manufacturer

edjuh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark
>
> Yes, I agree on that 'it' has started. But what
> can one do against it ?
> The reprap community is here, and could try to
> fight it but how ?
> I do not feel as if I want to be a manufacturer

I wish I knew. Seriously.

The thing is that they have the money to make things happen to destroy this wonderful idea. Eventually the world will change and become a Star-Trek type universe where, in the 24th century in Picard's time, money means absolutely nothing on earth. People do what they do because they have a drive to do it not because they need money (was in season one of TNG where they talked about this and while Sci-Fi it will become reality) but for now the wheels of change have begun to spin. From alternative energy taking away the money of big business to the 3D printer movement it is a drive to allow the common person to no longer need a manufacturer and their distribution chain where each link in that chain jacks the price up until it hits the retail level where they jack it up at least 400% for most items.

Now, I need a 3157 3rd brake light bulb holder for a 1998 Ford Taurus because mine broke last night (age, and heat). I can't find it and on Monday I will call Ford to see how much they are going to gouge me for but if I had a 3d scanner with say a Prusa I would be done in less than an hour with it back on my car. Look at all of the people that were eliminated in that process and most fun is eliminating China out of the equation.

How can we fight it? Well, we can't on the same level of big mega corporations but what we can do is go to the schools and show it being used. Get more coverage of the items so people become aware of them and get the cost down to a Wal-Mart price (used to be called the Kmart price) and once that is done you, me, we have a chance against the suits.

It will not be easy because, in effect, you are remove wealth from the wealthy and wealth of the magnitude they have brings a lot of power and they are not willing to lose either without huge fights.

The printer looks a lot like an UP printer with covers, which in turn is probably based on open source efforts, I agree
with Dark Alchemist, some companies will always want to control the technology, but there will always be some brave
hackers to defeat their attempts eventually.
Its interesting to see the two schools of thought, the dinosours who want to control, and those who adopt a more open syle,
Wonder which will stand the test of time?.

---

Random Precision

I think you have it backwards... The rapid prototyping field has been completely dominated by the corporations and their proprietary products up until the relatively recent proliferation of the open source projects. It's not the big business that's moving in, the open source side is.

The big businesses are not likely to get rid of the open projects with any more success than they have had with getting rid of Linux on the OS side, but if they try, any serious attacks are going to come on the intellectual property (copyrights, patents, DMCA, etc) front, not commercial competition with hobbyist projects.

ttsalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you have it backwards... The rapid
> prototyping field has been completely dominated by
> the corporations and their proprietary products up
> until the relatively recent proliferation of the
> open source projects. It's not the big business
> that's moving in, the open source side is.
>
> The big businesses are not likely to get rid of
> the open projects with any more success than they
> have had with getting rid of Linux on the OS side,
> but if they try, any serious attacks are going to
> come on the intellectual property (copyrights,
> patents, DMCA, etc) front, not commercial
> competition with hobbyist projects.


I have to disagree because if you look Linux has been out for eons now (I was using in 16 years ago) and it did not take off and stomp Windows which broke my heart. Same thing the coporate thugs in the manufactury business will end up doing in some form or fashion.

"I think you have it backwards... The rapid prototyping field has been completely dominated by the corporations and their proprietary products up until the relatively recent proliferation of the open source projects. It's not the big business that's moving in, the open source side is. " This part agrees with me but the semantics are a little different. Big corporate thugs are moving in to protect what has been theirs for so long. If the 3d Printers movement catches on like wildfire how long until their businesses have to close down? If we affect 10% of their business chain their business will feel it and might be enough to shut them down. That is what I meant by moving in they are in fear of this movement as Bill Gates was 10 years ago with Linux but look we don't have everyone on Linux because he did things behind the scenes you might not know about (I worked in the business back then and know all too well having been a Senior Technical Support Systems Admin at the time). There are things that happen behind the scenes that can stiffle any new technology.


I have investigated and watched the videos on the Cube a lot more today and the more I watched the more I know they are evil. Heck, sorta funny this, but I was watching one video and the people were responding that the person wouldn't answer any questions and seemed 'creepy' and a corporate type. BINGO, that is exactly what that thing is.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 09:32PM by Dark Alchemist.

Doesn't open source hardware and software sour the well? I think the only opportunity for profit is in this space is information control and marketing. Betamax was a better product, but VHS won in the end. But since the information is free to all aren't the companies who decide to put out a 3D printer at this stage in the game taking a huge risk? Especially if they put out a crappy machine. The points about corporations being evil are valid. I think that they would do just about anything to quash this movement toward desktop manufacturing, and sabotage is a tactic to look out for to be sure.

But isn't the horse already out of the gate? I think consumers are savvy, especially when it comes to paying a significant amount of money for what some would call a "toy". Even if something like the Cube or UP! does become a commercial success what impact will it have here? I do worry that a ham-handed approach to marketing 3D printing and "over-promising" could set the entire movement back, but I'm not too worried about that.

The flipside to desktop manufacture may be that an increasing number of parts become available for printing. How about downloading a .stl of that 3157 3rd brake light bulb holder for $5? Why not? Any company that doesn't see this potential are FOOLS. Distributed manufacture to order with low/no overhead and no variable costs? That sounds orgasmic to just about any capitalist. I think manufacturers would love to become intellectual property farmers. How many parts to a car do you think you could print on your machine? Parts to a home appliance? Can anyone say lost remote control battery cover? How much would you be willing to pay? Conversely how much overhead would any manufacturer save by not having to stock these items? It will change the game allright - for companies that choose to leverage this technology/movement.

Also, why can't the reprap foundation become an alternative manufacturer? Why can't anyone with a reprap sign up to print out parts to order that come into the foundation? Harness this distributed manufacturing community to challenge the corporations. Adopt a *AHEM* standard model and promote it? I realize this would piss off quite a large segment of the reprap community, but why can't reprap be the next raspberry pi? Seriously.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

"How about downloading a .stl of that 3157 3rd brake light bulb holder for $5? Why not?"

Piracy. If someone saw that at 5 dollars I know they would hit the torrent sites for that exact STL because that is just gouging (considering they are using their own filiments, electricity, wear and tear) and once something is out there in the software world (hardware is different) it can't be controlled especially something like a STL.

I don't know this UP printer people keep talking about so does it require a centralized personal passcode to get it to work like the cube?

Really we are striving to get away from a centralized point of distribution which a passcode goes right back to (why in the heck is there a need for a passcode to make a piece of hardware you purchased work besides a form of control?).

I don't know about the UP! printer's software. The cube seems particularly onerous - I'm not sure you could import .stl's that weren't created with the proprietary software.

Would you buy a printer that you have to log into every time you want to use it? I wouldn't. I don't think savvy shoppers would either. That cube looks like a completely proprietary device and you are locked into that ecosystem. To make it worse, 3D systems is already selling .stl's. And their prices are insane, literally INSANE.

Gouging? Really? $5 for a part that may take several hours for someone to design. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to sit around designing something for who knows how long to save a pittance when the manufacturer's .stl is available for a reasonable price. The wear/tear on your machine, the energy required to run it and the media to produce such a part is a miniscule amount compared to buying a production component via standard channels.

But why not just buy the part that is known good vs a free one that may work? By then there may be some sort of DRM associated with certain .stl's, especially copyrighted objects. Maybe you have 24 hrs to print, test and reprint? Who knows what business model will be put in place, but one eventually will be.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

I agree something will come and the 3d printer business is never going to 100% take over but I can see it doing 50-70%. [edit: I mean the plastic ejecting type whereas that powder + laser type has a lot more promise but still too costly]

5 dollars is a tad much when (lets look at this from a typical consumers viewpoint and we must look at this viewpoint to see why this will or will not take off) I can go on Ebay and buy one for $2.99 delievered free from China there is another that is made for Ford from America and delivered is $11.00

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2012 12:41AM by Dark Alchemist.

*Disclaimer* I'm not taking about the big boys in the market - the z-corps, etc. Rather the Cube and its ilk.

I agree with you that the technology will be widely commercialized - reprap is open to being copied freely by commercial interests. But it is this community that continues to push against the boundaries of what is possible with this technology. They are driving innovation in this field, the commercial interests are just starting to catch up.

But in the end will they? I don't know. There is so much cross-pollination that occurs here that it would be difficult or impossible for commercial interests to match it given R&D budgetary constraints. They are more likely to steal from this community rather than innovate separately. Look at the Azteeg x3 thread. This fella has integrated an arduino mega with ramps 1.4. Pretty sweet. I'm willing to bet that the 3DS cube has the same damn thing for the electronics package. But we'll never know unless someone does a tear-down on it. In the end the larger commercial interests are a parasite on the reprap community.

> 5 dollars is a tad much when (lets look at this
> from a typical consumers viewpoint and we must
> look at this viewpoint to see why this will or
> will not take off) I can go on Ebay and buy one
> for $2.99 delievered free from China there is
> another that is made for Ford from America and
> delivered is $11.00

I don't know the price of the component - $5 was an example of a trivial amount of money. I think the biggest savings in the distributed manufacturing model is the time and energy saved. The vast majority of the $11 cost in the Ford part is energy. Energy to produce the material, energy to form it, energy to transport it (repeatedly), energy to store it. So the $3 part from China probably rolled off the same line as the Ford part, but the shipping (if free) will take how long? I can't see it being overnight or 3-day. Maybe a week if you're lucky and then it may have to go through customs. So even in that example would $5 be worth it? How soon do you want it? Will it save you from getting a ticket from the man? So let's say the running cost of your machine wound up being $5 to produce the part, putting you at $10 overall. How much time did you save? How much energy did you save? Didn't have to waste time looking for the part or waiting for the part to come in. Didn't have to drive out to get it and bring it back (time/money).

What I'm saying is that the opportunity costs in several key dimensions are favorable toward printing the part yourself, even considering the sunk costs involved. What will be critical for the success of the distributed manufacturing model is proper pricing and management of intellectual property.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

I agree with everything you just said. I lay odds that Cube is a rip off with proprietary front end sitting on an Arduino I lay odds.

The $2.99 is free shipping 3 weeks (comes from Hong Kong directly) and the American one (California) is 3 days. So, I know what you are driving at but the success of Wal-Mart was the loest price not the quality of goods, or in our case Joe/Jane Six-Pack and how long it takes to get here. $11.99 for 3 day delivered service is fine so the cost of an STL needs to be priced appropiately. I say the comfort point is 10 cents to $1.99 with < $1.00 be the main sellers but if someone is selling something we are again looking at a strangle point in the purest sense of the word.

Now if we could get the 3d scanners down to 300 dollars instead of 3k then optionals to make it better another 3k THAT is when the 3d printer market will take hold but not really before. I mean I can dabble something together in Cinema4D but I looked at every CAD/CAM package out currently and regardless of its price I hated it and couldn't manage to make diddly. Jane/Joe Six-Pack isn't going to have the 3d skills to design anything and if they have to buy stls they will for special occasions but not until they can zoom around their homes with a scanner and 5 mins later the part is ready to be made will this really be an honest threat to the big businesses. I suspect the strangle hold they will do to us will be to keep that scanner expensive JUST like Hollywood has for the last 4+ years for Blu-Ray burners and blank media for the PC. Not that it was very costly to make just they said to or risk fines due to licensing. True, we don't have a licensing type system like that but there is still a major need to simplify for the average user. Remove that ability, or stall it as has been the case with Blu-Ray, and you may cripple something as wonderful as the 3d printer technology.

Why does this thread stink of QU-BD?

WildBill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this thread stink of QU-BD?


What the heck does that mean?

> I suspect the strangle hold they will do to us
> will be to keep that scanner expensive JUST like
> Hollywood has for the last 4+ years for Blu-Ray
> burners and blank media for the PC.

Who is "they"?

My opinion is the opposite. I suspect that every new mobile phone will have decent 3d scanning capabilities within the next 2 years.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WildBill Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why does this thread stink of QU-BD?
>
>
> What the heck does that mean?

For some reason, WildBill has an irrational dislike of QU-BD. AFAIK, QU-BD are just a few guys trying to do a start up, and not Big Corp, so I don't know where WIldBill is coming from, envy perhaps.

ttsalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you have it backwards... The rapid
> prototyping field has been completely dominated by
> the corporations and their proprietary products up
> until the relatively recent proliferation of the
> open source projects. It's not the big business
> that's moving in, the open source side is.

Exactly, Big Business invented 3D printing, they have never been "out". Reprap copied the idea and added the concept of "self replication". Big Business have been interested in self-replication, so can't be said to be moving into Reprap territory.

Also, people perenially misunderstand the difference between free (speech) and free (beer). If companies overcharge (they probably don't, most people have absolutely no clue of the costs involved), then it is up to consumers to choose who to do business with. That has absolotely nothing to do with Open Source. There is nothing in Open Source license that says "if you do sell products based on this, it must be for a price barely above your cost price, because people want cheap stuff". You can't "rip off" an Open Source design. The Open Source licence operates in the realm of ideas, not money.

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WildBill Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why does this thread stink of QU-BD?
> >
> >
> > What the heck does that mean?
>
> For some reason, WildBill has an irrational
> dislike of QU-BD. AFAIK, QU-BD are just a few guys
> trying to do a start up, and not Big Corp, so I
> don't know where WIldBill is coming from, envy
> perhaps.

No idea who he is nor what he was talking about.

billyzelsnack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I suspect the strangle hold they will do to us
> > will be to keep that scanner expensive JUST
> like
> > Hollywood has for the last 4+ years for Blu-Ray
> > burners and blank media for the PC.
>
> Who is "they"?
>
> My opinion is the opposite. I suspect that every
> new mobile phone will have decent 3d scanning
> capabilities within the next 2 years.

They, as in the suits big businesses and the international "suits" who only wish to control and dish out what they wish as they have never been, nor will they ever be, for the free flow of anything unless that free flow will line their pockets and if not squash it at all costs.

edit: As far as the 3d scanner ability maybe (I don't do cell phones as that is just another anchor and point of control) but it will not have the abilities we need with million point resolution that can be stuck into a stl file.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2012 08:02AM by Dark Alchemist.

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ttsalo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think you have it backwards... The rapid
> > prototyping field has been completely dominated
> by
> > the corporations and their proprietary products
> up
> > until the relatively recent proliferation of
> the
> > open source projects. It's not the big business
> > that's moving in, the open source side is.
>
> Exactly, Big Business invented 3D printing, they
> have never been "out". Reprap copied the idea and
> added the concept of "self replication". Big
> Business have been interested in self-replication,
> so can't be said to be moving into Reprap
> territory.
>
> Also, people perenially misunderstand the
> difference between free (speech) and free (beer).
> If companies overcharge (they probably don't, most
> people have absolutely no clue of the costs
> involved), then it is up to consumers to choose
> who to do business with. That has absolotely
> nothing to do with Open Source. There is nothing
> in Open Source license that says "if you do sell
> products based on this, it must be for a price
> barely above your cost price, because people want
> cheap stuff". You can't "rip off" an Open Source
> design. The Open Source licence operates in the
> realm of ideas, not money.

Oh, I understand more than you think and I know most people in the chain make very litte until it hits the retail store with their 400% to 1500% markups. Sure, there are cost leaders to get you in but on average most products have a hellish markup.

As far as pricing goes in the beginning prices are low (so low they could be considered dumping) just to win people over then when none are left they jack it all up because you have no place to go (Wal-Mart has done this in many communities and why inner store customer price matching is not allowed).

You can rip off Open Source in so much as using the free ideas against itself. Think of it as the anti-replication procedure where you know the bees will come to the flower and to kill the bees you poison the flower.

> edit: As far as the 3d scanner ability maybe (I
> don't do cell phones as that is just another
> anchor and point of control) but it will not have
> the abilities we need with million point
> resolution that can be stuck into a stl file.

Leap 3D motion control system is 100 times more accurate than Kinect, will cost $69.99
[www.theverge.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2012 12:41PM by billyzelsnack.

billyzelsnack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > edit: As far as the 3d scanner ability maybe (I
> > don't do cell phones as that is just another
> > anchor and point of control) but it will not
> have
> > the abilities we need with million point
> > resolution that can be stuck into a stl file.
>
> Leap 3D motion control system is 100 times more
> accurate than Kinect, will cost $69.99
> [www.theverge.com]-
> motion-control-system-video

No Linux Great news if it can be hacked into a 3d printer scanner.

The real money will happen and pull in "big business" to the consumer market once the 3d printers with proprietary print cartridges/material take off. The "give the printer away for free, give the designs away for free, but we'll gouge you on the consumables" strategy. Worked for disposable razors. Worked for inkjet printers. I'm sure it will work for 3d printers, too.

There are already companies selling printers designed around proprietary feedstock (cartridges or indexed rods) that will probably succeed, as this tends to make it a more consumer friendly experience.

-Rob A>

Quote
Dark Alchemist
Oh, I understand more than you think and I know most people in the chain make very litte until it hits the retail store with their 400% to 1500% markups.

In the RepRap world you can easily buy from developers and/or manufacturers directly and at low prices, but guess what: people are rarely interested in this. They prefer shops without developer and without support ten times over developers just providing an email address. They prefer those putting together a kit without having a clue over those specialized in their specific part of the printer.

So, no reason to complain. People want it his way.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, I understand more than you think and I know
> most people in the chain make very litte until it
> hits the retail store with their 400% to 1500%
> markups.
>
> In the RepRap world you can easily buy from
> developers and/or manufacturers directly and at
> low prices, but guess what: people are rarely
> interested in this. They prefer shops without
> developer and without support ten times over
> developers just providing an email address. They
> prefer those putting together a kit without having
> a clue over those specialized in their specific
> part of the printer.
>
> So, no reason to complain. People want it his way.

It's early here so I am not coherent yet but what exactly is it that you said? I agree with RobA and this is why I no longer have a 2d printer because when a 2d printer costs less than buy the ink refills something is seriously wrong but consumers, as stupid as they are, aimlessly gravitate towards that style of marketing. It fills our landfills and fills their pockets and I am sure this will come for the 3d printers as well.

All of this community will just be a tick on the big dog business and everything we are working for will not change a thing because, inherently, consumers are dumb and big businesses will take advantage of that.

Change the world? I think not because you will not be allowed to change it even if that permission is due to your neighbours being sheeple.

... some hints for strengthening the DIY-position and hinder the 'big money' to overtake
- avoid any standardisation!
- focus on DIY! - even the filament or fabbing material should be DIY-able ...
- spread the word and the designs as far as you can ...
- force the diversification of software - ye more different versions, the better ...
- be faster in development of new options/enhancements than the market
- ... and so on ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Well, I was just watching another video about all of this (RepRap was passingly mentioned) and the technology has a purpose but I already see the control creeping in. Do you have Hoover that is no longer made and need a part for it? Well, download a file and get your 3d printer to working. This seems to be the big thing and what people are not understanding is that the 3d file to allow this will be controlled and will cost you (probably more than the part does now). It is cost shifting (yet again) from businesses to now the consumer. They will still make as much as they do now but need less people employed.

I don't mind the jobs disappearing but only if some jerk off business CEO isn't making their company just as much, if not more, money using this technology while letting those people go. I want a complete paradigm shift not not just a new fancy way for corporations to make more money due to less infrastructure needed and slamming the burden over to consumers.

Want those nice Nike shoes? Well, no need for that child labor in China (a very good thing) but we will charge you 75-150 dollars US for the file that will allow you to spend your money on electricity, materials, and wear and tear to make them. Oh, we at Nike get to save on labour, shipping costs, the works thanks to the sheeple consumers who will love being able to make their own shoes not realizing you just fed the corporate giant. Sad, but this is where I see it going not in the direction RepRap would like for it to go.

Anyway here is a video I was just watching: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 09:12AM by Dark Alchemist.