Looking for some software.

I have seen a dual head machine on Youtube (CNC and Hot End) where the hot end was done and the CNC took up afterward. Very novel approach so I figure I will ask this in here because I got nowhere with the CNC crowd.

What takes the place of Mach3 that will do CNC, and 3d printing? The author of Mach3 retired about 3 years ago and it hasn't kept up with technology. I want a piece of software that works on a 64 bit Windows machine as well as not demanding a printer port (I have one but all new machines I looked at (for when I upgrade) no longer came with one). Honestly, when was the last time you saw an IEEE-1284 cable hooked up (or even a place for one) on an ink jet printer?

Anyone know of a replacement?

Mach3 is still widely used, if you need to run on 64bit then you need a Smoothstepper or other motion controller, get the Ethernet version, USB is prone to noise problems.
I believe there are several fairly expensive options that include software and hardware motion controllers, flashcut leaps to mind.
Emc2 is still used, but it's linux only i haven't run a version in a couple of years and I don't know what controllers it supports that wouldn't require a parallel port.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2012 11:02PM by Polygonhell.

Well, I asked the CNC guys and the best those archaic people could come back with is to buy an old pc. You know that is just a wrong attitude but it is very prevalent. Eventually your old PCs will die then what? I can see old PCs becoming a commodity, lol.

I wish to stay on Windows and ethernet is an option but there has to be something out there that will work that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I mean I saw an Arduino doing CNC and there was no printer port being used but that would be my last option.

It's still relatively easy to buy a crappy computer with a parallel port I use an intel atom based computer running WinXP to drive my mill via the parallel port, you can also just buy a parallel port card and plug it into a PCIE slot.
I have a Smoothstepper I keep meaning to install on the mill because I need a couple of extra inputs.
The Win64 bit issue with parallel port control is unlikely to ever be fixed, Win64 won't load unsigned drivers outside of debug mode.
There is an arduino based solution, but when I last looked at it it was missing features I woldn't run a mill without.

That is why the Arduino is my last choice but I only wish to run on Windows 64 bit. I can on an additive but I can't on a subtractive machine? Rather odd.

First day I got Windows 7 (when it was about 2 months old) I [www.killertechtips.com] Did that and never looked back. First thing I did in Vista was that as well (or basically that as I don't do their controls). Disable UAC too.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2012 11:18PM by Dark Alchemist.

Polygonhell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is an arduino based solution, but when I
> last looked at it it was missing features I
> woldn't run a mill without.

What features are missing? A lot of people seem to run grbl [dank.bengler.no] quite happily.

There seems to be a big gulf between the CNC and RepRap communities, which is odd because once you have the GCode the functions and technologies used are very similar. I can't see why the same tools cannot be used for both purposes, perhaps it is NIH syndrome.

If there are CNC features to add to microcontroller based solutions, they can be added. I think that would be better than dedicating an old PC to machine control and/or spending hundreds of $ on software licenses.

I don't understand it either. When I walked into the CNC community I felt like I was in a room with a bunch of stoic old machinists smoking cigars and, basically, living in the past. Then I saw RepRap and it was now, it was on cutting edge and people were running it on all modern OSes and computers. Why this disparity? Why are the CNC people happy to run on 1985 style equipment, and software, where the additive people have everything that would bring the subtractive people into the 21st century if only they wanted to be brought here? Well, I do and that is the fly in the ointment. I am some sort of heretic for even thinking, or wanting, to do CNC stuff with modern things.

Quote
Dark Alchemist
Why are the CNC people happy to run on 1985 style equipment, and software

"Never, ever, ever change a working system!" or "If it's not broken don't fix it!"

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

rhmorrison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Why are the CNC people happy to run on 1985
> style equipment, and software
>
>
> "Never, ever, ever change a working system!" or
> "If it's not broken don't fix it!"
You left out a piece UNLESS what you have has become antiquated. Like running around with a Ford Model T or A because it still runs just fine.

I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the newer is better bandwagon.
The old PC's were often running DOS and the PC directly controlled the motors.
Modern PC's have Windows 7 (or soon Windows 8) and although very powerful it is still a multi-tasking operating system that doesn't give the same 'real time' control that a single program on an antiquated DOS system does.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

Not only that but my XP machines have flawless UDP comms on a local network but my brand new Windows 7 laptop drops packets. So each version of OS and hardware gets less suitable for controlling machinery.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

So, where does one go to buy these antiquated operating systems or does one have to resort to piracy to get them (Microsoft will not allow you to sell your old version of the program once it has been used and it is considered piracy unless the package is pristine and the key as well)? See my point about antiquated?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2012 08:26AM by Dark Alchemist.

Yes this is why RepRap delegates all the real time stuff to a micro so it works on all types of PC and OS.

Having said that I am about to set up a CNC mill using an old PC with a parallel port with Linux and EMC2. I don't need to buy old PCs I just don't throw them out when they get too old. It is a good way to make use of them because they are just as good as when they were new, just not up to the latest level of software bloat.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

nophead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes this is why RepRap delegates all the real time
> stuff to a micro so it works on all types of PC
> and OS.
>
> Having said that I am about to set up a CNC mill
> using an old PC with a parallel port with Linux
> and EMC2. I don't need to buy old PCs I just don't
> throw them out when they get too old. It is a good
> way to make use of them because they are just as
> good as when they were new, just not up to the
> latest level of software bloat.
I wish you were correct but after having a few of my electronics crap out and die on me (as soon as the warranty goes) due to One Hung Lo made craptastic capacitors I fear old electronics these days. Maybe pre rise of China would be fine when a good cap was made in Japan.

... I was using a 'semi-old' CAD/CAM and controller from Isel with serial communication, that is running on every DOS-/Windows-PC or notebook with serial port and with most USBtoRS232-converters on modern OSes too.

But now, as I'm in the situation to work with the newest Delcam-CAD/CAM's, I'm planning to change to a Win7@64bit system and insist at Delcam England to add some functionality for laser-sintering and 3D-printing, so my tool-chain will reduce to a single application for designing, milling, 3Dprinting and laser-cutting/-sintering ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... I was using a 'semi-old' CAD/CAM and
> controller from Isel with serial communication,
> that is running on every DOS-/Windows-PC or
> notebook with serial port and with most
> USBtoRS232-converters on modern OSes too.
>
> But now, as I'm in the situation to work with the
> newest Delcam-CAD/CAM's, I'm planning to change to
> a Win7@64bit system and insist at Delcam England
> to add some functionality for laser-sintering and
> 3D-printing, so my tool-chain will reduce to a
> single application for designing, milling,
> 3Dprinting and laser-cutting/-sintering ...

See, that is what I am talking about but on our level.

... AFAIK Delcam England was/is supporting the RepRap community and participating in some projects around 3D-printing for medical applications.

Maybe there will be some feedback to RepRap from their outcommings?

I'm developing tools and methodes around 3D-scanning and -printing in my free time, but this is more aimed on laser-sintering than FDM-fabbing, so a sidepath to RepRap ... but good chances for some crosstalk ;-)

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

I believe so because anything that controls the servos in a 64 bit world will be awesome.

You know I have some program that I tried that generated g-code and it worked in Windows 7 64 bit so really the last hold up is Mach 3.

FYI, mach4 is in the works, and has some new features that hopefully will address some of the parallel port issues with x64 OS's, as well as USB coms.

As for running your milling/routing gcode, most reprap firmwares read the same gcode for motion as more conventional CNC's, so as long as you can post the Gcode from your CAM software as spline segments (no G2/G3's for now) and you might have to modify some of the tool info, it should read and run on an ardy just fine?

... my 'Isel-RepStrap' was printing fine, when I've swapped the original RS232-interface against a RAMPS with Pronterface/Printrun, so no problem to avoid MACH and parallel ports

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

johnoly99 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FYI, mach4 is in the works, and has some new
> features that hopefully will address some of the
> parallel port issues with x64 OS's, as well as USB
> coms.
>
> As for running your milling/routing gcode, most
> reprap firmwares read the same gcode for motion as
> more conventional CNC's, so as long as you can
> post the Gcode from your CAM software as spline
> segments (no G2/G3's for now) and you might have
> to modify some of the tool info, it should read
> and run on an ardy just fine?

I have only seen whispers of Mach4 and thought they were wishful thinking. How far along is Mach4?

bobc Wrote:
> What features are missing? A lot of people seem to
> run grbl
> [dank.bengler.no] quite
> happily.

No real EStop support would be enough to kill it for me, you could work around that by wiring estop to reset or power, but you'd lose the home position on a reset.
No support for multiple coordinate frames.
No G2/G3 support.
If you put a PC based front end on it, jogging with a pendant over USB has significant latency and is less than ideal.
It's fine, just very basic by modern control software standards, there is also the issue of the USB link mills can be electrically very noisy, USB tends to introduce ground loops, go look at the complaints from the early smooth stepper adopters, it's why he eventually switched to Ethernet.
A Smoothstepper is just an ARM processor with an FPGA for signal generation, massive overkill for most CNC usage, but the price isn't unreasonable.

>
> There seems to be a big gulf between the CNC and
> RepRap communities, which is odd because once you
> have the GCode the functions and technologies used
> are very similar. I can't see why the same tools
> cannot be used for both purposes, perhaps it is
> NIH syndrome.

I think it's different priorities.
Cost was a big deal with Reprap though I'm surprised that something like EMC2 wasn't used. I guess the death of parallel ports led them to look for a USB solution and Arduinos were popular and cheap.
When something goes wrong with a motion controller on a mill, it has significantly bigger impact than on a printer. Most broken tools are just $ but when misplacing a decimal point in some hand entered gcode I've seen my mill run a 1/4 inch carbide cutter into a piece of metal shatter the cutter and catapult it across my garage fast enough it embed in in the drywall 10ft away. Having something proven is a lot more important in the space.
That coupled with the distinct communities and new users are likely to continue to use whatever software is prevalent in their space.

In principle though I agree and when I first got into printers my first thought was using an arduino as a motion controller, I'm just not sure the cost savings would make it worth the effort over something like a Smoothstepper.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2012 12:03PM by Polygonhell.

EMC isn't used because it only runs on Linux with real time extensions on a PCU with a parallel port, whereas RepRap runs on Windows, Linux and Mac and only requires a USB port, which all modern PCs have.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

The mindset of the CNC world where booting from a 3.5" diskette to run a manufacturer's utility to configure some IRQs is a normal thing is not for me either... Been there, done that, never again.

Anyways... I wanted a CNC mill so I bought a Proxxon MF70, printed motor mounts for it and tried running it with reprap-style electronics (Sanguinololu), firmware (Marlin) and software (Pronterface) and... it works just fine. See here how it mills a T2.5 motor pulley.

ttsalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The mindset of the CNC world where booting from a
> 3.5" diskette to run a manufacturer's utility to
> configure some IRQs is a normal thing is not for
> me either... Been there, done that, never again.
>
> Anyways... I wanted a CNC mill so I bought a
> Proxxon MF70, printed motor mounts for it and
> tried running it with reprap-style electronics
> (Sanguinololu), firmware (Marlin) and software
> (Pronterface) and... it works just fine. See here
> how it mills a T2.5 motor pulley.
I like it and the video was very nice. So, any plans and BoM around?

The RepRap solution should work just fine for milling, as ttsalo said. Skeinforge even supports generating subtractive tool paths, though I don't know how developed it is.

---

Help improve the RepRap wiki! Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing. Anyone can edit the wiki!

NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The RepRap solution should work just fine for
> milling, as ttsalo said. Skeinforge even supports
> generating subtractive tool paths, though I don't
> know how developed it is.
I still haven't seen mention, or maybe I missed it, of a direct replacement for Mach3.

If you were using an Arduino as a motion controller your Mach3 equivalent would be Pronterface or Repetier Host or similar.
Which are very basic by comparison.

Polygonhell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you were using an Arduino as a motion
> controller your Mach3 equivalent would be
> Pronterface or Repetier Host or similar.
> Which are very basic by comparison.

Nothing PC based? I find it so ironic that not a single programmer out of the millions has done one to take advantage of the modern equipment in all of this length of time.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing PC based? I find it so ironic that not a
> single programmer out of the millions has done one
> to take advantage of the modern equipment in all
> of this length of time.

Real time control with a modern PC operating system is all but impossible. That's why we use Arduinos to do the real time stuff.

---

Help improve the RepRap wiki! Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing. Anyone can edit the wiki!