Looking for some software.

NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nothing PC based? I find it so ironic that not
> a
> > single programmer out of the millions has done
> one
> > to take advantage of the modern equipment in
> all
> > of this length of time.
>
> Real time control with a modern PC operating
> system is all but impossible. That's why we use
> Arduinos to do the real time stuff.
So, suddenly we went into a 64 bit world and real time went out the window? Mach3 works in a 32bit world and really doesn't in a 64 bit world because of the issues that plagued all programmers when 64 bit came out (xp 64, vista 64, W7 64)...the drivers had to be redone from scratch pretty much. Mach3 never did that and why it is stuck on XP 32 bit as its last OS it will work on but I never read it was due to a real time issue.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2012 08:44PM by Dark Alchemist.

... it's mostly the unprdictable behaviour of the OS with the priority and time-slices for specific applications - you can't be sure, the idle-time between two step clocks will be the same over time.

You can see the differences in milling outputs between a RT-OS (or controller) and a modern standard OS (either Win or Linux) ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NewPerfection Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Nothing PC based? I find it so ironic that
> not
> > a
> > > single programmer out of the millions has
> done
> > one
> > > to take advantage of the modern equipment in
> > all
> > > of this length of time.
> >
> > Real time control with a modern PC operating
> > system is all but impossible. That's why we
> use
> > Arduinos to do the real time stuff.
> So, suddenly we went into a 64 bit world and real
> time went out the window? Mach3 works in a 32bit
> world and really doesn't in a 64 bit world because
> of the issues that plagued all programmers when 64
> bit came out (xp 64, vista 64, W7 64)...the
> drivers had to be redone from scratch pretty much.
> Mach3 never did that and why it is stuck on XP 32
> bit as its last OS it will work on but I never
> read it was due to a real time issue.

Windows is not designed for real-time, it is no suprise that a product not designed for a task does not do it very well. If you have a motor home, you don't enter it in an Indycar race. Windows is designed for desktop and server applications.

A real-time aspect of Windows is still required to interact with hardware, handle interrupts and write to physical memory addresses, which is what device drivers are for. A regular Windows app runs in a sandbox way above the device drivers. Microsoft increasingly try to provide less access under the hood to reduce impact of rogue applications.

The reason Mach3 requires drivers is to get real-time control, which a normal app does not get. Drivers can be ported to 64 bits, it is just a question of time and money. We had all the same problems moving from 16 to 32 bit. It is a major architectural change, Microsoft provide a degree of mixing 32/64 bit, but vendors need to rewrite drivers ti support 64 bit properly.

Still, at the end of day Windows XP was not designed for hard real-time applications, nor is Windows 7 etc. If Windows 7 requires too much bodging to make it work real-time, it is more a case of choosing the wrong tool for the job, than a problem with Windows.

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... it's mostly the unprdictable behaviour of the
> OS with the priority and time-slices for specific
> applications - you can't be sure, the idle-time
> between two step clocks will be the same over
> time.
>
> You can see the differences in milling outputs
> between a RT-OS (or controller) and a modern
> standard OS (either Win or Linux) ...
Is this possibly because of the many cores and it might be servicing one of the cores then gets back around to you eventually sort of scenario?

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NewPerfection Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Nothing PC based? I find it so ironic that
> > not
> > > a
> > > > single programmer out of the millions has
> > done
> > > one
> > > > to take advantage of the modern equipment
> in
> > > all
> > > > of this length of time.
> > >
> > > Real time control with a modern PC operating
> > > system is all but impossible. That's why we
> > use
> > > Arduinos to do the real time stuff.
> > So, suddenly we went into a 64 bit world and
> real
> > time went out the window? Mach3 works in a
> 32bit
> > world and really doesn't in a 64 bit world
> because
> > of the issues that plagued all programmers when
> 64
> > bit came out (xp 64, vista 64, W7 64)...the
> > drivers had to be redone from scratch pretty
> much.
> > Mach3 never did that and why it is stuck on XP
> 32
> > bit as its last OS it will work on but I never
> > read it was due to a real time issue.
>
> Windows is not designed for real-time, it is no
> suprise that a product not designed for a task
> does not do it very well. If you have a motor
> home, you don't enter it in an Indycar race.
> Windows is designed for desktop and server
> applications.
>
> A real-time aspect of Windows is still required to
> interact with hardware, handle interrupts and
> write to physical memory addresses, which is what
> device drivers are for. A regular Windows app runs
> in a sandbox way above the device drivers.
> Microsoft increasingly try to provide less access
> under the hood to reduce impact of rogue
> applications.
>
> The reason Mach3 requires drivers is to get
> real-time control, which a normal app does not
> get. Drivers can be ported to 64 bits, it is just
> a question of time and money. We had all the same
> problems moving from 16 to 32 bit. It is a major
> architectural change, Microsoft provide a degree
> of mixing 32/64 bit, but vendors need to rewrite
> drivers ti support 64 bit properly.
>
> Still, at the end of day Windows XP was not
> designed for hard real-time applications, nor is
> Windows 7 etc. If Windows 7 requires too much
> bodging to make it work real-time, it is more a
> case of choosing the wrong tool for the job, than
> a problem with Windows.
I agree with you but this is not the question at hand since Windows has been doing it with Mach3 for years now but rather the devs are lazy. We were lazy with 16 to 32 and just as lazy with 32 to 64. Fact is so many programs ceased to be made because the authors didn't want to go back and rewrite their drivers back when XP 64 was created. So, this is no different.

Not a fact, rightly or wrongly, of a real time issue it is because the author(s) are just as lazy as we were in the transitional period but lazy was when they first changed 64 bit has been out now for at least 6 years.

... we have customers with single-, 4- or 8-core PC's, that have the same realtime-issues with proffessional CAM's like PowerMILL, that are capable of serving the cores - so more a general problem with modern OSes without a special RT-module ...

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VDX Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... it's mostly the unprdictable behaviour of
> the
> > OS with the priority and time-slices for
> specific
> > applications - you can't be sure, the idle-time
> > between two step clocks will be the same over
> > time.
> >
> > You can see the differences in milling outputs
> > between a RT-OS (or controller) and a modern
> > standard OS (either Win or Linux) ...
> Is this possibly because of the many cores and it
> might be servicing one of the cores then gets back
> around to you eventually sort of scenario?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2012 07:31AM by VDX.

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

There is a huge difference between Real Time operating systems and none real time Operating Systems.
Mach does very well considering if the hardware doesn't introduce too much additional latency, but Windows post any version based on te NT Kernel is the wrong thing to be used as a motion controller, even at the device driver level you just don't have the latency guarantees to do a good job. Which is why you'll see people not running network connections at the same time as Mach etc etc.
I do agree they could probably port the 32bit Vista driver to Win7 64bit, kernel level driver work is a pain in the ass, and 32 to 64 bit conversions aren't as easy as hitting recompile, the Mach3 guys chose not to do it, that impacts their sale in some way, and they are apparently happy with that.
EMC2 produces a marginally better pulse train under Linux with RT extensions than Mach does under XP based on my simple attaching a scope, it supports none linear acceleration which is actually a fairly big win, I use Mach to drive my mill because the Wizards make simple operations convenient and you end up doing a lot of simple operations.

As an aside most people running mills do it off a dedicated machine, so it's not much of an issue.
If you want to run Win7 64bit on that dedicated machine or a machine without a parallel port, you can even do that by using an external hardware based controller like a smooth stepper or a Kflop or one of the others, they will let you run at much faster step rates with a cleaner signal. This is similar to running something like proterface and an Arduino based solution, though both the SmoothStepper and Kflop are considerably more powerful.
Neither of the motion controllers I listed there are prohibitively expensive when you factor in the cost of a mill, the other electronics, and tooling which can get expensive very quickly.

I must reinvestigate a Smoothstepper but I have not heard of Kflop before. How would I get my stl over to the controller? I hope I could use my Windows 7 based pc (I refuse Windows 8 and hope Windows 9 comes back to sanity) to send the files over and I saw this one guy who Bluetoothed his pc to his CNC to make the motors work as he demonstrated it.

btw, this is what confuses me

Quote

The video shows MachDrive is running with USB SmoothStepper from Warp9 Tech Design to make cncroom.com sign cutting.
The MachDrive is CPLD-based, using LMD18245 proven reliable driver chip, 4 axis bipolar microstepping motor driver, able to drive up to 3 Amp 48 Vdc. All in one design including opto-isolated parallel port interface, charge pump, idle current reduction, high output current for driving external relays, all are packed inside small footprint of red anodized aluminum heat sink housing with convenience pluggable screw terminal. Works with Stepper and Direction controller software such as Mach2, Mach3, TurboCNC, KCam and EMC

If smoothstepper is all of that why the mention of those drivers like Mach2/Mach3/etc...?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2012 12:20PM by Dark Alchemist.

AFAICS the MachDrive is just a stepper driver/breakout board combo very much like the Gecko G540's etc.

The smoothstepper is a motion controller, it just converts Mach's motion controls (pre planning I believe) into clean step signals for stepper drivers, it's got either an ethernet connector or a USB connector on one end, and several DB25 connectors on the other. The Smoothstepper buffers input from whatever mach's plugin interface is, does pathplanning and sends out nice pulse trains. It also deals with inputs on the pins and few other ancillary things. AFAIK (and I haven't looked lately) it's heavily coupled to Mach's plugin interface.
The KFlop does much the same thing as the Smoothstepper except that it has a well defined interface you can relatively easily write to, to buid your own control software if that's what you want.

Polygonhell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFAICS the MachDrive is just a stepper
> driver/breakout board combo very much like the
> Gecko G540's etc.
>
> The smoothstepper is a motion controller, it just
> converts Mach's motion controls (pre planning I
> believe) into clean step signals for stepper
> drivers, it's got either an ethernet connector or
> a USB connector on one end, and several DB25
> connectors on the other. The Smoothstepper buffers
> input from whatever mach's plugin interface is,
> does pathplanning and sends out nice pulse
> trains. It also deals with inputs on the pins and
> few other ancillary things. AFAIK (and I haven't
> looked lately) it's heavily coupled to Mach's
> plugin interface.
> The KFlop does much the same thing as the
> Smoothstepper except that it has a well defined
> interface you can relatively easily write to, to
> buid your own control software if that's what you
> want.
Kflop it is then as I was reading about the smoothstepper and meh. What I did not understand is how Mach3 wrote to the Smoothstepper since the SS has USB or Ethernet to connect to it. Seems like you have Mach3 to the parallel port that goes to the SS as does my ethernet cable but why the two interconnections?

KFLOP 8-axis Motion Control Board w/Software included........................$249 +Tax,S&H

8 axis? Sheesh. Give me just 5 and drop the price to 179.00, lol.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2012 12:42PM by Dark Alchemist.

The SS just plugs into either the USB port or the Ethernet port the parallel header is to make it easy yo plug into existing breakout boards.
There are 2 versions of the SS you either use Ethernet or USB, if you were going to buy one, you want the Ethernet one, Mills can be very picky about wiring noise and USB connections exacerbate the issue.

It's probably as easy to support 8 as 5, in fact given the CPU's used I'd be surprised if they couldn't run significantly more.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you but this is not the question at
> hand since Windows has been doing it with Mach3
> for years now but rather the devs are lazy. We
> were lazy with 16 to 32 and just as lazy with 32
> to 64. Fact is so many programs ceased to be made
> because the authors didn't want to go back and
> rewrite their drivers back when XP 64 was created.
> So, this is no different.
>
> Not a fact, rightly or wrongly, of a real time
> issue it is because the author(s) are just as lazy
> as we were in the transitional period but lazy was
> when they first changed 64 bit has been out now
> for at least 6 years.

No, the issue *is* that Windows is not designed to run these type of real-time applications. The fact that Windows 32 has been running Mach3 plus additional drivers to get real-time perfromance does not change that fact.

Also, I don't understand the faixation with Mach3. It seems like there is a rule "Real CNC guys run Mach3", and if you don't you are wimp. Mach3 is a just a GCode processor with a fancy GUI, there is nothing magic about it.

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I agree with you but this is not the question
> at
> > hand since Windows has been doing it with Mach3
> > for years now but rather the devs are lazy. We
> > were lazy with 16 to 32 and just as lazy with
> 32
> > to 64. Fact is so many programs ceased to be
> made
> > because the authors didn't want to go back and
> > rewrite their drivers back when XP 64 was
> created.
> > So, this is no different.
> >
> > Not a fact, rightly or wrongly, of a real time
> > issue it is because the author(s) are just as
> lazy
> > as we were in the transitional period but lazy
> was
> > when they first changed 64 bit has been out now
> > for at least 6 years.
>
> No, the issue *is* that Windows is not designed to
> run these type of real-time applications. The fact
> that Windows 32 has been running Mach3 plus
> additional drivers to get real-time perfromance
> does not change that fact.
>
> Also, I don't understand the faixation with Mach3.
> It seems like there is a rule "Real CNC guys run
> Mach3", and if you don't you are wimp. Mach3 is a
> just a GCode processor with a fancy GUI, there is
> nothing magic about it.

I don't give a darn about the real time possibilities, or lack of it, from Windows. My point is that Mach3's programmers are lazy. They have it running in a 32 bit environment but were too damn lazy for the last 6 years plus to change their code to work in the 64 bit world. It is not an easy thing to do but we all had to do it or die. They suffer from the luxury of having old stoic machinists who knows something works so don't change it attitudes. Put the Mach3 devs in the real world programming anything else and they would have went bankrupt and lost their jobs. That *is* my point. There it is out there and I said it.

Now to your second point I wish I could get away from Mach anything but it seems they control it all in the CNC world and anything else is just junk. They probably would whip Mach's butt in a CNC fight but it isn't Mach so it must be junk which is because of my first point stoic machinists have never ever been known to embrace change readily.

So, to use your own words "Mach3 is a just a GCode processor with a fancy GUI, there is nothing magic about it. " and that is why I stand by my assertion that those lazy could have made it for the 64 bit world because it isn't anything super special. Sure the real time stuff is an issue but it isn't an issue enough to have prevented them from putting it on all OSes that are 32 bit. Hell, if I had Windows 7 32bit the darn thing would run from what I was told. So, again they just didn't want to go back and remake their drivers is the biggest issue which was lazy of them.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2012 01:12PM by Dark Alchemist.

> Also, I don't understand the faixation with Mach3.
> It seems like there is a rule "Real CNC guys run
> Mach3", and if you don't you are wimp. Mach3 is a
> just a GCode processor with a fancy GUI, there is
> nothing magic about it.

Yep that's exactly what it is, the reason it's popular on mills is it makes a lot of simple operations "simple". i.e. convenience.
You lose a certain amount of usability when you remove the manual portion of a mill, operations like squaring stock become a lot more painful than they are on a manual machine.
The wizards which are basically parametric GCode generators are for me at least the value over something like EMC2 (which I run an older version of on a smaller mill).
It also has a pretty nice interface for tool offsets and multiple coordinate sets that are a pain todo in other packages.
None of those features are at all interesting in the printing space where manufacturing is home nozzle, and press print, but milling a part of any complexity is usually a lot more involved, usually with multiple operations.
It's one of the reasons I'll usually print a part if ABS is strong enough and I can get the tolerances I need from the printer.

In fact you can use USB for CNC, just forget mach3 and use a 2013 system like the one on the link [www.planet-cnc.com]

John Dvorack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In fact you can use USB for CNC, just forget mach3
> and use a 2013 system like the one on the link
> [www.planet-cnc.com]
Nice and about time. Since the death of my wife I am moving and keep having to stall (thanks to a lot of different factors) my move but eventually (max 2 weeks) I will be and I am building a 3d printer first and might end up doing a CNC late this year if I suddenly see a need. This USB option is nice to know it exists. Now is that USB 3? USB 3 has more shielding than 2.x and is way faster.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

... only in German actually, but an interesting piece of 2,5D-/3D-/3D+A-software: [estlcam.de]

Actually I'm converting one of the STB-Sanguinolus (got one for 100€, display +50€) for 2D+Dispenser as a controller for my laser-engraver ... and for tests with SLS ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]