New - Makerbot Replicator 2

I don't care open source or closed source. However, why the heck did they make it less capable AND more expensive?! It only prints in PLA?

Also, free customer service should be FREE because we're your customers. Why should I pay $350 for "makercare" to get customer service that is supposed to be free?! I bought Windows 7 and it wouldn't install. I called Windows and they helped me install it. They did not charge me a dime. If they did not help me, then I would reseal the package in saran wrap to make it look like an unopen package and take it back for a refund. Then, I would tell all my friends and family never to buy Windows ever again. I certainly wouldn't pay $350 over the $125 I paid for Windows 7 for someone to answer the phone and help me.

The main reason that I bought a Makerbot Replicator is for the customer service. Most reprap kit sellers are hobbiests with a day job. They cannot answer my questions over the telephone. Many repraps are superior to the replicator in many ways, but I bought the replicator for the superior customer service. Now, they want to charge $350 for that customer service. Therefore, the new replicator 2 is actually $2550, not $2200.

I may still get a replicator 2 to augment my replicator, but I'll have to evaluate my purchase decision as a $2550 machine and not as a $2200 machine. I just think that it's deceiving to market it as a $2200 machine if you're selling the customer service separately. A 3d printer is a testy, cantankerous piece of expermental technology. I doubt any lay person can use it without talking with makerbot customer service... which you'll have to pay $350 for.

Buyer beware.

There is an ABS, or will be in Janurary, and PLA version but it will cost $2700.00

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Andrew Diehl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Open SOURCE means the program the design was made
> in. NOT what program is most accessible to
> everyone. It is not the designer's problem if YOU
> aren't willing to spend the $$ to use what they
> have provided.
>

it' not so much about being willing, i certainly would benefit from a copy of solid works, i simple don't have the $$$$$ do actually buy a copy,

on the flip side if i release my gcode interpreter for the pic in ASM or some cooky language under the same license,only that it requird a several hundred dollar compiler to compile it, I'd get a torrent of complaints and abuse,

> For example, all CAD requires a computer, but if I
> am too broke to buy a computer, I wouldn't dare
> bitch at someone releasing their .scad files
> instead of printing me physical dimensioned
> blueprints.
>
> The majority of things on Thingiverse aren't even
> source files right now. Many people only supply a
> .stl. Almost always, a .stl file came from an
> original blender, Solidworks, 3d point cloud file,
> etc. Stripping the original creation data to
> produce an easily read .stl file is actually the
> opposite of open source. It's like giving someone
> a compiled version of a program. It may be
> possible to modify said program, but not to the
> same extent as if the uncompiled code was
> available.

the difference is stl files can be easily imported manipulated measured from very easily and quickly provided your prepared to learn a thing or two about the various software packages, and it doesn't cost you the diamond the size of a testicle to do so

Andrew Diehl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Open SOURCE means the program the design was made
> in. NOT what program is most accessible to
> everyone. It is not the designer's problem if YOU
> aren't willing to spend the $$ to use what they
> have provided.
>
> For example, all CAD requires a computer, but if I
> am too broke to buy a computer, I wouldn't dare
> bitch at someone releasing their .scad files
> instead of printing me physical dimensioned
> blueprints.
>
> The majority of things on Thingiverse aren't even
> source files right now. Many people only supply a
> .stl. Almost always, a .stl file came from an
> original blender, Solidworks, 3d point cloud file,
> etc. Stripping the original creation data to
> produce an easily read .stl file is actually the
> opposite of open source. It's like giving someone
> a compiled version of a program. It may be
> possible to modify said program, but not to the
> same extent as if the uncompiled code was
> available.

this was exactly what i was trying to say thnx

jolly
just look at it this way, if you make something in blender would you be ok to hack it up to solidworks because i like it onn that programm pls

if you wanted it in a solidworks format and i had acces to solidworks to do then i would do it in a heartbeat, however solidworks is a very expensive cad package that i cannot afford yet,

Jolly, did u see i put the mk7 stls up on reprap for you
?

thejollygrimreaper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if you wanted it in a solidworks format and i had
> acces to solidworks to do then i would do it in a
> heartbeat, however solidworks is a very expensive
> cad package that i cannot afford yet,


thats gr8 to hear but are you going to give all the stuff you will publish to the ppl in advance. so upload it in thingiverse 1 10 different formats because opensource tells you in your opinion?
so a nice cube:
cube in step
cube in openscad
cube in blender
cube in unigraphixs
cube in sketchup
cube in whatever

you probably wont sure youre willing to export it if you had the meanings and if one asks its not a problem. But are you willing to export it with maybe+30 ours of training in the new program for one guy that need it in unknow.step? if you are a buisiness then probably no if you are a single person then probably no. Thats why we have a communitie right?

Elbot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't care open source or closed source.
> However, why the heck did they make it less
> capable AND more expensive?! It only prints in
> PLA?

I'm guessing to appeal more to the average joe.
No ABS = no issues with fumes = no heated bed to burn your finger on and sue the company = less customer support needed etc.

The rules of the game have changed. They're not fishing for customers among makers and geeks anymore.

At least that's the only explanation i can think of, because making an underpowered / underwhelming successor makes no sense otherwise.

Regarding the open source vs. formats hullabaloo...

What if you were blind?
Am i obliged to post designs as descriptive text in braille for it to deserve the name "open source"?
Because i'm sure there's going to be someone who won't be able to see my design whichever format i post it, so it's "not really open source", according to some.

johnoly99: yes i saw that and i've got them now, thankx very much,

weedz: this is just getting silly, and i get the feeling you know it, my opinion on the releasing of solidworks files as a way of meeting the requirements for a opensource license is based on fact and experience,
which is that:

solidworks maybe the best package and it's files the best for the job, it is completely useless for those who cannot afford to buy the package to be given files that can only be opened by that package, to me this doesn't make sense since solidworks can export to dxf and a variety of other formats which are readable with other opensource/not so expensive software

i don't particularly care what other's opinions are in the great format debate, because like the windows vs mac vs linux debate it'll go on and on and on and on and on ........ what interests me is how people get these opinions in the first place and how they keep them and justify them as valid to themselves , i find once you work out why people are hold a certain opinion and keep it, you tend to find the answer a lot of questions, most of the time i find peoples attachment to a particular piece of software comes down to lack of knowledge/and/or willing to learn how to use other pieces of software which are more suitable to the audience,

Right, time to wrap up the OS file format debate, as it's a massive thread hijack - start a specific thread to talk about it if you must. It's ridiculous to argue about it in a thread about a printer that isn't even going to have it's files released.

My view is that it's simple - it all depends on the designer's aims in sharing. If a designer wants maximum exposure, and perhaps maximum collaboration, choose a file that allows for that, eg Openscad or Blender, which are open/free. If the designer just wants to make an idea available, design in whatever they want, eg solidworks, and export a file that makes the design available, eg stl; it can always be reverse engineered. If you're bitching about that, it's just because you want a free ride. If the designer wants to leverage the profit from a design, don't distribute files. Designers design in software that is most appropriate for the job, the outcomes, or ultimately what is familiar to them. Get over it. Open SOURCE files are just that, like Andrew said 20 posts back, that the design source is available to all. It's up to the designer what source that is, and whether an alternative is provided. You can't force people to produce what YOU want.

Going back to the discussion about the Replicator 2, I think it's overpriced, pro-sumer/small business-orientated, disappointingly closed-source, stupidly limited (to PLA, and the ABS version due out seems very pricey) design. I'm sure it will actually print very nicely, should be robust, and will sell by the ton as Makerbot now have the backing to get some proper coverage. Consumers couldn't care less about arguments regarding open/closed source, they are just not that altruistic; Makerbot will get some bad press from niche areas such as here, but the steam roller of their publicity will keep rolling. Bre Pettis may make some mollifying statements, and I really hope the pressure of the community will cause him to re-write the Terms and Conditions of the Thingiverse site (or, better still, split it off as an .org), but it's inescapable that someone was going to have to lead the charge into the mass market. This has SO MANY parallels with the home computer industry of the late 70s. You could even regard Makerbot as the Apple of the 3D print industry, supplying a locked-in ecosystem for it's customers.

droftarts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
[snip]
> This has SO MANY parallels with the home
> computer industry of the late 70s. You could even
> regard Makerbot as the Apple of the 3D print
> industry, supplying a locked-in ecosystem for it's
> customers.
It sure does for we old geezers who were back in those times. Heck, even into the early 90's the war was raging (really was a 20 year war from 1975-1995) and the similarities here is not dissimilar.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

pla allows higher resolution. it is how they are able to claim the 100 micron best resolution 3d printer.

I would suggest that moreso they're trying to advertise within the present "green" environment.

PLA is not dependent on fossil fuel
PLA produces far less toxins (afaik) if it reaches decomposition temperature
PLA works at lower temperatures than materials like ABS (meaning it requires less energy to print a part in PLA than it does in ABS/etc)
PLA is to some degree biodegradable

All of the above are considered positives within the sociopolitical environment. Yes, PLA isn't ABS (or nylon, or polycarbonate). That's obvious. It's not going to perform as a finished material for most engineering uses as well as some of the higher temp plastics. But one should not discount the power of the green issues in business purchases or at a personal level (regardless of the affect upon people with less dogmatic views, imagine the engineer or artist who is a rigid acolyte of the green movement...)

Another outcome of the use of PLA is quite simple. It means you can have an enclosed design with less thermal expansion issues in the surrounding mechanism, and fire hazards are considerably reduced. (454F ~= 235C => Paper voooosh! ) I don't know if they were required to do so, but if they were or will be in the future, it sure would make UL approval a bit easier.

jamesdanielv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pla allows higher resolution. it is how they are
> able to claim the 100 micron best resolution 3d
> printer.

I'm pretty sure that printing 100 micron layers is not a problem at all with ABS.

---

Help improve the RepRap wiki! Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing. Anyone can edit the wiki!

some of us in the irc channel do less than 1/2 of that everyday just for fun , josef prusa did 0.01mm a couple of days ago


NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jamesdanielv Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > pla allows higher resolution. it is how they
> are
> > able to claim the 100 micron best resolution 3d
> > printer.
>
> I'm pretty sure that printing 100 micron layers is
> not a problem at all with ABS.

Saw .08 (80 microns) from a pic Prusa did 5 months ago. Was up on Flickr I think.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Releasing a "fixed" machine with a upgraded frame. While the original still has problems with bed warping (because of plastic supports which soften when the bed is heated, QC?), 1st layer adhesion, warping when machine is not enclosed. After all those facts they have odacity to charge for customer service. Makerbot is becoming like every other corrupt corporation, they forget about the customer and focus on one thing money. For Shame!

Apparently they think there customers are stupid and will believe anything that is written.

In this blog post [www.makerbot.com] they claim that the object takes up the entire build area and only takes 24 hours to print and it states that nothing will take longer than one day to print. But it's only printed at 6% infill. This means it would take 16 days to print a solid object that size not just one day.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

sry bout the offtopic everyone i think i started it so back to topic indeed

Sublime most ppl and average consumers are stupid ( dont want to offend anyone here) if MBI writes something on there website, 75 % of the ppl will believe its true. 25% will be somewhat more technical and will be a little bit more reluctand and of that 25% maybe 5% is on this website ( all rough estimates though).

Thats why they are aiming at the consumers now that want a 3d printer but doesnt want the technical mumbojumbo..... As 3d printing is becoming a little bit of a hype now, their business point of view changed to earn some $$. and for us technogeeks thats a shame but for the general public maybe not even that bad if they want not top of the line prints.

For example if you didnt know what a micron was, 100 Microns sounds just gr8. "wow microns (whats that anyway) thats probably smaller dan a millimeter" is the general thought i think...... but correct me if im wrong.

Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently they think there customers are stupid
> and will believe anything that is written.
>
> In this blog post
> [www.makerbot.com]
> -video-and-some-cool-makerware-specs/ they claim
> that the object takes up the entire build area and
> only takes 24 hours to print and it states that
> nothing will take longer than one day to print.
> But it's only printed at 6% infill. This means it
> would take 16 days to print a solid object that
> size not just one day.

Erm so? It's not false advertising. In fact it correct points out that such objects which are not load-bearing are good enough with 6% infill. How does that tickle you?

So what if a solid object like this will take 16 days? Does it make you feel better if they do state that?

I'm still waiting for a reply from you about this.
Pazu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sublime Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Have a look at the warping on
> > the big white blocks in the Replicator 2 page,
> the
> > side facing away from us and hidden behind the
> > ruler is so warped it could be used to hold
> > bananas.
>
> I fail to see where that it's warped like you
> said. Honestly why the hatred? It's a good enough
> printer for people willing to shell out their
> money. It's not like they are lying about any of
> the advertised features.


I think this whole fiasco only upsets those who has financial interests in making 3d printers. It's quite clear people like Sublime mentions about Tantilus everytime a new printer is out. Get over it man. They do sell more printer than you.

Also, Prusa's complete silence after the whole Thingiverse drama is just plain childish.

Pazu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sublime Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apparently they think there customers are
> stupid
> > and will believe anything that is written.
> >
> > In this blog post
> >
> [www.makerbot.com]
>
> > -video-and-some-cool-makerware-specs/ they
> claim
> > that the object takes up the entire build area
> and
> > only takes 24 hours to print and it states that
> > nothing will take longer than one day to print.
> > But it's only printed at 6% infill. This means
> it
> > would take 16 days to print a solid object that
> > size not just one day.
>
> Erm so? It's not false advertising. In fact it
> correct points out that such objects which are not
> load-bearing are good enough with 6% infill. How
> does that tickle you?
>
> So what if a solid object like this will take 16
> days? Does it make you feel better if they do
> state that?
>
> I'm still waiting for a reply from you about
> this.
> Pazu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sublime Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > Have a look at the warping on
> > > the big white blocks in the Replicator 2
> page,
> > the
> > > side facing away from us and hidden behind
> the
> > > ruler is so warped it could be used to hold
> > > bananas.
> >
> > I fail to see where that it's warped like you
> > said. Honestly why the hatred? It's a good
> enough
> > printer for people willing to shell out their
> > money. It's not like they are lying about any
> of
> > the advertised features.
>
>
> I think this whole fiasco only upsets those who
> has financial interests in making 3d printers.
> It's quite clear people like Sublime mentions
> about Tantilus everytime a new printer is out. Get
> over it man. They do sell more printer than you.
>
> Also, Prusa's complete silence after the whole
> Thingiverse drama is just plain childish.

Ummmmmm........ They out right state nothing will take longer than one day to print. That is a blatant LIE. And 6% infill is only good for art objects, nothing usable can be printed at 6% infill. If you feel they are so great why do you not buy the overpriced rep2 and pay for the support it WILL NEED. I was at a recent maker faire where there was a Replicator owner that had his motherboard replaced 3 times in one week because it was designed incorrectly. It actually had a jumper wire from the voltage regulator to something else because the traces were wrong and they then blamed the endstop wires for the reason the 24v regulator kept blowing. So now they charge you for support so they can sell the same crap but have YOU pay to fix it. They claim better resolution but it has the exact same as the rep1 and it uses almost all the same parts (less though, no heat bed and only one extruder) and claim a larger build area. Well yeah it has a larger build area because it only has one extruder so it can travel further. Any replicator one owner can make their machine print the same size by removing one extruder and making the carriage smaller. The case is also now easier to assemble so it should be taking less man hours and cost less. But no they are charging more and you are getting less. Anyone that falls for it should feel ashamed.

As for my interest I feel strongly about opensource and do this for that reason. I am an out spoken socialist and believe in the real value of being OPEN. Hence why I have released my machine as truly opensource (every file). I even tell everyone where I get my parts. I have no interest in getting rich. If you had been around for any time you would have seen that I contributed more "things" to thingiverse then makerbot did. I removed them months ago when they changed the TOS because it was clear the direction they were going. I only started selling printers because I was asked to. I am in no way concerned about them taking my business. I am one person in an apartment, not some big company.

And to answer the other question. If you can't see the warping I do not know how to show it to you. Some people have an ability to see things spatially that other can not. Its what gives artisans the ability to make things by hand that you would swear are machine built.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2012 06:22AM by Sublime.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

Pazu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think this whole fiasco only upsets those who
> has financial interests in making 3d printers.

I don't have a financial interest in making 3D printers, yet the very idea of previously open source companies within the field turning closed source upsets me. I'm sure there are others like me. Rendering your assertion invalid.

The reason it upsets me, as mentioned many times before, lies in the fact that when members of the open source "community" start going closed source, the proverbial excrement usually starts hitting the proverbial ventilator. Not because such members will somehow be more popular than their still-open-sourced colleagues, but because suits play by different rules - namely extinguishing any/all competition by use of patent rights, misuse of licences and legal threats.

Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And to answer the other question. If you can't see
> the warping I do not know how to show it to you.
> Some people have an ability to see things
> spatially that other can not. Its what gives
> artisans the ability to make things by hand that
> you would swear are machine built.

I presume the attached picture is the one you mean. It's the only 1 I can see on their site. Just a quick photoshop job but it looks pretty straight to me. Of course they could have edited the pictures. Oh the horrid evil people!

OK, perhaps the marketing people was abit over enthusiastic about that 1 day thing. But really, if you have so much beef with that, it's really more constructive to point it out to them rather than piss all over it. It clearly states the infill and the total time taken.

Really, what has their quality got to do with open sourcing their work. I never said their stuff was great, but telling others how to run their business is pretty low in my book.

Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am one person in an apartment, not some big company.

Maybe when you have a family with a young child to support and heads a company with a hundred employees you'd start to think differently.

I think I'm done.

Pazu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
[snip]
> Sublime Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am one person in an apartment, not some big
> company.
>
> Maybe when you have a family with a young child to
> support and heads a company with a hundred
> employees you'd start to think differently.
Ahhh, so this is when people begin to step all over ideas, ideals, and people as they race towards the never ending goal of having money? Gotcha.
>
> I think I'm done.
Yep, stick a fork in you because I believe you are correct.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

[hive.slate.com]

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Alright the world (big business) seems to be going gaga over Pettis as that is the 4th article today I have seen about him over the last 3 months. I bet there is more too.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

They actually pan the replicator and reprap in general.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Pazu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sublime Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And to answer the other question. If you can't
> see
> > the warping I do not know how to show it to
> you.
> > Some people have an ability to see things
> > spatially that other can not. Its what gives
> > artisans the ability to make things by hand
> that
> > you would swear are machine built.
>
> I presume the attached picture is the one you
> mean. It's the only 1 I can see on their site.
> Just a quick photoshop job but it looks pretty
> straight to me. Of course they could have edited
> the pictures. Oh the horrid evil people!
>
> OK, perhaps the marketing people was abit over
> enthusiastic about that 1 day thing. But really,
> if you have so much beef with that, it's really
> more constructive to point it out to them rather
> than piss all over it. It clearly states the
> infill and the total time taken.
>
> Really, what has their quality got to do with open
> sourcing their work. I never said their stuff was
> great, but telling others how to run their
> business is pretty low in my book.
>
> Sublime Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am one person in an apartment, not some big
> company.
>
> Maybe when you have a family with a young child to
> support and heads a company with a hundred
> employees you'd start to think differently.
>
> I think I'm done.

Actually you know nothing. I am a stay at home dad because a lot of us in the modern don't want to keep the 1000 year old stereo type of "man bring home food" "women cook it" bulls**t. I have only been pointing out that all their PR is complete crap like all big business. They no longer care to make a good product when they can just tell you its good and then charge you later to fix it and that is disgusting. It is the OLD way that has brought us to this point in society where most people hate their lives and there are more homeless in the world then happy people. And I did tell them about the mistake, but they filtered the comment until others commented the same thing and now they have changed what it says. No sorry for the mistake but just change it and pretend that no one notices.

What is your problem with me? I only have pointed out 100% true things. No lies like they have, no bullshit PR, just the truth.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2012 04:44PM by Sublime.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pazu Wrote:
[snip]
> Actually you know nothing. I am a stay at home dad
> because a lot of us in the modern don't want to
> keep the 1000 year old stereo type of "man bring
> home food" "women cook it" bulls**t. I have only
> been pointing out that all their PR is complete
> crap like all big business. They no longer care to
> make a good product when they can just tell you
> its good and then charge you later to fix it and
> that is disgusting. It is the OLD way that has
> brought us to this point in society where most
> people hate their lives and there are more
> homeless in the world then happy people. And I did
> tell them about the mistake, but they filtered the
> comment until others commented the same thing and
> now they have changed what it says. No sorry for
> the mistake but just change it and pretend that no
> one notices.
>
> What is your problem with me? I only have pointed
> out 100% true things. No lies like they have, no
> bullshit PR, just the truth.

Well I applaud your sense of breaking out of the status quo of what roles each sex is "supposed" to have but I disagree with you about quality. Want to see quality in electronics? Look to the 1930's through the 1960's when workmanship was where it was at (this is pre Taiwan made crap then Chinese made even worse crap). Big businesses figured out how to screw us all over by building everything with planned obsolesce but not because something better came along but because some capacitor made in a One Hung Lo plant makes crap and big business knows it is crap but they use those crappy caps knowing they will last until shortly after the warranty then you are on your own where most consumers will buy the next thing and our landfills fill up faster each day.

edit: Don't sweat people man they are some real wipes around and no one knows who has what agenda or attachment to what.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2012 04:52PM by Dark Alchemist.

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.