The death of Thingiverse?

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't help it but I have to say (been eating at
> me for a couple of hours now since I read it) that
> I expected more out of Dr. Bowyer than a simple
> press release sort of response. I know that is
> exactly what it is since he copied and pasted it
> in all threads he responded on. Yes, I expected
> more from the founder of RepRap on the RepRap
> forums.

What were you expecting/hoping him to say?

Something a little more personal to us not a copy and paste job on every thread he touched. That seemed cold as hell to me.

If I may quote Nils:

"I wish every post was as entertaining and enlightening as Adrian’s. You’ve made reading this thread tolerable, possibly even a joy. I wish more commenters could be so eloquent."

Some people are just naturally grumpy, I suppose...

---

best wishes

Adrian

[reprap.org]
[reprapltd.com]

... let's see, what remains, when the dust settles ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Adrian Bowyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I may quote Nils:
>
> "I wish every post was as entertaining and
> enlightening as Adrian’s. You’ve made reading
> this thread tolerable, possibly even a joy. I wish
> more commenters could be so eloquent."
>
> Some people are just naturally grumpy, I
> suppose...
At least something, even something like this that didn't touch the subject. Grumpy or not I know I expected way more out of you than what you gave.

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... let's see, what remains, when the dust settles
> ...
That is what I am doing as I still haven't removed my items on Thingiverse and if you look most haven't. Now I am not sure if that is because they have no viable place to go or simply don't care.

Dark Alchemist - if you want more than a carefully researched, thought-out and reasoned 850-word essay (and it's certainly not obvious to me what more anyone could want - perhaps you might give specific examples?) then I am not the person to provide it. Nor have I ever been, nor would I wish to be.

I see that you have been registered here for only two months. I thought all this through years ago - and so it was for the benefit of novitiates such as you that I gave a reference to my prior publicly-available document.

---

best wishes

Adrian

[reprap.org]
[reprapltd.com]

As I said something on a more personal scale would have been better (like you are doing now). Just a drop in and say what is happening more than a C&P job or even adding to it. A single C&P would not have shown it to be as impersonal as it came out to be.

Basically you came off as cold, uncaring and like it was a PR job only which I had not expected from you.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I said something on a more personal scale would
> have been better (like you are doing now). Just a
> drop in and say what is happening more than a C&P
> job or even adding to it. A single C&P would not
> have shown it to be as impersonal as it came out
> to be.
>
> Basically you came off as cold, uncaring and like
> it was a PR job only which I had not expected from
> you.

Heros often disappoint. That says more about the fan than the hero. Who cares if a response is C&P? This is the internet. Did you expect a hand-written letter addressed to you to soothe or stoke your personal feelings?

I guess Dr Bowyer doesn't do expletive filled rants, I think you already have that covered. You are clearly too emotionally invested to recognise a rational opnion when it is presented.

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As I said something on a more personal scale
> would
> > have been better (like you are doing now). Just
> a
> > drop in and say what is happening more than a
> C&P
> > job or even adding to it. A single C&P would
> not
> > have shown it to be as impersonal as it came
> out
> > to be.
> >
> > Basically you came off as cold, uncaring and
> like
> > it was a PR job only which I had not expected
> from
> > you.
>
> Heros often disappoint. That says more about the
> fan than the hero. Who cares if a response is C&P?
> This is the internet. Did you expect a
> hand-written letter addressed to you to soothe or
> stoke your personal feelings?
No, I expected more of just popping in and discussing it on a discussion forum.
>
> I guess Dr Bowyer doesn't do expletive filled
> rants, I think you already have that covered.

Would you like an expletive thrown at you now? I have a few with your name on them but I think you are now just trolling and trying to use subterfuge to cover the fact that his response was cold. Oh, my God I dared to touch upon your God by pointing out his response was the coldest and methodical response that could have been given. Maybe it is the American vs British attitude (I have seen it many times) where Americans like a warmer person and a lot of Brits can be perceived as cold and methodical (especially over the Internet where we can't see the figure).

> You
> are clearly too emotionally invested to recognise
> a rational opnion when it is presented.

Rational opinions are nice but if you noticed the good Doctor he said opinions are worth 0 so what was your point again?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2012 08:58AM by Dark Alchemist.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

... passionate young ppls ...

i almost envy them

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you like an expletive thrown at you now? I
> have a few with your name on them but I think you
> are now just trolling and trying to use subterfuge
> to cover the fact that his response was cold. Oh,
> my God I dared to touch upon your God by pointing
> out his response was the coldest and methodical
> response that could have been given. Maybe it is
> the American vs British attitude (I have seen it
> many times) where Americans like a warmer person
> and a lot of Brits can be perceived as cold and
> methodical (especially over the Internet where we
> can't see the figure).

Well, you certainly fit the American sterotype of acting like an ignorant jerk. You don't have to conform to the sterotype you know.

You have dozens of posts where you are apparently trying to stir up trouble, I can't remember any where you actually helped.

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Would you like an expletive thrown at you now?
> I
> > have a few with your name on them but I think
> you
> > are now just trolling and trying to use
> subterfuge
> > to cover the fact that his response was cold.
> Oh,
> > my God I dared to touch upon your God by
> pointing
> > out his response was the coldest and methodical
> > response that could have been given. Maybe it
> is
> > the American vs British attitude (I have seen
> it
> > many times) where Americans like a warmer
> person
> > and a lot of Brits can be perceived as cold and
> > methodical (especially over the Internet where
> we
> > can't see the figure).
>
> Well, you certainly fit the American sterotype of
> acting like an ignorant jerk. You don't have to
> conform to the sterotype you know.
>
> You have dozens of posts where you are apparently
> trying to stir up trouble, I can't remember any
> where you actually helped.

Then you didn't look very far or hard and it sounds like to me that one of two things happened or maybe both. I dared to speak what I think was the right way for Bowden to approach us and you act as if I insulted Mohammad and/or you have some vested interest in MBI.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

I am so glad Adrian Bowyer stands up to what is expected from a scientist, a leader and a pioneer: vision, paradigm and impersonal thinking. As do most or all of the people that helped build this thriving community, and still help behind the scenes: not with words but with actions.

@Dark Alchemist, you are very vocal about your thoughts/beliefs, repeating them doesn't help get them into other people's minds.

dzach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so glad Adrian Bowyer stands up to what is
> expected from a scientist, a leader and a pioneer:
> vision, paradigm and impersonal thinking. As do
> most or all of the people that helped build this
> thriving community, and still help behind the
> scenes: not with words but with actions.
>
> @Dark Alchemist, you are very vocal about your
> thoughts/beliefs, repeating them doesn't help get
> them into other people's minds.
I only repeat them when someone confronts me. I don't like to repeat them but some among us are a tad blind and so they ask, or attack even if implied, I respond.

I will say that Bowyer is just a man and as such let downs happen but things come and go and people live and die and the world continues on. It is the way of nature.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Of course he is just a man, and as far as I can tell, he tries hard to stay such. But respecting and crediting the developers and the pioneers is high on the ethical code of open source, and I am sure you will agree with that. Calling Bowyer or anyone else out to say the things somebody else finds appropriate doesn't seem to do good to the cause.

What he actually says is indeed very interesting, even more so as he repeats it in the middle of this MakerBot storm:

Quote
Adrian Bowyer
"RepRap is Open Source because Darwinian game-theoretic analysis says that Open Source is an evolutionarily-stable strategy for a useful replicating machine that is intended to maximise its numbers in the world."

Those closing source their products

Quote

[...] have made their machine sterile.

Of course this remains to be seen. The community's reaction is not at all insignificant, it is the ecosystem where this Darwinian game takes place. A sterile machine in such an environment has no future.

To stay on the thread's subject, I believe it is for the benefit of all of us makers to have an alternative open source thingiverse, based on the principles the RepRap community has established and maintain.

Personally, I find wikis, forums and blogs inappropriate for such a service. Despite the wealth of information the RepRap wiki has collected over the years, I find it very difficult to reach the parts that I'm interested in. I believe that most of Thingiverse's success is due to their user friendly interface.

There are positive and creative responses to the problem, like Joshua Pearce's Improved digital design database or Gary Hodgson's githubiverse-template (a demo here) that can be used to make a better open source Thingiverse. I don't know details about the RepRap websites hosting, but if free hosting is available then RepRap seems to be the proper place for such a service.

It all depends on us and on the developers that will give their time and effort to make it happen.

The problem with the sterility argument is that it assumes a lot. Namely:

1) that machines only replicate by self-replication,
2) that self-replication is the only way to evolution,
3) that genetic code of evolved machines is only available to their lineage, and
4) that an average user of a machine cares for any of that.

It's a very naive world-view. Which doesn't mean it's a bad one - on the contrary, naive is often good where emergent behaviour is key. And it's, above all, "clean".
How well it will stand the test of time and, more importantly, its clash with the cold consumerism and tides of the market forces, remains to be seen.

I am always interested to hear Dr Bowyers' views on the whole open source debate as he is clearly a thoughtful man and has been at the whole Reprap thing longer than anyone! I read his reprap policy with interest as below.

[lists.reprap.org].

I can understand that he doesn't want to persue licence infringements as lets face facts it would take up most of his valuable time, but I was curious to his main reasoning that open source Darwinian development will trounce the competition in the end as they will be marching up an evolutionary Cul de sac. Sure survival of the fittest works in nature, but thats because its the only game in town.

I thought very hard, but I cannot think of one example in human history where small open designs have trounced the big guys in both innovation and market share. the closely guard any design and even protect designs they haven't thought of if they can get to the patent office first!

Example Linux Vs Windows.....windows is currently winning.
MS office vs open office etc. is another example.
Farmers markets versus Supermarkets.
Self built cars versus Ford GM etc.

Customers are very brand aware and also inherently lazy. They will go for a known brand already assembled.

Imagine if Hewlet Packard brought out a desktop home fabricator. It would outstrip reprap sales in an instant, would adopt all the best current features and probably a few of its own which they had the finances to develop.

I wish everyone released all their work openly. I have done for years under the GNU licence. Its just a shame there are still too many people who don't and will happily grab other peoples designs for their own profit.

^^^^^^^ What he said.

Open and evolution driven ideologies are nice. But, unfortunately, there's absolutely *nothing* to keep them safe from being eaten by that which lies outside the ideological framework (namely - the real world).

They should be protected even more vehemently than the closed source, market driven designs in order to survive, multiply and keep evolving.
Meaning enforcement of license models and using patents in a defensive manner.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2012 03:56PM by orcinus.

Quote
dzach
The community's reaction is not at all insignificant, it is the ecosystem where this Darwinian game takes place. A sterile machine in such an environment has no future.

Quote
orcinus
The problem with the sterility argument is that it assumes a lot.

You are right, even what I said above assumes that the ecosystem where a self replicating machine lives is "a community", maybe this RepRap community. But this may not be the case tomorrow, most people don't care about self replicating machines, all they may want is make something they need, or share something with others in the sense of "hey, look what I've made!". In a way, the joy of life for a self replicating machine would be making things as much as replicating or repairing itself, without them life has no meaning or cannot last

That last one seems to be a real necessity, hence the success of Thingiverse in an area where the RepRap community does not have user friendly tools to offer. In a sense, the RepRap community is pressed hard by the competition to find ways to evolve. An open source and user friendly repository of things could become an expanded ecosystem where communities or individual users/consumers can find what they are looking for, things, parts, machines etc to make or buy. This "bio"-diversity maintained by an open source Maker's Library would be a strong reason for everyone, individuals and companies, to participate and feed from.

---

--------------------------------------------------------
3D extruder performance tests
dzach's ORDbot Hadron build

dzach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The community's reaction is not at all
> insignificant, it is the ecosystem where this
> Darwinian game takes place. A sterile machine in
> such an environment has no future.
>
>
> The problem with the sterility argument is that it
> assumes a lot.
>
>
> You are right, even what I said above assumes that
> the ecosystem where a self replicating machine
> lives is "a community", maybe this RepRap
> community. But this may not be the case tomorrow,
> most people don't care about self replicating
> machines, all they may want is make something they
> need, or share something with others in the sense
> of "hey, look what I've made!". In a way, the joy
> of life for a self replicating machine would be
> making things as much as replicating or repairing
> itself, without them life has no meaning or cannot
> last
>
> That last one seems to be a real necessity, hence
> the success of Thingiverse in an area where the
> RepRap community does not have user friendly tools
> to offer. In a sense, the RepRap community is
> pressed hard by the competition to find ways to
> evolve. An open source and user friendly
> repository of things could become an expanded
> ecosystem where communities or individual
> users/consumers can find what they are looking
> for, things, parts, machines etc to make or buy.
> This "bio"-diversity maintained by an open source
> Maker's Library would be a strong reason for
> everyone, individuals and companies, to
> participate and feed from.
That reminds me of the Linux vs Windows world I lived in for about 8 years (1998-2006) and still to this day Windows wins over Linux due to how friendly it is (even a monkey can use Windows) though Linux has advanced greatly.

You are 100% correct most people really don't give a rats behind if their machine can self replicate they just want a machine that is friendly to use, fast to print, looks ascetically pleasing, is reasonably priced, and makes beautiful stuff. It is the way of the consumer and RepRap is not ready for a consumer minded market yet as it lacks every one of those consumer points (missing the mark on several of those by miles). Heck, "Honey, you aren't putting that ugly thing in my beautiful house" comes quickly to mind as most consumers will stick it in the garage and use it a few times to soon become a toy on the isle of misfit RepRaps. Now, to the common consumer The Cube looks cute and makes prints and is extremely closed sourced to the point of demanding you log on to a web site and get your code to enter into it before it will do a single print but it is friendly to print with, looks very ascetically pleasing, is reasonably priced, and makes beautiful stuff (prints). The speed part is the same with any extruder so it makes it mark on so many mass consumer points.

Before anyone gets their knickers in a bunch I am not putting down RepRap I am simply stating that which anyone who has went to college about marketing would learn.

RepRap is like the early days of Linux where it was forboding to run and you used the CLI to do everything and you needed to know your stuff to keep it running in case something happened. I loved that era but the consumers hated it and that is exactly where we are in the RepRap community which means the closed sourced printers may reduce the repraps into obscurity and a foot note in the electronic history books which blows because RepRap has a tremendous amount of potential in my mind but you have to admit that Replicator 2 is one sexy looking beast and most consumers judge the book by its cover first before all else.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

$100 for the privledge to all use of the Heart Gears? Prior to the Feb '12 TOS?

Is that a similie or a metaphor?

Whatever, I am sure that it was completely deliberate.


-Phuzzy

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RepRap is like the early days of Linux where it
> was forboding to run and you used the CLI to do
> everything and you needed to know your stuff to
> keep it running in case something happened.

It's nothing like it. Except for the huge turn-key players like Stratasys et al, all FDM printers are pretty much alike. There's no difference. They all require some meddling and they're all about as usable as the next one. Linux, on the other hand, still is a toy as far as serious desktop OS market is concerned. And it quite probably will never get over it. The key difference here is, Linux has "greater" aspirations (even though they're probably unachievable and - more importantly - completely unnecessary, because there's simply no commercial or developmental reason for it to try and force itself into markets it's not suitable for nor versed in), while RepRap does not. Nor does it need them, because whole market is pretty much the same.

orcinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > RepRap is like the early days of Linux where it
> > was forboding to run and you used the CLI to do
> > everything and you needed to know your stuff to
> > keep it running in case something happened.
>
> It's nothing like it. Except for the huge turn-key
> players like Stratasys et al, all FDM printers are
> pretty much alike. There's no difference. They all
> require some meddling and they're all about as
> usable as the next one. Linux, on the other hand,
> still is a toy as far as serious desktop OS market
> is concerned. And it quite probably will never get
> over it. The key difference here is, Linux has
> "greater" aspirations (even though they're
> probably unachievable and - more importantly -
> completely unnecessary, because there's simply no
> commercial or developmental reason for it to try
> and force itself into markets it's not suitable
> for nor versed in), while RepRap does not. Nor
> does it need them, because whole market is pretty
> much the same.
We disagree once again. While the innards may be the same it is what it looks like that matter more than you think in a consumer market. Don't look at it like a RepRap owner nor a hacker look at it like a mom and pop joe/jane sixpack type of consumer.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

err... so if you took your stuff off of thingiverse, where can i find them now? i looked at "github" and did not find anything. Am I doing it wrong? Maybe it's kinda complicated like bitorrent? Still can't figure that one out....

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> than you think in a consumer market. Don't look
> at it like a RepRap owner nor a hacker look at it
> like a mom and pop joe/jane sixpack type of
> consumer.

You're right, but currently, there isn't a machine for a mom and pop joe/jane sixpack consumer.
There is, but it's way way out of their price range and their working/hobbyist circles.

And that's unlikely to change, because FDM is a finicky thing. Big corporations solve that by mammoth support departments and tight and strict control over consumables. They can do that because big customers who buy from big corporations have the money to buy it. And because there's a lot less of them than mom and pop consumers. There are inbetweeners like Up that use the big corp tactics on medium and small customers, but that raises the base price as well. Plus, it obviously doesn't work that well, or there'd be Up!s in every suburban garage or work desk by now.

So the target market really are only DIY types and geeky ne'erdowells. At least for now.
That will probably change, though, especially when other technologies (powder, SLA, DLP) start proliferating.

But actually, we do agree in the key point (at least i think). Which is that there is no future without catering to (at least in some way) or taking into account the consumer market and convenience. Hence - the need for Thingiverse (for example).

Elbot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> err... so if you took your stuff off of
> thingiverse, where can i find them now? i looked
> at "github" and did not find anything. Am I doing
> it wrong? Maybe it's kinda complicated like
> bitorrent? Still can't figure that one out....

LOL... Yes, that's exactly the point.
(if you were trying to make one... if not, i hope someone will answer that )

Although i'd imagine for most users of RepRaps and FDM machines it wouldn't be "still can't figure that one out" as much as "couldn't be bothered".

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2012 09:19PM by orcinus.

orcinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > than you think in a consumer market. Don't
> look
> > at it like a RepRap owner nor a hacker look at
> it
> > like a mom and pop joe/jane sixpack type of
> > consumer.
>
> You're right, but currently, there isn't a machine
> for a mom and pop joe/jane sixpack consumer.
> There is, but it's way way out of their price
> range and their working/hobbyist circles.
>
> And that's unlikely to change, because FDM is a
> finicky thing. Big corporations solve that by
> mammoth support departments and tight and strict
> control over consumables. They can do that because
> big customers who buy from big corporations have
> the money to buy it. And because there's a lot
> less of them than mom and pop consumers. There are
> inbetweeners like Up that use the big corp tactics
> on medium and small customers, but that raises the
> base price as well. Plus, it obviously doesn't
> work that well, or there'd be Up!s in every
> suburban garage or work desk by now.
>
> So the target market really are only DIY types and
> geeky ne'erdowells. At least for now.
> That will probably change, though, especially when
> other technologies (powder, SLA, DLP) start
> proliferating.
>
> But actually, we do agree in the key point (at
> least i think). Which is that there is no future
> without catering to (at least in some way) or
> taking into account the consumer market and
> convenience. Hence - the need for Thingiverse (for
> example).
Yes, that point we do agree on and The Cube is a prime example of a consumer based 3d printer. Would I want it? Nope, not all and I am against their web based key to get it to do much of anything, but I am not a typical consumer either.

This is what I am talking about: [www.youtube.com]

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Quote
martinprice2004
Example Linux Vs Windows.....windows is currently winning.
MS office vs open office etc. is another example.

I disagree here. Currently, Linux and other open source based systems (e.g. Mac OS X, Android) are "winning". It took quite a while, but Windows usage is slowly dwindling.

Quote

Imagine if Hewlet Packard brought out a desktop home fabricator. It would outstrip reprap sales in an instant, would adopt all the best current features and probably a few of its own which they had the finances to develop.

HP _has_ brought out a desktop fabricator and 3D Systems even brought out a very affordable one. So far this apparently doesn't affect RepRap much.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I disagree here. Currently, Linux and other open
> source based systems (e.g. Mac OS X, Android) are
> "winning". It took quite a while, but Windows
> usage is slowly dwindling.

Mac OS is far from being open source based.
And Android is not a desktop OS.
And the number of Windows installations is far far from dwindling.


Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HP _has_ brought out a desktop fabricator and 3D
> Systems even brought out a very affordable one. So
> far this apparently doesn't affect RepRap much.

They are more affordable but still not very affordable. In comparison, at least, and as far as an average joe is concerned.
And especially when you account for the price of consumables as well.

But you are right. Same thing as with the Up!.
It seems to have hit *some* sweet spot, because people like it and it doesn't require _that much_ support and meddling and tweaking to work (again, to an average joe), but it's still not on every desk and in every garage, as i've stated previously. So obviously, the critical price-point / usability level hasn't been reached yet.

Once it does and 3D printing starts spreading exponentially, my belief is RepRap is going to be in a world of pain.
Because big corporations will start seeing it as a threat (assuming RepRap continues evolving and becomes even more accessible).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2012 08:45AM by orcinus.