The death of Thingiverse?

What i keep writing might seem contradictory within itself in some points, so i'll try to summarize my thoughts in a list:

1) RepRap's ability to procreate is currently limited by its target audience
2) RepRap should start thinking about being more consumer-friendly in order to survive the onslaught of commercial 3D printers
3) RepRap as a project should probably have two "branches", one experimental, akin to what it is now, and one stabile, as an outward "consumer-oriented" face
4) RepRap part and kit fabricators should offer experimental as kits and parts and stabile as complete, turn-key kits
5) While all this is coming together, effort should be made to protect the RepRap IP and safeguard it from patent DoS-ing
6) Licences used in the project *should* be enforced (in a defensive manner)

But all of that is just my 2c, based on limited experience and knowledge.
For the most part, i can only sit, watch and hope people with experience and knowledge much greater than mine will do The Right Thing (TM), whatever it is.

> HP _has_ brought out a desktop fabricator and 3D
> Systems even brought out a very affordable one. So
> far this apparently doesn't affect RepRap much.


AFAIK, HP never been very motivated by that new market, and gave up recently. It was not home priced at all (except for those 1% homes we heard about a lot those 2 last years).

3D Systems is trying to get into the end-user market nowadays, but as they are pushing mostly the cubify rather than botmill or rapman I guess but their primary target is not DIYers, so IMO it doesn't threaten the current reprap niche.

Now if they made the cubify open hardware... relax, we know this will never happen

---

Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

I agree with you Orcinus and what a lot of people are failing to see, as a few on this thread are, that what they deem as a non threat to a reprap is only because they are blinded by the hacker mentality and it is the consumer market that will, or at least could, destroy Reprap. Sure, you are still in your basement or garage hacking around with a reprap while your neighbor has his closed source machine printing away and because it is is closed source it has more potential to advance because there will be competition but being closed source more people will put money into that than an open source project. Money begets money.

So, while it is all fine and dandy that some people feel no threat from a closed source cube they should.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

I'd watch out if there were an itunes for 3d purchase. then the right to 3d print becomes restricted fast.

sorry i think i post something in the wrong thread ( was in Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE ).

I was wondering what licence would be perfect for everyone for a thingiverse like website ? ( in better of course .

[creativecommons.org] or another one ?

I'm web developer and thinking hard about building such a thing in an open way ( not being held by any commercial entity) . I believe the price of development and server could easy be paid with simple ads on the website ( no more than thingiverse actually ).

Thanks for your thoughts about that .

ps : if it's interesting for anyone , i can start a separate thread about that for brainstrorming design, name , features..etc .

let's get positive for a change ?

Which of the creative commons licenses? While quite some RepRappers don't like a non-commercial license at all, I consider it to be fairly successful for Generation 7 Electronics: people can copy and tweak as much as they want as long as the result doesn't show up in a shop (or other means of selling something). For commercial matters it comes with a dual license, the commercial one with a moderate fee.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which of the creative commons licenses? While
> quite some RepRappers don't like a non-commercial
> license at all, I consider it to be fairly
> successful for Generation 7 Electronics: people
> can copy and tweak as much as they want as long as
> the result doesn't show up in a shop (or other
> means of selling something). For commercial
> matters it comes with a dual license, the
> commercial one with a moderate fee.
See, that is exactly what someone argued with me about saying I wasn't for open source but I am just not to the point where I have to grab my ankles and let you have your way with me while you make a profit from my hard work where all you did was download my design/model and start selling it. Non commercial, share alike is what I go for. Notice I do not stop derivatives because that means you at least spent some of your time working on it.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

yep ... it is going the path of commercial ... [www.businessweek.com]

Quote

someone argued with me about saying I wasn't for open source

I had such accusations, too, and while they may stir you up you a bit, they're without any substance. If you give away a dollar, some people start argueing on why they should get two.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Does any one else have a slow, sinking feeling?

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

... it's not about sinking, it's about redefining the own standpoint

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> someone argued with me about saying I wasn't for
> open source
>
> I had such accusations, too, and while they may
> stir you up you a bit, they're without any
> substance. If you give away a dollar, some people
> start argueing on why they should get two.

In a perfect utopian world or something like a Picard's Star-Trek Earth where money has no meaning anymore and is simply not used then I wouldn't even worry about a license since everyone would share alike but with money and greed abound you have to dig in and make your stand some place. Mine just happens to be you don't get to make money with a free ride from my sweat.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does any one else have a slow, sinking feeling?

I have this feeling that Thingiverse will eventually go to a paid model or something else but I don't see it staying as it is under the helm of the captain it currently runs under.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Quote
Traumflug
While quite some RepRappers don't like a non-commercial license at all, I consider it to be fairly successful for Generation 7 Electronics: people can copy and tweak as much as they want as long as the result doesn't show up in a shop (or other means of selling something). For commercial matters it comes with a dual license, the commercial one with a moderate fee.

I am being curious about that success story.

Did anyone try to sell some (unlicensed) copies of gen7 already ? If so, how did you resolve it, by simple communication, legal actions, with the help provided by the pressure of "the community" ?


The main issue I'd like to know about is, I'm still not sure whether that license thing legally applies to the design file(s) or the physical object that can be built using it - or both. What did it take you to forbid copycats, just licensing the design files ?

---

Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

Quote

Did anyone try to sell some (unlicensed) copies of gen7 already ?

Not only try ;-) But this wasn't accepted by the community which I appreciate.

Quote

If so, how did you resolve it, by simple communication, legal actions, with the help provided by the pressure of "the community" ?

While putting licenses on design files to protect the hardware they describe is pretty weak from the pure legal standpoint, it's a clear message on the designer's intention. Similar to how Banzi has trademarked the "Arduino" brand without having the means to defend that worldwide. So yes, you can consider the measures to be "pressure" of the community.

If people ask for help - and many do, as IRC and this forum quickly shows - and the typical answer they get is "you shouldn't have bought there", it's unlikely they recommend this vendor to their friends. Word of mouth has a noticeable weight in the RepRap universe.

Quote

I'm still not sure whether that license thing legally applies [...]

Before you make headaches about this question I think you should answer another question first: in case the license applies, can you enforce it? Do you have the money to take this far east company to court to defend a couple of hundred dollars in earnings? Probably not.

In case a competitor ignores your license and is successful with that, you've lost. But so far I'm not aware of many (if any) incidents where they win this way.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

I will say that China is a very bad offender when it concerns stealing of IP and even worse if you think you stand a chance against them in court.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

... Chinese folks thinks different over IP than we do - for a Chinese it's a honour to be copied, as this will elevate him to the level of a 'guru' or teacher of wisdom!

So for them our 'fuzz' about IP's and such isn't a valid point in the game

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Chinese folks thinks different over IP than we
> do - for a Chinese it's a honour to be copied, as
> this will elevate him to the level of a 'guru' or
> teacher of wisdom!
>
> So for them our 'fuzz' about IP's and such isn't a
> valid point in the game



Well, it seems funny that they love to throw us in to the WTO for some of the same stuff they do to the world but honestly we need the world to come together on IP but I doubt China will since they own most of the country I am in. Too bad they can't think outside of the box then we could rip them off and see how they like it (I would love to go into a parallel universe and see them in our shoes and people stealing their IP left and right just to see how they would react).

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
honestly we need the world to come
> together on IP

You are correct. The entire idea needs to be abolished. The idea that anyone person comes up with an idea is complete bull. Everything is just an amalgamation of what we have seen in the past plus some mistakes we have made. Even things like the internet are not new. Thousands of years ago we thought I wish there was a way of communicating long distances. Then some small discoveries allowed us to use radio waves. Then we figured out how to do computations with mechanical machines then we figured out semiconductors, then we built the mechanical computation machines with transistors. Everything is just a small bit added to something else from the past.

If you want to understand this view point check out James Burkes website [www.k-web.org] and his documentary series called "connections". It explains really well how we can only use information that we already have plus a little new when we make mistakes trying to use that old information.

but I doubt China will since they
> own most of the country I am in.

Actually the Rothchild's own your country. They own all but three Countries national banks and control the world through them. They some how claim the world owes them 48 trillion dollars but have nothing to back it since the gold standard was abolished by their handy work.

---

FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

I miss "Connections." So much better than the drivel we have on TV these days.

Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> honestly we need the world to come
> > together on IP
>
> You are correct. The entire idea needs to be
> abolished. The idea that anyone person comes up
> with an idea is complete bull. Everything is just
> an amalgamation of what we have seen in the past
> plus some mistakes we have made. Even things like
> the internet are not new. Thousands of years ago
> we thought I wish there was a way of communicating
> long distances. Then some small discoveries
> allowed us to use radio waves. Then we figured out
> how to do computations with mechanical machines
> then we figured out semiconductors, then we built
> the mechanical computation machines with
> transistors. Everything is just a small bit added
> to something else from the past.
>
> If you want to understand this view point check
> out James Burkes website [www.k-web.org] and
> his documentary series called "connections". It
> explains really well how we can only use
> information that we already have plus a little new
> when we make mistakes trying to use that old
> information.
>
> but I doubt China will since they
> > own most of the country I am in.
>
> Actually the Rothchild's own your country. They
> own all but three Countries national banks and
> control the world through them. They some how
> claim the world owes them 48 trillion dollars but
> have nothing to back it since the gold standard
> was abolished by their handy work.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

I loved Connections and Connections 2 loved them so much I even owned the video game of it.

Sorry Charlie I am not a socialist where no one owns anything so don't bark up that tree with me. Just telling you to stave off fights cause I get fighting mad with that Borg mentality where there is no I only we.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I loved Connections and Connections 2 loved them
> so much I even owned the video game of it.
>
> Sorry Charlie I am not a socialist where no one
> owns anything so don't bark up that tree with me.
> Just telling you to stave off fights cause I get
> fighting mad with that Borg mentality where there
> is no I only we.

That is the capitalist view of socialism and the result of dictatorships posing as Socialism. The true version has never existed and then people like yourself believe Socialism is a dictatorship. Read Socialism.org to see a socialist view of socialism before condemning the idea because of Capitalist Dictatorship Governments posing as Socialist.

---

FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.thingiverse.com]
>
> [www.thingiverse.com]
>
> 3.2 License. You hereby grant, and you represent
> and warrant that you have the right to grant, to
> Company and its affiliates and partners, an
> irrevocable, nonexclusive, royalty-free and fully
> paid, worldwide license to reproduce, distribute,
> publicly display and perform, prepare derivative
> works of, incorporate into other works, and
> otherwise use your User Content, and to grant
> sublicenses of the foregoing, solely for the
> purposes of including your User Content in the
> Site and Services. You agree to irrevocably waive
> (and cause to be waived) any claims and assertions
> of moral rights or attribution with respect to
> your User Content.
>
> Poor show Bre. It was fun while it lasted.
>
> I suppose we can still use it communicate and post
> images our designs. I just pulled all my files
> down. Glad I didn't put the Prism 1.5 files
> up...
>
> Thank goodness for github!


Whats the problem! C'mon. I'm not lawyer but this reads like any other user agreement where if you post something ONLINE you waive any rights to it. In other words, if you post a picture online, because anyone can access it, you grant the whole world rights to see it and reproduce it in any form, or as modified. That's a given fact of the internet and public disclosure in general...

Thus the only thing Thingiverse is saying is that by putting material on their site specifically, they claim such rights. They claim a non-exclusive license, which means it doesn't stop you from charging others if you wish, it only stops you from charging Thingiverse, the company, and the people using the website as they inherit the rights (per the language).

This is identical to google using your emails and voice-to-text to crowd-source and improve voice recognition for others, or to provide more creepily accurate ads tailored to you - all it says is that you can not charge google for the derivative of your materials (i.e., they get a non-exclusive license to use your emails and searches). To me, this is the epitome of the modern connected era. So what?

Sounds to me more like a repeating theme in the community: "Oh crap its going commercial now" "oh its not fully GPL anymore"...So I see this as a projection of that, and if so, would that be at all accurate?

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Chinese folks thinks different over IP than we
> do - for a Chinese it's a honour to be copied, as
> this will elevate him to the level of a 'guru' or
> teacher of wisdom!
>
> So for them our 'fuzz' about IP's and such isn't a
> valid point in the game

You know, Viktor, when I was younger (I'm only 28 now) I was so hell bent on producing a technology milestone, some grand leap in innovation, and patenting the hell out of it and getting rich. As time went on, I realized that "leaps" are super rare and can't usually be worked out as a result of genius, instead most innovation is painstakingly incremental. Though, it is possible to seem like you are making large leaps in innovation with some positive synergy between a few individuals that work together, representing the coming together of disparate fields, and fear-not that their ideas are used by the next person.

In other words, I truly believe an idea is emergent, and if you don't patent it, someone else will a month from now (over and over). The fact that you were first is nice, but really what matters is how many people use it. And that's where usability (practicality, cost, ease, etc) comes in - academics totally ignore it, and reprap fully embraces it.

IMO, its an honor to be copied, more progress for everyone, and you can feed off their progress which started with yours. That's great, I never thought of the Chinese philosophy that way!

---

Measure once, Cut twice, Print 3 times.

Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I loved Connections and Connections 2 loved
> them
> > so much I even owned the video game of it.
> >
> > Sorry Charlie I am not a socialist where no one
> > owns anything so don't bark up that tree with
> me.
> > Just telling you to stave off fights cause I
> get
> > fighting mad with that Borg mentality where
> there
> > is no I only we.
>
> That is the capitalist view of socialism and the
> result of dictatorships posing as Socialism. The
> true version has never existed and then people
> like yourself believe Socialism is a dictatorship.
> Read Socialism.org to see a socialist view of
> socialism before condemning the idea because of
> Capitalist Dictatorship Governments posing as
> Socialist.
I was a socialist but you see you, and I was, a dreamer because Socialism looks good on paper but let man touch it and they corrupt it as they always have and Socialism really is, not on paper but in reality, one step from Communism.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Among Model Railroad fans there is the landmark JMRI Case, only settled in 2010.that
gave Open Source protection against others patenting or copyrighting collective efforts.

I am surprised Thingiverse would not let things stay as this decision went.

[www.decoderpro.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2012 01:25AM by Scrachbuilder.

Hurray! Let's throw around words like socialism, communism, and capitalism without knowing what these words actually mean, or actually,... I donno, picking up a book on the subject, or having any understanding of class divisions or the means of production.
Wheeeee!!!
If socialism is like the Borg what is the federation? You know the federation was a (mostly) communist society right?
Ironically the Borg were probably the closest thing to a pure democracy, they were a collective hive mind,... at least until the queen was introduced (barf!). Both the Federation and the Borg did not have a prominent market economy.

I know exactly what each of the terms means but do you? As far as the collective I am not sure it was ever a democracy since no borg had a single voice hence the queen arrived to give them a singularity. A pure democracy is mob rule basically and the majority always wins and the minority are never heard. This is why the USA chose not to have a democracy but a representative democracy via representatives that were supposed to represent both majority and minority but these days I don't think they do and that is the corruption of this society just like socialism is corrupted and eventually you have what you have in North Korea where one man/family have everything and the populace sit is squalor.

Oh, I know more than you think and that is why I am 100% against socialism, communism, democracy, anarchy, etc... The best system is the one where the little people have as much rights as the big people rich and poor alike. None of this Robin Hood garbage where you take from the wealthy to give to the poor until the wealthy have nothing left to give. Look at France and how the wealthy have begun to put their homes up for sale due to France wanting to tax them 75%. Now this was a month ago news I heard on the BBC so maybe France woke up but look at the EU to see disaster in a policy of taxing the wealthy to pay for the poor it can't work for long.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

The first sentence is the standard boilerplate that everyone uses. Care to explain the second sentence?

I haven't gotten a reasonable one yet, from anyone.



Simba Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> akhlut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > [www.thingiverse.com]
> >
> > [www.thingiverse.com]
> >
> > 3.2 License. You hereby grant, and you
> represent
> > and warrant that you have the right to grant,
> to
> > Company and its affiliates and partners, an
> > irrevocable, nonexclusive, royalty-free and
> fully
> > paid, worldwide license to reproduce,
> distribute,
> > publicly display and perform, prepare
> derivative
> > works of, incorporate into other works, and
> > otherwise use your User Content, and to grant
> > sublicenses of the foregoing, solely for the
> > purposes of including your User Content in the
> > Site and Services. You agree to irrevocably
> waive
> > (and cause to be waived) any claims and
> assertions
> > of moral rights or attribution with respect to
> > your User Content.
> >
> > Poor show Bre. It was fun while it lasted.
> >
> > I suppose we can still use it communicate and
> post
> > images our designs. I just pulled all my files
> > down. Glad I didn't put the Prism 1.5 files
> > up...
> >
> > Thank goodness for github!
>
>
> Whats the problem! C'mon. I'm not lawyer but
> this reads like any other user agreement where if
> you post something ONLINE you waive any rights to
> it. In other words, if you post a picture online,
> because anyone can access it, you grant the whole
> world rights to see it and reproduce it in any
> form, or as modified. That's a given fact of the
> internet and public disclosure in general...
>
> Thus the only thing Thingiverse is saying is that
> by putting material on their site specifically,
> they claim such rights. They claim a
> non-exclusive license, which means it doesn't stop
> you from charging others if you wish, it only
> stops you from charging Thingiverse, the company,
> and the people using the website as they inherit
> the rights (per the language).
>
> This is identical to google using your emails and
> voice-to-text to crowd-source and improve voice
> recognition for others, or to provide more
> creepily accurate ads tailored to you - all it
> says is that you can not charge google for the
> derivative of your materials (i.e., they get a
> non-exclusive license to use your emails and
> searches). To me, this is the epitome of the
> modern connected era. So what?
>
> Sounds to me more like a repeating theme in the
> community: "Oh crap its going commercial now" "oh
> its not fully GPL anymore"...So I see this as a
> projection of that, and if so, would that be at
> all accurate?

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Whenever "west" starts discussing socialism, i make a fresh batch of popcorn, sit and watch