Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 12:09AM
So... Here is what I took from that





Is Replicator 2 closed source?

Answer: Short answer: yes. Long answer: parts of it.

Does Thingiverse Own Your Posted Objects?

Answer: Technically yes; but we won't abuse your trust... If it is still a big deal with the trolling masses next year, we will have a lawyer reword the agreement...




Well.... Umm... Hmmmm....
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 12:29AM
Took him long enough and I don't like what I just read. What exactly I am not sure it is just a bad vibe I am getting like if I walked up to an American politician and said hi. Cold chills down my spine basically and not in a good way either.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 12:36AM
Zach Hoeken, one of the founders of MakerBot (no longer there), gives his perspective: [www.hoektronics.com]
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 12:46AM
Cefiar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zach Hoeken, one of the founders of MakerBot (no
> longer there), gives his perspective:
> [www.hoektronics.com]
> -open-source-a-founder-perspective/
I am sad but I learned to respect my inner instinct and when I get a gut feeling or the hairs on the back of my neck stand up I take notice and sometimes (about 2 or three times in my life) I don't listen to those things (my inner voice so to speak) and I get screwed. Well, not this time and after reading what Zach had to say I must say my inner safety features kicked in and were right. I really believe the corporate thugs (the suits) are now driving Makerbot Industries and they are no longer a part of the open hardware movement unless it is just to take more from it for their own gain.

We must remain vigilant and not allow this to scare anything that is true and good about Open Source Hardware or Software. Forget Makerbot Industries and move on as if they never existed BUT what I want to know is what is Adrian's take since he is, or so I heard, a part of Makerbot Industries. I hope he hasn't turned against Open Source or to welcome it so long as it will help him line his pockets. This is the part I do not know and I am waiting to see what he does when he appears.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 01:19AM
I had heard MakerBot had fallen out of favor with Dr. Bowyer; but only as a rumor.

I read thath Dr. Bowyer invested $25,000 in MakeBot when it started. I don't know their relationship today.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 01:21AM
That is sad but good to hear since I sort of look up to Dr. Bowyer and would hate to think that he got turned too.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 05:10AM
I too left thingiverse for good yesterday.

Hell, I am fighting them directly now.

I've bought the domain openthingie.com last night and I've started developing an STL file sharing community myself.

I stayed up all night to make a 100% PHP based STL file renderer. You can see the rendering engine in action here:

[openthingie.com]

As for now I seek support from all you guys. I am in a dialogue with my home university already in order to ensure that I can get funding for running the website and keep it 100% ad-free and 100% public domain.

What do you guys say? Is this the right way to go?

All the best!
David Pedersen, phd. student, Technical University of Denmark.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2012 05:16AM by volunteerlabrat.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 06:02AM
Great work, volunteerlabrat. What do you think about putting this into the wiki?

I consider the RepRap wiki to be a natural choice to put RepRap-related designs in. As I've heard the wiki software has some limitations, like it doesn't allow to upload STL files. But with some effort, this can be dealt with. There are active people "behind" the wiki.

If there are other parts useful in Thingiverse, missing in the wiki, please speak up!


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 07:08AM
pokey9000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....aaaand Godwin'd.

Hey, don't look at me, I was just trying to expedite the natural evolution of the thread tongue sticking out smiley
It would've gotten there on its own eventually.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2012 07:09AM by orcinus.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 08:32AM
You know what I took away from that blog post?

Bre an the people at MBI need to take a freshman marketing class. What a colossal blunder. And I mean colossal. If you build your business on an ethical principal then compromising on that principal, even if accidentally done and not immediately correcting it will lead to your downfall. It isn't a breach of contract(not so bad), but a breach of trust(really bad). Imagine if habitiat for humanity started building homes for profit. Do you think their business model would survive? No.

What truly astounds me is the nonchalant attitude about the whole thing, and the totally backward reading of the situation.

/*

WE DON'T CARE ABOUT A CLOSED SOURCE MAKERBOT - THEY'RE SHITTY MACHINES ANYWAY.

*/

Their priority should be fixing the ToS on Thingiverse. 2013? Are you serious? By 2013 you won't have a robust community left on Thingiverse, and at that point GAME OVER. If they don't fix it people who create things (us) will go elsewhere. Hell we already are. If MBI can't see that Thingiverse is a primary reason that people purchase a makerbot vs alternative machines then they truly are clueless.

And "lawyer time"? Really Bre? Really? Maybe you need to take freshman microeconomics and financial accounting too. He obviously has no concept of value, especially intangible value. I believe the accountants refer to it as 'goodwill'. Funny, but to me MBI has lost a lot of goodwill in the past two days. But that goodwill has a real-world value! And the amount of goodwill that has been squandered if FAR more than a call in to the lawyer to get clarification on the ToS.

But here's a novel idea - maybe they already did call the lawyer. And and the news from the lawyer was EXACTLY what we fear. And surprise, surprise his VC paymasters won't let him change it (got to protect their investment). Otherwise Bre would be singing from the rooftops about the meaning of the second sentence in 3.2.

Bre - hand over the reigns bud. You need to go back to school. Just think, one more class and you'll be full-time!

It's 8:30 AM and I need a cigarette - and I don't smoke.



Idolcrasher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So... Here is what I took from that
>
>
>
>
>
> Is Replicator 2 closed source?
>
> Answer: Short answer: yes. Long answer: parts of
> it.
>
> Does Thingiverse Own Your Posted Objects?
>
> Answer: Technically yes; but we won't abuse your
> trust... If it is still a big deal with the
> trolling masses next year, we will have a lawyer
> reword the agreement...
>
>
>
>
> Well.... Umm... Hmmmm....


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 21, 2012 09:38AM
I make money out of Makerbot (a small amount) and I make money out of RepRap (a rather larger amount, via RepRapPro Ltd). The tiny percentage of Makerbot that I own means that I have no control over what they do. RepRapPro Ltd (which is run by me, my family, and friends) is completely open-source - that I do have significant control over.

Anyone interested in my views on all this sort of thing may care to see here: http://lists.reprap.org/pipermail/reprap-dev-policy/2011-February/000001.html.


best wishes

Adrian

[reprap.org]
[reprapltd.com]
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 03:18AM
We love you Doctor Bowyer! Thank you for the RepRap project!
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:06AM
Followup on the renderer.

Here a more complex geometry, rotating. Still 100% serverside PHP rendered.

I've tried to implement alpha blending as you will see if you follow this link. However still a bit bogus:

[openthingie.com]

Please note the loading time of a few seconds.This is because my script currently run real-time. Of course, the final implementation will render the STL only once. The animation is an animated gif. Simply because that was the lazy man's approach. I had a gif-animation php class laying about.

I too agree that reprap is a natural place for reprap related stuff, yet I am not convinced it's the ideal place for a new thingie-site. There are SO much going on at places like thingiverse that is not directly related to reprap platform construction and design. Such as laser cutting, and all those whom own a printer not as a primary hobby but just as another tool to fuel a maker-related hobby.

As soon as I am satisfied with the renderer, I will publish the source, so stay tuned.

Any volunteers out-there, that fancy coming up with a template for openthingie.com?
How about volunteers to code some PHP+mySQL?
Any specific feature request for the new open thingie-site?

Finally a plea to help spreading the idea about an alternative thingie-site. Go to [www.thingiverse.com] and press like. :-)

/David

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2012 10:37AM by volunteerlabrat.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:33AM
Thank you, Idolcrasher. And of course your love is reciprocated.

I try to refrain from commenting on many many things here and similar elsewheres - I think that people attach far too much weight to all I say. Most people (certainly including me) have strong opinions about what should, or should not, be done in the world. But I like to remind myself that (again like most people's) my opinions are worth 0. I have no idea what's for the best, and nor does anyone else. Not one among the seven billion.

So I try instead to do something useful: to find out empirical facts and to make logical deductions and to tell people those instead. I like to imagine that that allows me some sort of glimpse of what might happen, as opposed to what I'd like to happen. What I'd like to happen is worthless. But a glimpse of what might happen has, perhaps, a little utility.

But forgetting all that for the moment, can I set a challenge for people who have been reading all these MakerBot-prompted discussions more diligently than I? Can you find a single genuinely new idea in any of them? If you can, I would really be interested to follow the URL.


best wishes

Adrian

[reprap.org]
[reprapltd.com]
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:50AM
Oooh, ah hah
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 02:46PM
Adrian Bowyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Idolcrasher. And of course your love
> is reciprocated.
>
> I try to refrain from commenting on many many
> things here and similar elsewheres - I think that
> people attach far too much weight to all I say.
> Most people (certainly including me) have strong
> opinions about what should, or should not, be done
> in the world. But I like to remind myself that
> (again like most people's) my opinions are worth
> 0. I have no idea what's for the best, and nor
> does anyone else. Not one among the seven
> billion.
>
People opinions are a bit of a funny thing, everyone's got one based on their education and life experience it is biased and weighted in different directions based on their education, goals and available resources, it's the driver behind everyone functioning as human beings, without opinion we as humans would not be where we are today, what interests me more is not what an opinion is but rather how it came to be and how it is maintained as a valid, what gives an opinion value is based on how much evidence and fact it comes from.
to maintain that an opinion is worth 0 in my opinion is a waste

> So I try instead to do something useful: to find
> out empirical facts and to make logical deductions
> and to tell people those instead. I like to
> imagine that that allows me some sort of glimpse
> of what might happen, as opposed to what I'd like
> to happen. What I'd like to happen is worthless.
> But a glimpse of what might happen has, perhaps, a
> little utility.
>
> But forgetting all that for the moment, can I set
> a challenge for people who have been reading all
> these MakerBot-prompted discussions more
> diligently than I? Can you find a single
> genuinely new idea in any of them? If you can, I
> would really be interested to follow the URL.

relative to my opinion not really a new idea, but it is to some: [lists.reprap.org]
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 04:33PM
I don't see any new ideas when I look at the Replicator 2.

They are hiitting hard on many older ideas, but nothing new really.

These guys have some serious brass labeling their new printer as closed source.

People all over the world upload their open source 3D printer designs and techniques onto their web-site, only so they can use those designs and techniques in their "closed source" machines?

Am I imagining things, or is that really what is going on here?

If everyone who participates in the RepRap project is a "developer" could we make a class action lawsuit against them for violating public licenses?
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 06:42PM
Adrian Bowyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Idolcrasher. And of course your love
> is reciprocated.
>
> I try to refrain from commenting on many many
> things here and similar elsewheres - I think that
> people attach far too much weight to all I say.
> Most people (certainly including me) have strong
> opinions about what should, or should not, be done
> in the world. But I like to remind myself that
> (again like most people's) my opinions are worth
> 0. I have no idea what's for the best, and nor
> does anyone else. Not one among the seven
> billion.
>
> So I try instead to do something useful: to find
> out empirical facts and to make logical deductions
> and to tell people those instead. I like to
> imagine that that allows me some sort of glimpse
> of what might happen, as opposed to what I'd like
> to happen. What I'd like to happen is worthless.
> But a glimpse of what might happen has, perhaps, a
> little utility.
>
> But forgetting all that for the moment, can I set
> a challenge for people who have been reading all
> these MakerBot-prompted discussions more
> diligently than I? Can you find a single
> genuinely new idea in any of them? If you can, I
> would really be interested to follow the URL.

There we go this is the sort of thing I expected out of you on here. It is personal like we were having a morning cup of tea at the table not some cold copy and pasted press release that you did yesterday.

As far as your opinion being 0 not a single soul's opinion is worth 0 so I disagree with you there.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:00PM
@DarkAlchemist I think you are confusing Dr. Bowyer with Bre Pettis.

Unless Dr. Bowyer made a press release I did not see somewhere.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:04PM
Oh, you meant this press release

ok, gotchya.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:09PM
Idolcrasher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, you meant this press release
>
> ok, gotchya.

When I see the same response on several threads that means it was a cut and paste job as if doing a press release.

Adrian Bowyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I make money out of Makerbot (a small amount) and
> I make money out of RepRap (a rather larger
> amount, via RepRapPro Ltd). The tiny percentage of
> Makerbot that I own means that I have no control
> over what they do. RepRapPro Ltd (which is run by
> me, my family, and friends) is completely
> open-source - that I do have significant control
> over.
>
> Anyone interested in my views on all this sort of
> thing may care to see here:
> [lists.reprap.org]
> y/2011-February/000001.html.

That is a press release type of response as nothing was personal or an individual response on a per thread basis. That is what I was talking about. The inhuman response more akin to a robot spouting the same message like a stuck needle on a broken record or, what we have come to recognize as, a canned response like a press release.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 10:59PM
Just threw together a blog post on all the current MakerBot Industries / Occupy Thingiverse news.

FabberForge Blog

Let me know if any of my facts aren't straight so I can correct if necessary! Thanks!
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:04PM
Idolcrasher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just threw together a blog post on all the current
> MakerBot Industries / Occupy Thingiverse news.
>
> FabberForge Blog
>
> Let me know if any of my facts aren't straight so
> I can correct if necessary! Thanks!
I like it and it does look to be spot on.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:09PM
You missed the fact that they started getting patents on 3D printing deices last year (thingomatic conveyor belt failure). It may be their work to patent but it also shows how they talk opensource and think CLOSED.


FFF Settings Calculator Gcode post processors Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org Mini Printable Lathe How NOT to install a Pololu driver
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:28PM
@Sublime

Got any sources or links in mind I could reference?
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:30PM
I hate to defend them, and I have no horse in this race but.
At some point they are goings to start impacting businesses like stratsys, with large patent port folios, the only only real defense against a patent suit is a patent portfolio.
I have no real issue with them patenting things, I am more interested in whether the portfolio is used defensively or offensively.
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:32PM
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:42PM
Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @ Idolcrasher
> [patft.uspto.gov]
> O2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-b
> ool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=makerbot&O
> S=makerbot&RS=makerbot

Wait a minute that was applied for but not yet given but isn't that a key feature to all 3d printers? If they are given this patent wouldn't that lead to infringement possibilities for all RepRap type printers?
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:46PM
They were granted it July 24 2012 and No it was a complete failure as a feature and every Thingomatic owner removed it and put in in a drawer because it would allow the prints to warp and move around.


FFF Settings Calculator Gcode post processors Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org Mini Printable Lathe How NOT to install a Pololu driver
Re: Prusa Jr. Chastises & Leaves THINGIVERSE >grinning smiley<
September 22, 2012 11:48PM
Hi all,

Tough topic for 3d printer makers... how to keep paying the bills while staying open source?

I am from 3Dstuffmaker.com - having build Prusa's and other kits and ready to run 3D open source printers.

The idea of open source is that everyone has equal access to open source technology. This also means that no-one can grow to a big size, since everyone else can copy their designs and this keep the company size small- because sales are small... you get a few $ and you spend even more...that is the nature of any start-up company. It is no way to get rich quick!

Makerbot got a big $ injection and now has corporate aspirations. eg they want to be listed on the stock market- which is what $ investors expect. To do this they have to block competitors and look inward rather than open source. That is how the game is played once investors come on board.

So, they now have to keep some of their technology advances secret- so that their business can survive against every other backyard hobby operator.

For example: - The development of the extruder hot end - is extremely difficult.
I should know we have made over 100 designs before we nailed it...
...cause... if I make one for myself I can tweak it to work Ok- but if I sell it to techno-luddites, they won't put up with having to tweak things- they expect it to work out-of the box. And this costs mega $.
We have over 30 people working in our research / factory in India. 1/3 of them is doing development work to make reprap technologies work reliably.


See the problem with reprap- is that there are 100+ ways to do anything- but no critical feedback or Peer review mechanism. So you never know if a "great idea" on reprap is working or not.
From my own experience with reprapr, it is fair to say that reprap is failing members in this regard- because you never know if something works or not. Also reprap members largely do not use scientific evaluation methods- so most technology stuff is not verified by Peer review or even a simple XY listing of results... [ i guess the slap-dash approach is fun for some- but it is also hugely frustrating for others]

So- this brings me to Makerbot- 3Dstuffmaker and many other hopefuls that try to make a living form open source...

3Dstuffmaker say: eg our Prusa Explorer- is our version of a Prusa- with parts and tweaks that make it work better [that is not to say that anyone could not do the same with there own varient/version- but remember , we have to make the gear work for real customers that get cheesed off- if they have to tweak stuff. They expect perfection!].

So what happens it that many reprappers follow companies like Makerbot and 3Dstuffmaker's advances and then upgrade their own units gradually- because reprap.org can not sort great- from dead-end technology ideas.
So gradually, people get attached to one company or other, and get upset when that companies outgrows reprap... and goes closed source, to grow their business.

From my own experience, opensource is the right way to go... but it is a very fine line to walk... between advancing open source and failing to run it as a business... and if I fail to find a workable solution, 30 odd young Indian techo's loose their livelihoods. So the stakes for me are high because I regard giving people work, especially work that can help eliminate poverty trough open source technologies, as one of the most important things anyone can do.
I like the benefits that table-top manufacturing can bring to humanity. Check out my thoughts @ economicsatyagraha.com or economicsatyagraha- on wiser earth- if this social aspect interests you...

Our users have asked for a 3D community for some months and we have developed some solutions- which will roll out in the near future...

[3dstuffmaker.com] - this is our current test site.

3Dstuffshare community - almost works- bar a few tweaks...

Let's keep the ball rolling on open source discussions... and idea sharing...

Best regards
Rob
-o-o-
robioptic@yahoo.com
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