Prices of repraps today?

After reading a few articles about the plummeting prices of 3d printing and how it will never take over, or cause a paradigm shift but NOT via your garage (there will be a shift but more of a pick your item and it gets printed the way you want and shipped to you type of change), I started to dig (depressed over the articles because they said what I said on here a while back about all of this) to see what price changes had occurred in the last six months. I am a tad shocked that I don't see it and I still don't see the Smoothieboard as being released yet.

Now the good points in the articles said that the prices should come down to 150 dollars at a Wal-Mart black Friday sale within the next couple to a few years.

One thing one of the articles pointed out is that 2d printers are so cheap now ($19.99 on Black Friday this year at Wal-Mart) that everyone has one but most people do not even use theirs much these days AND that is exactly what will happen to the 3d printer market. People will one off or have a ton of useless knickknacks/bric-a-brac but when quality is needed they will just go online and have someone else do it for them that has the quality BIG machines and they will wait for the quality part to be sent to them. This is sort of like going to the kiosk machine and printing your photos there instead of printing at home as used to be done (it has better quality paper and print and costs less in the long run).

The one thing that all of the articles did state is that this will remain in the hands of the tinkerers and hackers which I am so I will ask what is currently the least expensive 20cmx20cmx20cm printing surface with hotbed out there? Kit form or already built as I am seeing the same prices I saw a year ago out there which means we must have flat lined or something.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

... here's a more actual list: [www.3ders.org]

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

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One thing one of the articles pointed out is that 2d printers are so cheap now ($19.99 on Black Friday this year at Wal-Mart) ...

Careful with this comparison - 2D printer prices are heavily subsidized by overpriced ink refills. In other words, you pay less for the hardware but pay more for the consumables, and over time you end up paying more overall. This is a terrible business model that pisses of consumers and destroys customer loyalty. Suggesting, even obliquely by way of price comparison, that RepRap should move to this pricing model, is a terrible thing to say.

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...what is currently the least expensive 20cmx20cmx20cm printing surface with hotbed out there?

The Prusa designed heatbed can be had for approx $30-$40 I think, and has approximately that print area. Put a piece of $2 picture frame glass over it, and there you go. You could probably go cheaper by building your own bed from a plate of AL and power resistors, but it probably won't be much cheaper, the reliability will probably initially suck, and the heating will be uneven until you dial in the location of the resistors.

Crispy, that came from one of the articles I read not something I would wish on anyone. Hell, it pisses me off what the modern printers have done that I no longer own one and the wife hasn't used hers in a year now due to that nonsense.

One of the largest things I wish there was a law against is that the ink cartridges have built in timers (they used to not) and even if your ink is full the timer will say to replace them and refuse to use them. Pffft, and besides the 2D printers are so cheap now I personally would rather buy a printer than the ink since it would be cheaper doing that even if the ink that was included in it was 1/4 full. This is why I mentioned that people have went to the kiosks to print their photos since, something I was meaning to say but most people already know, the damn ink is so over priced now.

Thanks to you both for the help and any word on what is happening with the Smoothieboard?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2012 11:23AM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Smoothieboards are being packaged for shipment as we speak last I heard, which was yesterday.

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-Tom

Yep, someone in the irc said the first batch was about to go out.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

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2D printer prices are heavily subsidized by overpriced ink refills.

The same will happen with 3D printers. And it'll be less than trivial to re-fill the cartridges if you have a printer which can run one temperature only, its firmware expects specific print material properties.

Some people say, RepRap is about cheap printers. Maybe it currently is, but undoubtly this won't last forever. I expect the first bulk 3D printer next year.

For my part I see a RepRap future in the hacker/tinkerer/modder scene. That's why I put emphasis on do-it-yourselfable designs instead of the next round of "batch" electronics.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

... and this too is why I'm more focussed on fusing powders - with a spot of light (or heat) of some 10 microns (lasers) to mm's (concentrated sun-light) and meltable powders (grinded plastics, sand, ...) you're nearly unlimited

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

@ VDX: I agree.

Fused powder offers a far better supply and spectrum of materials than FFF or photopolymers ever will. The rotomolding industry saw to that. I have a Panasonic Automatic soldering machine that I purchased used at an industrial auction for only $25. It used a remote fiberoptic feed with lenses to maximize the heat focused on one point. It was good enough to melt solder, so I was going to try it for Rotomolding powdered HDPE, PP, and ABS when I get the time. The lack of support problems will be a benefit to fused powdered systems as well as the much lower cost per lb of material. When combined with a heated chamber, you could make very large (by today's standards) stress free parts. The ability to impregnate the material with high concentrations of other materials also makes it quite attractive. The downside, is cleanup of powder, not as messy as photopolymers (unless you a fan blowing), but more messy than simple FFF filament.

@VDX:

Question is: Will you design a VDX90?

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Detlef

Excalibur Hotend

reprapclean32.png

reprapzone.blogspot.de

... maybe

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

3D technology is in it's infantcy and is far too complicated for anybody other than technically minded individuals to use at this time. Mass produced inkjet printers are easy to hook up to your computer and print from, and word processors are easy to use. 3D printers require a huge investment in electro/mechanical/firm and software knowledge and there is not much training available. They are also very dangerous machines to operate and won't be in the average persons home any time soon. I had a thermistor "fall" out of my hot end because it was one I bought from China and was only taped in not long ago, and even though my firmware was set to cut out in such an event, my hot end got up to 350 plus degrees and the ABS plastic almost caught fire. I'd come to trust it and only noticed when the smoke drifted upstairs and my dog alerted me. ABS plasic on fire would have been an inferno. Until a big outfit like Hp, or similar can make them safe, you won't see anything really commercial except for the small companies (individuals) who don't care about that sort of thing.

As for 2d printers, take it from a guy who's serviced them for 35 years. Inkjets make better quality images, but cost a fortune to operate. Lasers cost more up front, but they last forever and are easy and cheap to refill. They're a different quality, but how perfect does a text document need to be? Buying an inkjet for text documents is a waste of money and a laser is much much cheaper.

Tekwizard Wrote:
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> 3D technology is in it's infantcy and is far too
> complicated for anybody other than technically
> minded individuals to use at this time. Mass
> produced inkjet printers are easy to hook up to
> your computer and print from, and word processors
> are easy to use. 3D printers require a huge
> investment in electro/mechanical/firm and software
> knowledge and there is not much training
> available. They are also very dangerous machines
> to operate and won't be in the average persons
> home any time soon. I had a thermistor "fall" out
> of my hot end because it was one I bought from
> China and was only taped in not long ago, and even
> though my firmware was set to cut out in such an
> event, my hot end got up to 350 plus degrees and
> the ABS plastic almost caught fire. I'd come to
> trust it and only noticed when the smoke drifted
> upstairs and my dog alerted me. ABS plasic on fire
> would have been an inferno. Until a big outfit
> like Hp, or similar can make them safe, you won't
> see anything really commercial except for the
> small companies (individuals) who don't care about
> that sort of thing.
>

I agree with you and until they can make it as simple, and hands off, to run as an Inkjet printer I just don't think it will take off. When I say simple I mean they do not have to loop a filament into anything it would use a tank type system where you push it in and it does everything on its own EVEN if that were filament.

The problem comes in from the fire potential imo.

> As for 2d printers, take it from a guy who's
> serviced them for 35 years. Inkjets make better
> quality images, but cost a fortune to operate.
> Lasers cost more up front, but they last forever
> and are easy and cheap to refill. They're a
> different quality, but how perfect does a text
> document need to be? Buying an inkjet for text
> documents is a waste of money and a laser is much
> much cheaper.
Take it for an old IT tech who stood over your profession's shoulder watching you work and making the drudge work go by with a smile on their face...I know *BUT* the electrical bill is through the roof for that laser printer too. Page for page the laser might cost you more where the electrical costs are 11-40 cents per KWh due to how many amps (average of 10amps) they take. 10amp*120vac=1200 watts @11-40 cents per KWh. Inkjet printers average about .5amps but can go as high as 1amp. So, 1/10 the electrical cost.

Used to I would totally agree with you on cost but with the electrical costs rising so quickly around the globe I am not so sure anymore. I still remember the days when the copier at work had to have its own circuit and it would still dim the light for a split second first thing in the morning.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 05:41AM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

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10amp*120vac=1200 watts @11-40 cents per KWh.

Modern laser printers can print something like 10 pages per minute (bigger ones much more). So that's 1.2 kW * 40 cents/kWh / 600 prints = 0.08 cents/page. Not exactly much. And the average power consumtion is lower, because these 1200 watts are required to heat up the hot zone only, using much less once this reached temperature.

FFF/FDM based 3D printers use something like 5 amps at 12V = 60 watts on average. So you can print at 40 cents * 0.06 = 2.4 cents/hour. And nobody stops you from hooking up a photovoltaic panel, making this cheaper long term.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Thanks for the numbers as I only knew some of them and I do agree I always prefered a laser printer for everything except dpi.

Could you tell me, or do you know, the maintenance cost on one as the laser printers I used to work around needed contracts as no consumer would ever be able to work on them (Joe and Jane Sixpack). For an inkjet printer they just throw them away (saddens me).

edit: Your numbers for the 3d printer are not quite right because 5amps at 12 volts is not 5amps at 120vdc which is what is measured by the meter. Still, very very low though.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2012 10:18AM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

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edit: Your numbers for the 3d printer are not quite right because 5amps at 12 volts is not 5amps at 120vdc which is what is measured by the meter.

They are right, because you pay the electricity bill not by amps, but by watts. And 60 watts used on a 12V source is the same amount of electricity as 60 watts gotten from a 120V outlet. I left out the losses of voltage conversion and a lot of other smaller figures, though.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

I meant also no power supply is 100% (I wish but no dice) [edited] basically everything in the computer world goes by amps (like harddrives) so it confuses the issues. Watts used is watts used regardless of where though a PSU is never 100% efficient so it gets a little confusing.

For instance my system takes 240 watts at full cranking from the 120vdc line which is 2 amps but a hard drive typically takes 1 amp by itself, or more, but they are not equal since one is at 120v and the other is at 12v.

Anyway you are right about the watts and I wish everyone used that instead om amps.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2012 01:54PM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

OK. Printing doesn't cost 2.4 cents/hour, but 2.526 cents/hour.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
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> 5 amps at 12 volts is 60watts.
> 60watts/120Vac is .5 watts (half a watt)

You mean 0.5 Amps, right?

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NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 5 amps at 12 volts is 60watts.
> > 60watts/120Vac is .5 watts (half a watt)
>
> You mean 0.5 Amps, right?

Good catch so I edited my post.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

I don t understand why this machine has been given the name of "3D Printer". If the name was correctly chosed, we wouldn't t have such subjects to discuss. If we want to compare old and new technology, than please compare them based on their purpose or function and not based on their names.

To make fast and clear, look to the definition of the two "Printers" at Wikipedia:

2D Printer

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In computing, a printer is a peripheral which produces a representation of an electronic document on physical media such as paper or transparency film.

3D Printer

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Additive manufacturing or "3D printing" is a process of making three dimensional solid objects from a digital model. 3D printing is achieved using additive processes, where an object is created by laying down successive layers of material.

The only property that both machines share is the "wrong" name and some similarity in software. But the product of these machines is completely different. With a 2D printer you can t produce a solid object and with a "3D printer" you can t print a document (at least not yet).

If today people don t print so much as before, it s because of the Internet and modern communications networks AND because they learned to use the network. Nothing else. Take the network down, and you will see how much people will then print and use the old post to communicate.

3D printers could become useless in the future, if we find a better technology than what we have now, like in Star Trek, where the replicator is a machine capable of creating (and recycling) objects. This machine can create any inanimate matter, as long as the desired molecular structure is on file....There is also a "3D-Printer" in Star Trek, it is the holo-technology. Combined together you have the holosweet, where holo objects becomes solid and moving controlled by the computer.

To avoid comparing apples to oranges in future, we should better use another name for 3D Printers like: Additive manufacturing device (AMD). And use the name 3D printer for methods of applying a 2-D image on a 3-D surface, see pad printing. For methods of printing 2-D parallax stereograms that seem 3-D to the eye, see lenticular printing and holography.

zac

Zacbot, it is Holosuite and besides you are freaking splitting hairs PLUS don't tell the world what to call something because you are out numbered and will lose the fight. It is better to use your energy on something else that will result in a change for sure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2012 02:30PM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Thank you for your advice and spell checking! I write in 4 languages everyday and it is not always correct and sometimes people get angry....

But I am not fighting and will not. I wasn t talking to you neither. Sorry if you understood this also the wrong way. If you read the text carefuly without emotions, you will see, that I begun with asking a question:

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I don t understand why this machine has been given the name of "3D Printer"

Unless you are the one who gave this name to this machine, please ignore the whole text if it makes you angry.

Concerning your last advice, please tell me where should I better invest my energy? Do you have ideas where I could help?

Today I spent some hours debuging the firmware and published my work. So I thought I could do something else...

I am not angry I am just saying that you can't change it. Once the people have latched on to something, and the media runs with it, you just can't stop that train so why bother?

As far as investing energy I used to say politics to make a change local because, as the old saying goes, all politics are local but after this election in the USA and seeing what has, and is, happening in the world I no longer say that because none of us can change it without bloodshed.

So, try and help the environment by letting people see how low your bills are due to the alternative energy you are using. We call that "sticking it to the man". I plan on removing myself from the grid before I die and it isn't as hard as it sounds though some cities in the USA do not allow you to not have power from the man. So, in that case, you still use your alternative energy and run the meter backwards or simply flip the big breaker and only pay whatever your minimum is. Basically use your positive helpful energy in trying to make a change for the world to be a better place. Additive processes is a good place to begin but until we have replicators I am not 100% sold on them since the world doesn't need more plastic junk ending up in big holes (landfills).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2012 03:53PM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Good to hear that. Now I understand what you mean.

I understand that an Additive manufacturing device is a well known machine in the US but this is not the case in Europe or Africa...or ....That s why I said this, I think it is not too late for the other continents...The Other reason is that, because it is very new here, when people ask me what I am building and I say "a 3D printer that prints solid things" they laugh because it sounds stupid. The word "Print" means "Print" and not manufacture, at least in German and French...so I always have to show a video, so they can believe it.

I stopped publishing my political points of views cause at the end, I only get banned and understood that the people who are controlling the world, knows what is good and what is not. But they keep doing business as usual. As long as it is good for them, they will continue. We can write what we want, it won t change.

Then I decided to be independent (self-sufficiency) and work hard for this goal. Far away from any civilization. I started with the energy problem, solar, wind etc...most of these machines that produce energy could be self manufactured and there is enough how to out there. That s why I turned to CNC-Machines, then 3D CNC-Machines and at the end I discovered the Additive manufacturing device :-)

As you see, I didn't saw it on TV or heard about it, no, I was looking for it. Even it is not exactly what I am looking for, but it is a cheap way to learn CNC related stuff. A CNC Machine will be the next step after I have build my first Reprap.

To cut a long story short, I think we are all on a similar track in the reprap world and we know what is behind this technology, and they know it, they can t stop it but they will try to retard it.

... hmm ...

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I understand that an Additive manufacturing device is a well known machine in the US but this is not the case in Europe or Africa...or ....That s why I said this, I think it is not too late for the other continents...

Here in Germany it's known since maybe the 80-ies ...

Search for 'LOM-printing' (LOM = LaminatedObjectManufacturing) - this was a much simpler methode for creating 3D-objects made from laminated sheets of paper, cut with a knife or with a CO2-laser ... but around 1996 replaced by the Stereolitho- or SLA-technique, propagated by 3DSystems ... and forced by customers too, because the '3D-printed' parts were more smooth and translucent looking than the wood-like finish of the LOM-parts ...

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

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Here in Germany it's known since maybe the 80-ies ...

I have searched, and found that the first commercial Laminated Object Manufacturing (LOM) system was shipped in 1991. LOM was developed by Helisys of Torrance, CA.

Source: [www.custompartnet.com]

But this is another kind of machine, it is big one and something too industrial....a bit oversized for (self-sufficiency purposes)

Thanks for the hint, I did not know about it too !! This is all new for me!

><

... for me this all started around 1985 with my first Isel-CNC-mill, for which I had to write the drivers and a 2.5D-CAD-program on Atari ST, as the available drivers and programs were only available for IBM-PC's

In '86 I've laminated my first architectural models from milled sheets of plastic and around '89 I've build my first Laserplotter with a 1.5Watt-CO2-laser cutting and laminating adhesive paper and plastic sheets ... made this comercial between 1992-96 ...

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Yes, and I read something while I was searching around that net that startled me. Now this was on a military veterans blog(?) and forum and it was about "3d printing" and in 2007 the patent was filed to stop us. They gave the patent number and the paragraph (article, etc...) article number etc... that said you could not (I forgot the exact wording but it was saying printing but in legal terminology) print prosthetics, food, etc... due to that patent. The military veterans forum said this means, at least in the USA, that when the VA turns you down you can't go run off and print your own prosthetic limb.

So, as you can see they already started and the article/writeup said the patent was filed as sort of a DRM against this new technology since we have seen intellectual properties stolen via (insert sources from video tapes, internet file sharing, to recordable DVD/Blu-Ray) and this time they were heading us off from doing that. Funny thing is Thingiverse exists and I must confess that I do not believe in IP if, and only if, that IP were to be given out freely it would help someone, or even the world.

So, we are being stripped down to only being able to print what we design and with that attitude this technology is dead since most people are not of the mindset (this is not a negative as some are technically minded while others are artistic while some can do both) or have the ability to create something.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2012 06:34PM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

... so best way to avoid any trouble and go with it would be creating local 'networks' of individuals capable and interested in 3D-printing, CAD, electronics, hardware and all related areas.

Adrian started his RepRap-idea as a sort of 'viral outspread', so anyone interested in 3D-printing will get a real chance to do so on his own

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]