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Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole

Posted by anode505 
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 28, 2012 11:02AM
It is academic in the sense that Defense Distributed will never be able to print out any useful gun parts. That is a red herring. They are living in cloud cuckoo land, both political and engineering, where guns are magic talismans warding off evil, and printed parts can withstand 50,000 psi.

However, as amply illustrated above, for a lot of people in the gun debate facts are irrelevant, it is all about perception. It is the noise made by Defense Distributed which is leading to legislators to call for a "ban" on 3D printed weapons. (You can't really ban something that doesn't exist, but it's the perception again). If people in the maker community like Makerbot exercise sensible self-restraint (like we are told sensible gun-owners do), then *perhaps* it will ward off attempts to clamp down on the vast majority of uses for 3d printing which have nothing to do with weapons.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 28, 2012 11:14AM
foshon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps you should research the words of Americas
> founders a little more. The fact is that NONE of
> my firearms have harmed anyone. It is my daily
> prayer that they never will. Your arguement
> contsitutes jackassery in its finest form. Take a
> look at oathkeepers.com, you truely think our sons
> and duaghters would kill us. You sir are most
> likely to be the 30% that sits by the sides and
> does nothing as others fight for you.

You see, that is the typically emotive, irrational and antagonistic reponse which persuades me that people should not be allowed to own guns.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 28, 2012 05:37PM
Quote
They are living in cloud cuckoo land, both political and engineering, where guns are magic talismans warding off evil, and printed parts can withstand 50,000 psi.

Exactly what I was saying somewhere in this thread. I won't be surprised when someone blows their hand off or something by firing their printed gun. Even if they somehow manage to fabricate a working 100% plastic gun, the print quality is way too variable between printers, so a firearm that might work for one will kill the next.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 28, 2012 08:24PM
akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @ foshon: Where do criminals get guns?
>
> foshon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Jasper1984 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Did i mention that gun owners claim to hold
> > > weapons against the possibility of tyranny,
> but
> > do
> > > nothing politicallu against the US' oversized
> > > army?
> > >
> > > Also, really, dont let guns overshadow the
> > social
> > > and psychological conditions and problems
> > > associated with shooting events. The guns are
> a
> > > currently unfixable problem anyway.
> >
> > You're right and that is what pisses me off
> about
> > whole "blame the guns" attitude. This boy, like
> so
> > many others, was troubled. His mother failed
> those
> > parents/children by thinking she could handle
> the
> > situation herself. Who gives access to guns to
> a
> > boy that you can't turn your back on? The issue
> is
> > the complete taboo surrounding mental health in
> > this country.
> >
> > The average gun owner locks their firearms up,
> > besides having something "on hand" for family
> > protection. With the head case in the house one
> > would think it would be a priority.


On the black market. Almost all legally owned guns in america are registered to an owner which is why they are almost never used in crimes. When legally registered guns are used in crimes they usually have been used by someone who got them through illegal means (ie. stole it from a friend or family member).

I live in Chicago and just today we hit 500 homicides for the year. Chicago has historically had some of the most restrictive hand gun laws in America. Because of this, law abiding citizens have been unable to protect themselves and the criminals have knowingly capitalized on this. I have friends who work in law enforcement and I work in an industry where I regularly deal with people from the full spectrum of the world. Restricting guns in america just punishes law abiding citizens. Anyone who thinks that a person who is willing to shot you just to steal your shoes, car, cash, watch, etc. is going to think twice because it's illegal is not dealing with reality. Cypress Hill - Here is something you can't understand is the perfect song for explaining why so many people just don't get it.

uGen - I don't know how it is where you are from but what you describe is evidence of a horrible crime and should be used to convict any person who commits those crimes. I don't know how you would view such things as being related but if you feel that those subjects belong in the same discussion then we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 28, 2012 08:44PM
Quote
On the black market. Almost all legally owned guns in america are registered to an owner which is why they are almost never used in crimes. When legally registered guns are used in crimes they usually have been used by someone who got them through illegal means (ie. stole it from a friend or family member).

Isn't this exactly the point? If there were fewer guns available for the criminals to steal in the first place, there would be less firearm related crimes (also works well for other countries winking smiley ). However, I see the point that now that there are a lot of illegally owned guns in circulation, it is not an easy situation with an easy solution anymore.
But to be honest, do you really expect a normally peaceful citizen to react right in a threatening situation? Guns as I see it do not only act as a deterrent, but can also escalate the situation catastrophically.

Quote
uGen - I don't know how it is where you are from but what you describe is evidence of a horrible crime and should be used to convict any person who commits those crimes. I don't know how you would view such things as being related but if you feel that those subjects belong in the same discussion then we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you are getting at. What is a horrible crime? Surely not that someone gets the idea that a home-printed gun could in any way be expected functional and injures themself in trying that gun out? That would be pure foolishness and irresponsibility by both the uploader and the one who fires that printed weapon.
After all, the whole discussion started about Thingiverse taking firearm-related files down, but quickly focused on guns in general.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2012 08:45PM by uGen.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 28, 2012 09:16PM
uGen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> Do you consider banning and taking down child
> pornography and snuff videos censoring?
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 29, 2012 03:34AM
Ah, I see. Didn't expect you to refer to a post one page earlier.
I admit, this is a classic example of an ad absurdum. I was a little bit annoyed by people flinging the word "censoring" around until it becomes quite meaningless.
What would be next? Racists or Neonazis demanding that their ideology be freely spread (here in Germany, this is a very sensitive topic actually)? If everyone cries censorship about anything, the whole affair gets a little bit ridiculous.

There are regulations on objects and information to protect citizens from (further / prospective) harm and from crimes to be faciliated. For example, if my information is correct, sales of alcoholic beverages to minors is heavily regulated in the US. Or how there are bans on dangerous materials like explosives or weapons etc. So, if we take this back to the discussion, I think Thingiverse did the right thing.
What is worrisome about the whole printed guns affair is not that law-abiding citizens get access to yet another firearm as there are enough cheap and proven weapons available to many citizens of the US. It is more that people with ill intentions gain another method of causing harm. And also, seeing some documentary videos, I am led to believe that a lot of minors in the US get access to firearms (some are not even 10 years old). What if they get the idea that any printed firearm that their printer (let's say in 5+ years, this commercial home 3D printing becomes a reality) put out might work and get severely injured? This of course applies not only to minors, of course (and yeah, there are enough people who would try this, I am 100% sure of that).
I hope my over the top comment makes a little bit more sense now.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 29, 2012 09:24AM
Very interesting discussion that has almost nothing to do with 3D Printing. smiling smiley

Have any of you gun control lobbyists considered the simple fact that those guns were STOLEN from their rightful owner before they were used? The mother owned them legally and I haven't read anything about her using them illegally.

Her son stole them from her and used them against their rightful owner, then continued to mow down a couple of dozen people with them.

You want to continue to pass laws and impose controls but you forget one very important point: Laws and rules only affect those who follow them. People who are willing to break the law are not going to care where they get their guns and they are STILL GOING TO GET THEM.

The difference will be that everyone else will be left without a comparable means of protecting themselves and their property.

For those of you who blindly feel that the ballot box is the only way to control a government ask one of a countless number of people who have been bullied, attacked, harassed or otherwise intimidated by the ones supposedly hired to protect them (local police) if they were offered an option to vote out their oppressors. Ask the protestors at Kent State how much the National Guard cared about their votes. Of course I mean the ones that weren't shot that day.

The founders saw some common themes in society after society and attempted (pretty damn well I think) to obviate the most common techniques of tyrannical control in the constitution. Then in the bill of rights we tried to include ones they'd missed. The first and most basic premise was this: All rights are inherent granted by virtue of the fact that we are human beings and the US government (supposedly) has the ability to control only certain actions and limit only certain things.

If you consider this then the 'there ought to be a law' types need to rethink the fact that in many cases criminals are already breaking layer upon layer of laws that are already in place. So how is adding more laws going to affect them at all? The only ones it will control are the ones who are following the laws already in place.

Quote
Ayn Rand
The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.


Control is the key here. If criminals are the only ones with guns, then we're ALL in trouble. If the military or the police are the only ones with the power, then someone only needs to take control of the military to control all of the power.

Think people. The number of people who have done this (going postal is the term we used to use) is so infinitesimally small when compared to all of the other ills of society that can be handled, it's just not something that makes any sense. 'Going postal' is a symptom, not the problem. It is tragic. It is heart wrenching. It is something I can't even fathom on a personal level. But it's not preventable, especially by trying to remove a certain type of weapon or bullet or means. How many have done it with a sniper rifle or manure bomb or even a hammer for crying out loud?

If you think that any government can control 100% of the means of performing this kind of act you are woefully misled. Think about it. If someone walked out on a crowded city street with a sword (still technically legal to own) and started swinging it around he or she could probably kill the same number of people as this deranged lunatic did. Your heartfelt knee jerk reactions to this one case notwithstanding, this kind of thing can never be prevented from happening.

The illness is what needs to be cured, and until someone demonstrates some kind of sign that he or she is capable of something like this, I don't think there's any way to deal with it in the large scale without completely impinging on the rights of millions of Americans who have given absolutely no indication that they will snap.

Quote
Ayn Rand
Potentially, a government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 29, 2012 05:57PM
wow u american seem to have lots of problems.
no one is going to give up there guns because you don't feel safe from a) criminals and b) the government.
seems you need to fix things from the bottom up - address why people as so poor and hopeless to take to crime and drugs.
address public health to give people the medicines the need.
your rich are getting richer (how did 50% percent of the population vote for someone who paid 12.1% on an income of $13.9 million)
and your poor are getting poorer.
i think it is bad to be in a society full of guns (would prefer to stand off against a man with o sword or a hammer than a gun kill 12 people in 15 seconds) but can understand your concerns.
and that is just a) the criminals.
as for b) the government. sorry can't relate to that.


Prusa 'Explorer' (3dStuffMaker), GEN6, J-head Mk III-B, Bowden Extruder, Marlin 1.0.0 RC2, Repitier-Host V0.84 and Slic3r 0.9.8, PLA. Live at Victoria, Australia.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 29, 2012 06:48PM
uGen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, I see. Didn't expect you to refer to a post
> one page earlier.
> I admit, this is a classic example of an ad
> absurdum. I was a little bit annoyed by people
> flinging the word "censoring" around until it
> becomes quite meaningless.
> What would be next? Racists or Neonazis demanding
> that their ideology be freely spread (here in
> Germany, this is a very sensitive topic actually)?
> If everyone cries censorship about anything, the
> whole affair gets a little bit ridiculous.
>
> There are regulations on objects and information
> to protect citizens from (further / prospective)
> harm and from crimes to be faciliated. For
> example, if my information is correct, sales of
> alcoholic beverages to minors is heavily regulated
> in the US. Or how there are bans on dangerous
> materials like explosives or weapons etc. So, if
> we take this back to the discussion, I think
> Thingiverse did the right thing.
> What is worrisome about the whole printed guns
> affair is not that law-abiding citizens get access
> to yet another firearm as there are enough cheap
> and proven weapons available to many citizens of
> the US. It is more that people with ill intentions
> gain another method of causing harm. And also,
> seeing some documentary videos, I am led to
> believe that a lot of minors in the US get access
> to firearms (some are not even 10 years old). What
> if they get the idea that any printed firearm that
> their printer (let's say in 5+ years, this
> commercial home 3D printing becomes a reality) put
> out might work and get severely injured? This of
> course applies not only to minors, of course (and
> yeah, there are enough people who would try this,
> I am 100% sure of that).
> I hope my over the top comment makes a little bit
> more sense now.

I had a great long post and I lost it sad smiley

uGen It is true that Europeans and Americans view speech differently. I have friends from all over the world and I have traveled to Europe twice. Europeans believe that there are some topics that should not be discussed due to the dangers they posses. Americans believe that all topics should be protected even at the cost of letting a few extremists have a voice, for fear of being oppressed. Europeans trust their governments more and I believe they have governments that can be trusted more. America is based on the belief that governments should never be trusted and if problems arise the people have the power to change it. Ad absurdum can be effective when used sparingly. Unfortunately, it's constantly being used to be politically derisive in the US and it is driving everybody to extremes. It drives me up the wall as it preys on our childish schoolyard selves and Americans don't see it anymore. I long for the day that Americans realize that what is important is our similarities, of which there are many, not our differences, of which their are few. I'm all about discussing politics, ideas and just about any topic if we can keep it civil, I just find that it's hard to find others who feel the same online these days.

Here is the absolute truth about 3D printed guns. The genie is out of the bottle. You can never put it back in. What can we do to prepare society and people for this inevitable future? Education and social responsibility are the tack I recommend but if someone has a better idea I am all ears. I am sure there are aspects of this problem that I have not taken into account and would love to hear some more view points. I think this is a very important topic that we need to talk about in the 3D printing community. One day, when I have kids, I am going to have to talk about 3D printed guns with them.

While typing this I also thing I need to point out another problem that we have not brought up. This will most likely affect countries where gun control is currently very strict more then the US which is used to dealing with guns. We are focusing on America because of recent tragedies. Once criminals in Europe start 3D printing guns, Europeans will have some serious problems on their hands. 3D printing guns will be much easier then the black market or traveling to Russia to buy guns. What will the bobbies in London do? What about the rest of Europe, the Middle East, South America or Africa?

There are even more aspects the the issues at hand but I don't want to share them as I would like to slow down the progress 3D printed guns. I don't want to stop or prevent them, just slow them down so people can make well thought out decisions on how to handle things. I have no problems with guns and enjoy shooting them on the rare occasion, I just wish it wasn't one of the first things we were trying to make with this amazing technology. I want to use it for so much more which is why I started www.zatopa.com.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 29, 2012 07:07PM
I was born and grew up in the UK, moved to the states 20 years ago.
Availability means that guns are involved in almost all "violent" crime in the US.
In the UK it's very different, only serious crime tends to involve weapons, and not for lack of availability, if you really want an illegal gun in the UK, you can buy one relatively easily. But because their use is rare, authorities actually enforce the gun laws actively, I don't think 3d printed guns change any of that.
The issue I have with guns being readily available, is that it allows otherwise none fatal situations to quickly escalate.

There is no way the American people could overthrow the American government with guns, so that argument is moot IMO.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 12:00AM
@ Polygonhell

You seem awfully certain that an American civilian force could not overthrow the US government with the weapons currently in the US. Considering that the largest and most advanced military coalition in human history was basically stymied for a decade by a small group using high school level chemistry and the Afghani equivalent to Radio Shack, I have to question how you can be so certain.

You may think that the 2nd Amendment is archaic, outdated, and totally pointless. However, approximately half of the US population disagrees with you, and of them, a pretty large portion is fully willing to shoot somebody in defense of it.

We’ve already seen that partial bans are stupid and don’t do anything, so unless one is merely a hypocrite more interested in style rather than results, the only way to achieve the goal of zero mass shootings (not mass killings -- those will still go on with different weapons, most likely homemade bombs) is to come and take the guns away. So let’s talk about confiscation.

They say that there are 80 million gun owners in America. I personally think that number is low for a few reasons. The majority of gun owners I know, when contacted for a phone survey and asked if they own guns, will become suspicious and simply lie. Those of us who don’t want to end like England or Australia will say that we lost all of our guns in a freak canoe accident.

Guns do not really wear out. My Grandpa has perfectly functioning guns from WWII, and I’ve got friends who have still useable firearms from the 1800s. Plus we’ve been building more of them this entire time. There are more guns than there are people in America, and several of my neighbors have large enough collections to arm my entire neighborhood.

But for the sake of math, let’s say that there are only 80 million gun owners, and let’s say that the government decides to round up all those pesky guns once and for all. Let’s be generous and say that 90% of the gun owners don’t really believe in the 2nd Amendment, and their guns are just for duck hunting. Which is what politicians keep telling us, but is actually rather hilarious when you think about how the most commonly sold guns in America are detachable magazine semiautomatic rifles. (You may not have realized just how seriously a lot of Americans take their right to defend themselves)

So ten percent refuse to turn their guns in. That is 8 million instantaneous felons. Let’s say that 90% of them are not wanting to comply out of sheer stubbornness. Let’s be super generous and say that 90% of them would still just roll over and turn their guns when pressed or legally threatened. That leaves 800,000 Americans who are not turning their guns in, no matter what. To put that in perspective there are only about 700,000 police officers in the whole country.

Let’s say that these hypothetical 10% of 10% are willing to actually fight to keep their guns. Even if my hypothetical estimate of 800,000 gun nuts willing to fight for their guns is correct, it is still 97% higher than the number of insurgents we faced at any one time in Iraq, a country about the size of Texas.

And as for those 700,000 cops, how many of them would side with the gun owners? All the 'gun nuts', that’s for sure. As much as some people like to complain about the gun culture, many of the people we hire to protect us, and darn near all of them who can shoot well, belong to that gun culture. And as I hear people complain about the gun industry, like it is some nebulous, faceless, all powerful corporate thing which hungers for war and anarchy, I just have to laugh, because the gun industry probably has the highest percentage of former cops and former military of any industry in the country. The vast majority of men and women we have protecting us in the police and military forces have honor and integrity, and they will fight for what they believe in.

So... yeah, I have to disagree with you on your assertion that US citizens could not overthrow the US government with guns.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 04:51AM
well that was a brief period as the leader of the world (50 years) - sounds like america will self implode into violence and greed


Prusa 'Explorer' (3dStuffMaker), GEN6, J-head Mk III-B, Bowden Extruder, Marlin 1.0.0 RC2, Repitier-Host V0.84 and Slic3r 0.9.8, PLA. Live at Victoria, Australia.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 05:04AM
just out of interest what would the government have to do to cause such an aprising of the gun carriers of america?


Prusa 'Explorer' (3dStuffMaker), GEN6, J-head Mk III-B, Bowden Extruder, Marlin 1.0.0 RC2, Repitier-Host V0.84 and Slic3r 0.9.8, PLA. Live at Victoria, Australia.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 05:13AM
bit a stretch between comparing afghan who have fought the russians, america and nato for last x decades to a bunch of pot bellied mcdonalds couch patatoes who think they are in a die hard movie


Prusa 'Explorer' (3dStuffMaker), GEN6, J-head Mk III-B, Bowden Extruder, Marlin 1.0.0 RC2, Repitier-Host V0.84 and Slic3r 0.9.8, PLA. Live at Victoria, Australia.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 09:08AM
You're missing the point about the concept of allowing private ownership of 'weapons' instead of just tools to hunt or target shoot with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There are many cases of people in seemingly impervious positions deciding that their idea of 'right' allowed them to force others to do what they said.

One of the many things (and the last resort) keeping this in check is the fact that in the US we remember that we had to forcefully throw off the shackles of the British empire in order to set up a government that would allow us to be able to vote for the things we wanted and not be taxed at a ridiculously exorbitant rate without having any say in decisions affecting us. People here thought (and many still think) that this was something they were willing to kill and die for. It is no small issue.

The governments around the world in this era who have made criminals out of people who could otherwise defend themselves from this situation are only a very small step away from being victims of this type of regime. True, no militia or small band of gun owners is going to stop the US government from taking their land or their property if the US government chose to take them, but in the case of a local police force or even a 'National Guard' (who report directly and primarily to the governor of each state BTW) they might think twice knowing that there are hundreds of armed citizens out there ALSO protecting the rights of private citizens rather than if they knew that the likelihood was that they could just march in anywhere they wanted unresisted.

Governors have ordered the National Guard to fire on private citizens. Judges have ordered people from their homes. SWAT teams and police departments have invaded people's homes in the middle of the night and arrested people and shot people. This happens very often and it's USUALLY done to criminals but they make mistakes sometimes and do it to law abiding citizens. If every law abiding person in this country were asked to turn in their guns, then only criminals and the government (local, state, and national) would be armed and we're not willing to go there again.

The people who 'feel' that there ought to be a law or who are emotionally compelled to do something are very compassionate individuals. But rationality is what is needed here. Something to deal with the root of the problem, not one symptom. We're trying to slam the barn door and lock it after the horses have gotten out here people.

Laws that are directed at prohibiting one particular issue are NEVER going to fix this problem. If you pass a law that it's illegal to make or sell clips of 15 or more bullets then clips that can handle 14 will become commonplace. Will that end the violence? (and btw- I'm pretty sure there are conversion kits that are already available to make a semi-auto into a fully auto weapon right now).

Passing laws aimed at otherwise law abiding citizens is a pacifier. It's not going to fix the problem.

Back to the 3D printing of guns:
What about lasers? Right now they're used in medicine and you can buy the parts and build one in your home. It wouldn't be a 'Star Wars' caliber yet, but they will be one day. You can build them out of relatively common items just like an I E D or any number of other things that can be used as a weapon. Passing laws to limit the purchase of the parts is just an exercise in futility.

You know what I'd like to see on the cover of the New York Times tomorrow?

Quote

Over 1,000 people killed by RJ Reynolds and other US tobacco companies yesterday in the US alone!

Guns can be used to kill. They can also be used to protect yourself and your property. They can be used to hunt or target shoot.
Cigarettes, when used for their only purpose will negatively affect your health and will shorten your life. They will bring about your demise. They will kill you. In the US alone, over 400,000 people die each year as a result of smoking and our healthcare system supports all of the symptoms of those things: Lung cancer, throat cancer, COPD, and myriad other conditions at the expense of everyone. But those people die quietly and steadily so no one notices. They die one at a time so no one mentions it. They did it to themselves so no one has a problem with it.

The number of innocent victims who die as a result of mass shootings is so small that it just doesn't offset the rights of the number of people who would be put in jeopardy or whose rights would be impinged by this.

Check out this link for some numbers on mass shootings
It seems that the likelihood of being shot in a mass shooting in the US is about the same as being struck by lightning.

According to that article:
Quote

Economists John Lott and William Landes conducted a groundbreaking study in 1999, and found that a common theme of mass shootings is that they occur in places where guns are banned and killers know everyone will be unarmed, such as shopping malls and schools.

I spoke with Lott after the Newtown shooting, and he confirmed that nothing has changed to alter his findings. He noted that the Aurora shooter, who killed twelve people earlier this year, had a choice of seven movie theaters that were showing the Batman movie he was obsessed with. All were within a 20-minute drive of his home. The Cinemark Theater the killer ultimately chose wasn’t the closest, but it was the only one that posted signs saying it banned concealed handguns carried by law-abiding individuals. All of the other theaters allowed the approximately 4 percent of Colorado adults who have a concealed-handgun permit to enter with their weapons.
(bold and italics added by me).

Some people are broken. Some people will snap and go wild, but to the extent that they do think through their actions, they seem to want to go where they know they'll be the only ones with the guns.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 09:54AM
a_shorething Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back to the 3D printing of guns:
> What about lasers? Right now they're used in
> medicine and you can buy the parts and build one
> in your home. It wouldn't be a 'Star Wars'
> caliber yet, but they will be one day. You can
> build them out of relatively common items just
> like an I E D or any number of other things that
> can be used as a weapon.

Ok, now we have really jumped the shark winking smiley

There is a more informed piece on the engineering aspects of 3d printing of weapons here [www.extremetech.com]

If gun parts were to be made out of metal by some type of FDM process, it is basically a crude form of casting. Most gun parts are made by forging, because regular cast parts fracture too easily. Heat treatment helps somewhat. Some companies do use cast parts, and in fact it can have advantages, but it is a carefully controlled industrial process using inert gases etc, so not something you could do with a $500 home printer.

All cast parts require machining post manufacture, so that requires some tools and expertise. The fact is, the only practical way to make DIY guns is with conventional materials and machine tools, and will be for the foreseeable future. Yet no one is jumping up and down saying people can make guns with a home workshop.

The best and simplest way to obtain a weapon is to steal it from someone who owns one legally. The problem is not down to ease of manufacture, it is the availability of legal weapons.

The idea that you can download a gun design, press "print", and get a working weapon for a few $ is pure science fiction. The genie is not out of the bottle, because there is no genie in the bottle. The only reason that this gets fevered interest is because of the unique and weird gun violence problem in the US. In other civilized countries, it is merely a theoretical irrelevance.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 11:12AM
bobc Wrote:
> Ok, now we have really jumped the shark winking smiley
>
True enough, but many people fail to remember that 'Happy Days' continued for years after they 'jumped the shark'. smiling smiley

My point was that technology is always ahead of laws and will always develop in advance of laws simply because you can't pre-empt what could potentially happen in the future no matter how much you try. Bad people and broken people will do bad things. You can try to make it more difficult but at what price to everyone else?

> The idea that you can download a gun design, press
> "print", and get a working weapon for a few $ is
> pure science fiction. The genie is not out of the
> bottle, because there is no genie in the bottle.
> The only reason that this gets fevered interest is
> because of the unique and weird gun violence
> problem in the US. In other civilized countries,
> it is merely a theoretical irrelevance.

That's true. But you are using logic against an emotional argument. This is the problem.

There are mass shootings all over the world. Here in the US there are news organizations and there are infotainment organizations and many people get them confused. In the US a 'newscaster' is a celebrity. In England they have 'news readers' which is a much more accurate depiction of the exact same thing except the perception is different and in the US for some reason we don't just want the facts, the majority of people want it sensationalized and that means humanized. They want the story of the people involved, not just the numbers.

So you get knee jerk reactions instead of carefully thought out plan. You get people jumping into an argument yelling 'there ought to be a law' when the fact is, this guy already broken a whole host of laws to do what he did.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 30, 2012 01:56PM
well there you go - learnt what "jumped the shark" means - now how to use it a new years eve conversation ...
a_shorething, thanks for your comments
this is all a bit weird for me so please excuse my continued questions
isn't the final 'threat' of a democracy suppose to be the vote not the threat that the masses will rise up with their guns?
i'm still struggling to understand why you need to be rise up against the govt?
could you give me some examples where this has been required before in a modern sense?
what action by the govt would cause an uprising?
where do we stop? should we all be able to a have a nuclear device in out back pockets (a theoretical small cheap one)? what is considered 'safe' in a society? i would not feel safe in a society where there is going to a be a shoot out between a nutter and the bloke next to me at the cinima? would prefer (as it is here) that the citizens didn't feel the need to have guns in case they needed to overthrow the govt.


Prusa 'Explorer' (3dStuffMaker), GEN6, J-head Mk III-B, Bowden Extruder, Marlin 1.0.0 RC2, Repitier-Host V0.84 and Slic3r 0.9.8, PLA. Live at Victoria, Australia.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 31, 2012 02:18PM
rogerw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> isn't the final 'threat' of a democracy suppose to
> be the vote not the threat that the masses will
> rise up with their guns?
> i'm still struggling to understand why you need to
> be rise up against the govt?
> could you give me some examples where this has
> been required before in a modern sense?

I believe the 'Battle of Athens' (Tennessee, 1946) is about as good an example as you'll find. A political machine that rigged elections and ran roughshod over the citizenry was finally unseated only by armed revolt.

http://www.americanheritage.com/content/battle-athens


[haveblue.org]
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
December 31, 2012 06:09PM
@Haveblue,

Thank you for that. My point exactly.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 01, 2013 10:33AM
hi,thanks for that great example. haven't read it all yet but will - got the gist.
do you think such a thing would happen in the USA today?
i'm pretty sure it would not happen here today because of a strong media. the media love to hound pollies doing something wrong. using their cars or travel for the wrong thing. and that just the ambulance chaser/i slept with an alien current affairs shows. then there is the more serious investigative shows. and then the govt funded Aust Broadcast Commission (ABC like the BBC) who investigative journalist are really good.
plus all the modern technology as well ie. the camera under the dashboard recording the payoff, etc..
some police officers in Sydney tazzered(?) a guy to death last year and it is causing a shit storm. it was caught on the cameras on the tazzers themselves (and audio), on street cameras and on camera in peoples shops.
i'm saying that corrupt pollies and police should be stomped on at the start - not letting it get to a gun fight in the streets.
now if you are saying that your pollies and or police forces are bad then that's a problem.
is that still the case?
roger.


Prusa 'Explorer' (3dStuffMaker), GEN6, J-head Mk III-B, Bowden Extruder, Marlin 1.0.0 RC2, Repitier-Host V0.84 and Slic3r 0.9.8, PLA. Live at Victoria, Australia.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 01, 2013 12:47PM
@ haveblue

I really liked the article. A great example of what machine politics can do to a community. Being a lifelong resident of Atlantic County, NJ I can attest to the damage machine politics can do to a community. If you've watched Boardwalk Empire on HBO you'll know what I mean. My great grandfather worked at the Pleasantville Water Works (that supplies Atlantic City with water), and had to grease the right palms on a regular basis just to keep his job (Republican palms in this case). That was the way it was - if you had a public job you paid the machine to keep your job or the machine would find someone else. The Republican Party still owns Atlantic County, and I can't see that changing any time soon.

But back to your example. So I read it. It makes a great case that guns in the hands of citizens means nothing. Some GI's went home and grabbed their weapons to zero effect. Only after they broke into the National Guard Armory and took heavy weapons were they able to affect any change. So bad example on your part, but in the right spirit. I appreciate bringing it to our attention. I think it highlights the type of change that was happening at that time - a drive for justice and civil rights.

So, let's get back to that whole 'private guns keep government in check' argument. Can you provide any other examples where a private citizen uses firearms to affect governmental change? I mean, besides assassination - we have plenty of examples of assassination by firearm. Is assassination a proper second amendment remedy to prevent tyranny, even when political leaders act within the boundaries of the Constitution?


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 02, 2013 09:24PM
"guns in the hands of citizens means nothing" - I'm afraid I really don't follow your logic given the example cited. From my readings of the event, there were indeed privately owned arms in use. As documented in http://constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen_press.htm, the reporter on the scene noted at least a 12ga. shotgun, a repeating rifle, and a .45 pistol (which must have been a M1911, as I'm not aware of any other pistols chambered for that cartridge at the time) before the local armory had even been opened by the GIs.

There were likely other privately owned arms in use, as the gathered citizenry did not bring firearms to the polling places to begin with, but apparently went home to retrieve them. In fact, the one photo I could find that was taken during the event itself shows a GI weilding not an M1 Garand or British Enfield rifle (the two types of long arms held by the armory), but a side-by-side shotgun. Photo: http://image.patriotpost.us/2012-05-03-alexander-1.jpg

The privately owned arms in use could not exactly be tallied, as only the armory itself had inventory control (the GIs were polite and cleaned the guns before returning them).


akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But back to your example. So I read it. It makes
> a great case that guns in the hands of citizens
> means nothing. Some GI's went home and grabbed
> their weapons to zero effect. Only after they
> broke into the National Guard Armory and took
> heavy weapons were they able to affect any change.


[haveblue.org]
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 02, 2013 11:05PM
Sorry, I forgot a single word.

*EDITED version below*

Quote

It makes a great case that private guns in the hands of citizens mean nothing.

From the original article that you linked to, the American Heritage" one, the GI's were only effective AFTER they acquired heavy weaponry, not before. After all, even after they acquired a handful of weapons (4-5 handguns, a shotgun and a repeating rifle) they were powerless to storm the fortified jail, From page 4, paragraphs 5 and 6 quoted below.

"Bill White, who had fought in the Pacific while still in his teens and come home an ex-sergeant, had gotten angrier as the day wore on. At two in the afternoon he had harangued the group of veterans in the Essankay, saying: “You call yourselves GIs—you go over there and fight for three and four years—you come back and you let a bunch of draft dodgers who stayed here where it was safe, and you were making it safe for them, push you around. … If you people don’t stop this, and now is the time and place, you people wouldn’t make a pimple on a fighting GI’s ass. Get guns…”

In the early evening White went to get the guns himself. He sent two GIs to get a truck and, with a few other veterans, perhaps a dozen, he headed for the National Guard armory. There, he said in a 1969 interview, he “broke down the armory doors and took all the rifles, two Thompson sub-machine guns, and all the ammunition we could carry, loaded it up in the two-ton truck and went back to GI headquarters and passed out seventy high-powered rifles and two bandoleers of ammunition with each one.”"


So I read the other article you posted by Don Hamrick. The events outlined there exactly support the American Heritage article, except that there is no mention of a raid on the armory. But it does say this:

"Thousands of Rounds Exchanged

11:35 pm-12:40 am

Thousands of rounds of shots were exchanged between ex-GIs and an estimated 75 deputies barricaded in the McMinn County jail. No state guardsman had arrived at 12:40. Former soldiers were pouring lead into every opening in the brick jail. The officers' returning fire was weakening. Some GIs were firing from ground level across White Street. Others were on roofs on the Power Company Building and other near-by structures."


I wonder where they got those thousands of rounds? An Armory perhaps?

So, I am sorry that I mis-typed my reply. I still don't think that without the heavy weapons and dynamite they would have been able to affect any real change that night. As it turned out they were resourceful, better organized, better trained and better armed than the law enforcement goons. Good for them. But does it excuse their fellow citizens from allowing it to happen in the first place? I really like the piece by John Peck talking about Lincoln:

"'The government, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.' Abraham Lincoln

We have seen the latter part of the above quotation exercised here in McMinn County. We now have the opportunity to see the first part of it carried out.

What Lincoln meant was just this: The government of any group of people is in the hands of the people and they must carry on an active part in maintaining their government unless they want to abide by the rule of a few unscrupulous persons who find ways and means of getting the reins of power in governmental offices. If the people as a whole do not maintain a vigilant watch over matters of government a few people, grasping for power and domination find it easy to undermine all the principles of democracy.
...

The choice is in your hands; 1. Take an active part in your government, as is your duty and privilege as a citizen, or 2. The next time you find that your government has fallen into the hands of unscrupulous politicians just say, "It's my own fault, I had a chance to do something about it but slept through it."


The answer: GO VOTE. A robust, informed electorate would never allow such a thing to occur. But good luck with that these days - voter turnout was around 40% in 2012, and the sub-moronic, ADD media have all but abdicated their duty under the first amendment. They are free - to not provide the electorate with any usable information, whatsoever. Add to that gerrymandered districts and voting rules that discourage participatory democracy.

It's been fun!

The new Defense Distributed AR-15 looks VERY reliable. That is just great news. Just great. sad smiley


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 03, 2013 07:43AM
Matt,

You are saying that the citizenry should have voted these people out, but the whole gist of the first part of the article was that the elections were rigged. They tried that. So if your vote is cast and then ignored, what is the next course of action? According to the Lincoln quote you posted, the only recourse is to rebel physically. In that case the article says they stormed the armory, but in cases where people have sufficient arms and ammo this would not be necessary, as long as it's legal to possess those things.

You ask for another example or one that cites citizens doing this with their own weapons. What if the reason it's not necessary is deterrence? What if most local boss situations don't get this far because they know that the citizenry is armed and can only be pushed so far before they push back?

Make no mistake about this: the government will use force and threats to make you do what they want you to do. If you don't pay your taxes they will come and take you at gunpoint. If you break the law they will come and take you at gunpoint.

The 'law' in McGinn County made it impossible to vote them out, then they passed laws that essentially made it a requirement to pay them off on a regular basis. Had they also been successful in disarming the citizens, there's no reason to think the citizens would ever have gotten out from under their collective thumb.

The US was formed by scholars who had studied every major form of government and decided that it was very important to establish rules that would prohibit the government from being allowed to disarm it's populace. In a country that was formed by forcefully breaking away from our former oppressors I find it disheartening that people so soon forget this fact or deny it.

@rogerw,

You seem to think that the post WW2 era was so long ago that this kind of thing could not happen today. I was in a union (IBEW) back in the 80s and 90s and we had a vote on whether or not to go on strike one year. I did a straw poll of my 'brethren' and felt that we would not vote to strike. The vote came back quite overwhelmingly in favor of striking and I demanded a recount and that I be present for it. Surprisingly this time the count was the same, but the majority wanted us NOT to strike and we didn't. If I hadn't been there we all would have been led like sheep by our union 'leaders' to follow a course of action we were told the majority of us wanted.

Unions are very strong in this part of the country and in fact NY and NJ are not 'right to work' states. That means that if you want to work in a union shop (company branch) in NJ or anywhere in the construction trades in NYC you have to be a member of a union or risk physical threats, violence and even death. Union dues are deducted from your pay and you do NOT get to vote on this smiling smiley. This is a fact in 2013 and the news ignores it and the politicians support it because the unions pay into the politician's campaign funds. This is nothing short of thuggery supported by the political system... in the 21st century.

In a perfect world this kind of thing would be exposed and eliminated but votes are worthless in this case. The police and the thugs have guns and no one is going to take them away. I think the only thing keeping them in check is the fact that the citizenry is still allowed to defend itself. Sad, but true.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 07:51AM by a_shorething.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 03, 2013 11:31AM
a_shorething Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matt,
>
> You are saying that the citizenry should have
> voted these people out, but the whole gist of the
> first part of the article was that the elections
> were rigged. They tried that. So if your vote is
> cast and then ignored, what is the next course of
> action? According to the Lincoln quote you posted,
> the only recourse is to rebel physically. In that
> case the article says they stormed the armory, but
> in cases where people have sufficient arms and
> ammo this would not be necessary, as long as it's
> legal to possess those things.

Mike,
I think you miss my point - citizens failed in their duty to be informed and vote. It's that failure that ultimately led to the revolt - they allowed their rights to be taken away by a corrupt (local) political machine. It's the same failure mode that we see today. No one stuffs ballot boxes any more - there is too much political risk. Better to manipulate the voting system to ensure the "right" people vote while dis-informing the populace to ensure that they don't make informed decisions in the voting booth. Toxic.

Could the same type of election fraud happen today? Possibly - I don't trust electronic voting machines at all. But let me ask you this: In an age where a simple conspiracy between two people can't be held secret (Petraeus), do you think a vast voter fraud conspiracy would be air-tight? Probably not.

But if an election is rigged there are other ways to combat the outcome, but none that are as immediate or effective as what those GI's did.

What I find illustrative is the apparent *lack* of privately held arms and ammunition being brought to bear in this situation - at least documented privately held guns. I'm sure some GI's did get their gun from home. But at the same time I wonder what that weaponry was - what was the average gun held by a householder in 1945? I think there has been an out-of-control arms race in the past several decades. I remember as a kid that most of the guns I used/saw in my home and the homes of my friends were bolt-action, shotguns or the occasional semi-automatic rifle (.22's). Mostly hunting and some target practice. Semi-automatic pistols were rare, revolvers were plentiful. Now it seems to be the exact opposite.

> You ask for another example or one that cites
> citizens doing this with their own weapons. What
> if the reason it's not necessary is deterrence?
> What if most local boss situations don't get this
> far because they know that the citizenry is armed
> and can only be pushed so far before they push
> back?

Do you really think that elected politicians treat the electorate with anything approaching fear or respect? They look at us simply as the vermin that put them in office. If more people tuned out to vote on a regular basis and payed attention to what our elected officials do then we would command more respect. But people don't organize possies to root out political corruption these days - no one can be bothered.
Citizens don't care - American Idol is on.
Politicians don't care - don't rock the boat too much and continue on your merry way, just don't get caught fondling a dead girl or a live boy.

And what if you did round up a squad of good ol' boys and took your firearms down to the courthouse to demand justice? Even if you were completely in the right I don't think the outcome would be a very good one - Police don't care too much for having guns pointed at them, regardless of who is carrying them.

Most political machines are no more because they thrived in low-information, non-transparent environments. Once you start to inform citizens then political machines lose their power unless they latch on to specific groups with sensitive issues - think Republicans and Guns.

> Make no mistake about this: the government will
> use force and threats to make you do what they
> want you to do. If you don't pay your taxes they
> will come and take you at gunpoint. If you break
> the law they will come and take you at gunpoint.

Isn't that the role of government? We elect officials to represent us and pass laws to correct social problems because they are not solvable via a market (matter of fact it's the only reason why Government exists - to deal with market failures). It's why murder is illegal. It's why they will arrest you if you kill someone. It's why there is a justice system. If you break the law aren't they *supposed* to arrest you? What's the point of a law if it isn't enforced?

Taxes. It's how we as a society pay for things that markets fail to pay for (roads, cops, firemen, education, healthcare, military, etc). Don't want to pay? Move somewhere else - I can think of plenty of low-tax or no-tax environments, only issue is that they are hellholes. I love people who complain about taxes being too high then in the next breath complain about the deficit or bad roads or not enough cops or $800 toilet seats in the Pentagon. You want stuff? Gotta pay for it. Is there fraud, waste and abuse? Sure, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the size of the federal budget.

What really chaps my ass about taxes is the fact that we here in NJ send way more $ to DC than we get back. Meanwhile, most of the red states who complain about "Big Government" are a bunch of welfare queens that take in more Federal $$$ than they send to DC. Disgusting hypocrites.

> The 'law' in McGinn County made it impossible to
> vote them out, then they passed laws that
> essentially made it a requirement to pay them off
> on a regular basis. Had they also been successful
> in disarming the citizens, there's no reason to
> think the citizens would ever have gotten out from
> under their collective thumb.

Maybe. Can't see this happening in the age of twitter and facebag though.

>
> The US was formed by scholars who had studied
> every major form of government and decided that it
> was very important to establish rules that would
> prohibit the government from being allowed to
> disarm it's populace. In a country that was
> formed by forcefully breaking away from our former
> oppressors I find it disheartening that people so
> soon forget this fact or deny it.

We *only* revolted because of one thing - No taxation without representation. If the king had given the colonies seats in Parliament we might still be under the Crown, or at least in the Commonwealth.

But enough of that.

How's things in Point Pleasant? Things down here are getting back to normal in the shore towns, but we didn't get smacked nearly as bad as you did. Can't believe they put off the vote for Sandy relief - just another backhand across the face for NJ, but I guess we should be used to it by now.

- Matt


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 03, 2013 01:56PM
Matt,

What we have here is a failure to communicate. smiling smiley

You still maintain that the populace in McGinn county somehow failed to do their civic duty by not voting these guys out. They DID vote them out, but the people running the show took the ballot boxes, counted the votes and told the people they had won. Democracy wasn't working. Votes were cast but not counted. People were paid to vote a certain way and it was IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to vote them out. They did everything they could within the system but the problem here and with gun control laws is that they only affect those who are willing to obey the law. Those who feel they are above the law or outside of it or that it doesn't apply to them will do whatever they feel is necessary to get what they want.

The voting public was being held hostage and being shaken down by this group of 'good old boys' and nothing short of violence (and a great deal of it apparently) was going to change that. It's a miracle no one was killed. This is the last recourse of anyone in our society, but it is a recourse that must never be taken away from us.

re: Taxes: I don't have a problem paying my fair share of taxes, my point was that the government speaks from behind a gun, even if the infraction is non-violent. Even in the case of a 'white collar' crime the penalty is violence. We live in a violence-based society. Period.

What I've read about the revolution was that we rebelled primarily because of taxation without representation but also because of laws requiring us to put up British soldiers in our homes and a few other things not required of normal 'British subjects'. Taxation without representation is the same as saying you're not able to send elected representatives to parliament or whatever central government is provided. In McGinn County they were unable to get their own elected representatives into office (although the charade of an election was still performed) and they were being shaken down on trumped up charges against which they had no argument. There is literally no difference here and the result was the same.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the idea that things like this could never happen in the world of today. For how many years did that child molester do what he did at Penn State before someone shined a light on it? Those guys were like gods in that part of Pennsylvania. Then when the story finally broke it looked like everyone involved was just turning a blind eye and ignoring it for decades. How about the same kind of thing in other places? It's only obvious when someone decides it's worth looking into and talking about. Then it's only interesting until the next story comes up.
********************ANYWAY.....

Things are getting back to normal up here, or at least a new, normal thanks for asking. My sister-in-law has been living with us since the storm, her house in Rumson was trashed and she can't go back. We were above the flood line here though (by about 2 feet) and we found that our neighbors are really great people, letting us plug into their generator from day 2 on. On day 6 of the power outage they went to have their baby, but didn't name her Sandy. smiling smiley

All things considered we were very fortunate thanks. Glad you got through it OK too.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the whole gun control issue. I hope you're right and nothing like what happened in McGinn County can happen ever again. I also hope people will stop trying to control each others lives and interests, allowing them to do whatever they like to do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or society. I won't hold my breath for either one though.
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 03, 2013 04:02PM
a_shorething Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matt,
>
> What we have here is a failure to communicate. smiling smiley
>
> You still maintain that the populace in McGinn
> county somehow failed to do their civic duty by
> not voting these guys out. They DID vote them
> out, but the people running the show took the
> ballot boxes, counted the votes and told the
> people they had won. Democracy wasn't working.
> Votes were cast but not counted. People were paid
> to vote a certain way and it was IMPOSSIBLE for
> anyone to vote them out. They did everything they
> could within the system but the problem here and
> with gun control laws is that they only affect
> those who are willing to obey the law. Those who
> feel they are above the law or outside of it or
> that it doesn't apply to them will do whatever
> they feel is necessary to get what they want.

I think you're right! Maybe I wasn't clear. My biggest issue is that the voters allowed this to happen to begin with (in 1940, not the 1945 election) - that they were coerced to vote a certain way - and they let the corrupt politicians into office in the first place. If more citizens participated stealing elections would be much harder to pull off.

>
> The voting public was being held hostage and being
> shaken down by this group of 'good old boys' and
> nothing short of violence (and a great deal of it
> apparently) was going to change that. It's a
> miracle no one was killed. This is the last
> recourse of anyone in our society, but it is a
> recourse that must never be taken away from us.
>
> re: Taxes: I don't have a problem paying my fair
> share of taxes, my point was that the government
> speaks from behind a gun, even if the infraction
> is non-violent. Even in the case of a 'white
> collar' crime the penalty is violence. We live in
> a violence-based society. Period.

I think we pay more than our 'fair share' here in NJ. smiling smiley
I think that our society only respects the gun - this is really the root of the problem. I don't fault the police - they have to meet even perceived violence with violence sometimes due to imperfect information. And in this day and age they have no idea who they're dealing with - you could be a regular joe or an armed thug.
I certainly agree with you about the violence-based society. We glorify it in every form of media. We use it to meet out justice. We accept it as an everyday fact of life. Not that long ago even domestic violence was acceptable, in some places it still is.

"No man is gonna hit my sister unless he's married to her" - Some hillbilly heard on the TV


In the end it speaks to the savage heart of the American male. We have made a society in our own image, and it's pretty disgusting. So sick of the crap that charades as 'entertainment' any more - it's why I bury my head in the computer every night instead of watching some garbage on TV. Although I do like 'How it's Made"...

>
> What I've read about the revolution was that we
> rebelled primarily because of taxation without
> representation but also because of laws requiring
> us to put up British soldiers in our homes and a
> few other things not required of normal 'British
> subjects'. Taxation without representation is the
> same as saying you're not able to send elected
> representatives to parliament or whatever central
> government is provided. In McGinn County they
> were unable to get their own elected
> representatives into office (although the charade
> of an election was still performed) and they were
> being shaken down on trumped up charges against
> which they had no argument. There is literally no
> difference here and the result was the same.

Yeah, the quartering of British soldiers was a pretty big deal too, aimed at rooting out revolutionaries. I wouldn't want to have to have FBI agents living with me...

>
> I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the idea that
> things like this could never happen in the world
> of today. For how many years did that child
> molester do what he did at Penn State before
> someone shined a light on it? Those guys were like
> gods in that part of Pennsylvania. Then when the
> story finally broke it looked like everyone
> involved was just turning a blind eye and ignoring
> it for decades. How about the same kind of thing
> in other places? It's only obvious when someone
> decides it's worth looking into and talking about.
> Then it's only interesting until the next story
> comes up.

Exactly. Those Penn State coaches *were* gods - and gods get to act with impunity because everyone looks up to them. They can do no wrong, and if they get caught buggering a child in the shower everyone just looks the other way... It's a mindset.

Politicians are only popular for a period. All it'll take to disenchant one person involved in a political conspiracy to steal an election is a policy change by the elected official that benefited from the fraud. People always talk when they're pissed off.

But I think you're right about the news culture - there is no investigative reporting any more, and what little is done reaches a ever-shrinking audience because it's on PBS (Frontline), it "makes me think too hard - I want more honey boo-boo" and its perceived as left-leaning. The 24-hour news cycle killed our attention span, and what's more important it killed the editor - now every story is given equal weight when one thing clearly isn't important and another is. As a result quality declines and usable information diminishes. Case in point - they talk about this Kim Kardashian on CNN - why? Is she important somehow? Oh, she's a whore - now I understand. That story is given equal time with 60,000 dead in Syria. angry smiley

I don't want to get rid of guns. I don't want to get rid of the second amendment either. I just want some common sense. Is that too much to ask for? Enough with the talk of guns - I'm just tired of all the killing. Maybe we should all carry swords - I'm down with that. But people will still kill one another - someone bound a guy in a car in Philly the other night. Stabbed him to death and set him and the car on fire. sad smiley

***

Glad to hear everything went OK with the storm. That sucks about you sister-in-law. Hopefully between insurance and FEMA she'll be made whole (or at least close to it). You have awesome neighbors - this is exactly why I don't watch doomsday preppers - people will help each other out in a pinch!

Matt



> ********************ANYWAY.....
>
> Things are getting back to normal up here, or at
> least a new, normal thanks for asking. My
> sister-in-law has been living with us since the
> storm, her house in Rumson was trashed and she
> can't go back. We were above the flood line here
> though (by about 2 feet) and we found that our
> neighbors are really great people, letting us plug
> into their generator from day 2 on. On day 6 of
> the power outage they went to have their baby, but
> didn't name her Sandy. smiling smiley
>
> All things considered we were very fortunate
> thanks. Glad you got through it OK too.
>
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the
> whole gun control issue. I hope you're right and
> nothing like what happened in McGinn County can
> happen ever again. I also hope people will stop
> trying to control each others lives and interests,
> allowing them to do whatever they like to do as
> long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or society. I
> won't hold my breath for either one though.


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: Thingiverse goes down the rabbit hole
January 04, 2013 09:21AM
Let's say you allow guns for "self defence" if you agree with that or not.

Well if your allowed guns, why not a grenade launcher. They are the same tool with the same purpose.

In that case, you really should be allowed to own a tank!

Actually why not a small nuke, I only want it for self defence.


Clearly this is stupid, they are all analogous to eachother, they are all designed purly to kill people. Why is one murder machine ok compared to another?

Even for self defence a gun is next to useless. If someone suddenly attacks you with a gun what really is the chance you are going to get your own weapon out (which is probably in a drawer at home) and react in time to save yourself. All you are doing is putting weapons into circulation which are next to impossible to defend against.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2013 09:39AM by konwiddak.
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