MakiBox $200 Complete 3D Printer

So, it's almost a month since the last post on this thread. There's been a few design updates to the MakiBox and some more sample prints which, to the uneducated eye, look pretty good. Is this any improvement? I'm considering getting one (when they're available) and wanted to hear some more people's opinions on this update. Also, is it any better than the Printrbot simple?

www.makibox.com

Here's my response when these same pictures were posted to Reddit: [www.reddit.com]

I remain utterly unimpressed by the prints the Makibox is turning out. At least Printrbot doesn't misrepresent what you're getting (as much): a box of parts that might become a 3D printer if you spend enough time beating your head against it.

Just 1000+ people waiting to get their Makibox kit and start assembly and become frustrated
and fill up thousands of messages on many forums.

Hey they did an Alpha, improved the printer
did a beta build came up with ways to make it producable and improved the printer.

Now to get it out to the cheep morons --- 80% will become closet ornaments!
They will say "hey why is it not just like my inkjet printer"

Here is the only Yoda I printed, on a Printrbot that I paid $250+shipping for as a kit:



And other prints:

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[www.matter-replicator.com]

I hope they succeed. While I'm not one of the people waiting for their makibox, I do every once in a while check their blog to see where they are at.

It seems they have honest intentions. Delivering a couple thousand printers is no small feat, they underestimated, just like 99% of the projects on kickstarter.

I looked at the prints, they do not look bad. Especially from a $200 printer. In fact they look better than the printed parts from large US companies.

Just like the raspberry pi, they set out to make an affordable printer. Did the rpi live up to the promises? Not even close. Riddled with design issues (hardly functional USB port), slow to the point where it's pretty much useless running X and by the time you get it running it will cost almost the same as an intel atom desktop board. But they sold over 10 million units. And yes, the makibox will have issues, too. But not everyone has $1000+ to buy a 3d printer. Can you imagine even a million 3d printers out there?

If nothing else, they will light the fire under all the #jumponthe3dprintinggravytrain #letsgetrich #fromrippingpeopleoff group. You can hardly get the electronics and hotend in the US for $200 (not more than $20 to manufacture). $35 sdramps board ($4 to make). $5 heater resistor ($.7 at digikey). $3000 replicator (at most $500 including labor).

I'm a complete beginner but I have been looking at 3D printing forums and websites to get an idea of how it actually works, and realise that work will be needed to get good prints - you don't just download the file, click 'go' and everything will work perfectly. If this printer leads to me becoming more interested in the technology, in the future I could get a more expensive printer with more capabilities. If however, it isn't any good it won't turn me off completely from 3D printing - I know that you can't compare a $200 Makibox to a $2000 Replicator. I also realise that there may well be problems with the Makibox due to it's newness, so I'm open to tinkering and improving.

For $200, it looks good to me, going in with my eyes open and managed expectations of the quality of the prints. Jon & the team seem like they are trying to do their best and I think I can trust them. I'll report back with my actual results later when I've got one!

Have you already paid for a MakiBox? At this point I would really suggest people to stop placing orders, even if the MakiBox finally launches and orders ship, people need to realize at some point they are going to have more purchase orders than they can fulfill for a long time. A $200 price point is an amazing price for someone who "wants to test the waters" "it's only $200 im not spending the 2.2K on a makerbot even if i do get low quality prints" etc. and will go forward and place an order, even as you read this, orders are most likely being placed by people who have no clue that they are still under development, but just saw the amazing low price.

I'm only speculating, but MakiBox really bit off more than they could chew by not setting, and still have yet to set, a limit on the number of orders that can be purchased through their site. Anyone ordering NOW to receive their kit by a promised date will not be receiving their kit until way down the road when you've finally given up on them and moved on. If you haven't placed an order yet, don't. Wait until people start receiving kits and see the community responds as a whole to gauge the general idea of who placed an order when and if the more recent orders are being fulfilled yet or not.

Hi Everyone, I've been keeping tabs on this thread, but have not posted here yet since I didn't want to stir the waters and figured that anyone would just come over to our site if you are interested.

We have the production tooling almost complete. You can see the first test shot assembly at MakiBox PP00 Video

For the post asking about a geometric shape: We've got plenty of other posts with test prints up on the MakiBox site.

Since we are a) in Hong Kong and b)have injection molded parts our output will scale as needed, so we will be able to get through our original orders in July and expect by September to be able to start bringing in the lead time steadily.

We will be releasing the full design files for the Beta design that is CNC/Printable in the next couple of weeks. You also might want to check out the 5D Print host and firmware which is starting to shape up nicely. The firmware is based on a mix of Sprinter and Marlin, but has been cleaned up and turned into C code so that we don't have all the dependencies on the Arduino development environment. The host software is written in Go, and is cross compiled into native apps and will be able to run on something as small as a Raspberry Pi and can be remotely controlled with anything with a browser.

Anyhow, it has been interesting to watch this conversation. We are looking forward to the production start and also releasing the design files.

I am the early backer of the Makibox (+ the raman) and has stuck to the end, the man has spoken! - finally so show some support I think it is a great product. There a lot of improvement on the design - I've been following their development for a looooooooooong time!

I also has supported the Rigidbot, the prirate 3d printer and a dlp base printer from China -[www.indiegogo.com]- currently running. I didn;t expect much on this last so let see.

I will also build my own delta printer from my own design. I am looking to collaborate with others. I base in Sydney, Australia.

In the near future I will set up a blog to share so stay tune.

it's just at some point you have to stop taking certain updates and view it as an excuse to wait "just a little longer". Things need to happen, sample/alpha/beta kits need to be shipped to users to show the company is actually developing. I understand there is overhead and unexpected road bumps companies must face, but like i said before there could be over a million orders makibox needs to fulfill before they can get to the order you place today. The promise of injection molded parts bodes well for the possible millions of orders they've received, but, again, a lot of stalling going around. If I had a legitimate kit in hand or even saw some reliable sources with kits, my mind would be at ease, but as of right now, i'm highly skeptical.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2013 02:03AM by isonoob.

We've had beta units in the wild for over a month now, and are about to send them the final upgrades to get them caught up with the in house betas. Pre-production units are going to be shipping to folks next week, with the final production starting this month after the tooling is polished and the final revisions are made. This is the schedule we laid out a month ago, so no delays or excuses.

Soooo close! I think Makibox will deliver. I poked around looking at the design and I am impressed. Not an unnecessary part to be seen. No compromise on what has to be in it. All drive rods, no floppy belts, no backlash problems, light weight carriages so less inertia to fight that could produce shake. I'd get one myself if I didn't have a Rigidbot on the way in December. Perhaps I will get one.....not sure. Don't forget shipping (to Canada) adds $89 to the $200 base cost. That's why I went with Rigidbot, It was only $166 more for me to get a Rigidbot with a 10x10x10 inch build area as opposed to roughly 6x4x3 inches on the Makibox. But Rigidbot uses belts....not a fan of belts, might need more adjustments, may need some anti backlash gears as an upgrade...time will tell. I really was torn. Now I have to wait 6 months. Makibox owners will be getting thiers in as little as four weeks depending on what shipping option they have chosen. In a month and a half there will be over a thousand Makibox in the wild.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2013 02:42PM by Peterthinks.

Peterthinks Wrote:
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> Soooo close! I think Makibox will deliver. I poked
> around looking at the design and I am impressed.
> Not an unnecessary part to be seen. No compromise
> on what has to be in it. All drive rods, no floppy
> belts, no backlash problems, light weight
> carriages so less inertia to fight that could
> produce shake. I'd get one myself if I didn't have
> a Rigidbot on the way in December. Perhaps I will
> get one.....not sure. Don't forget shipping (to
> Canada) adds $89 to the $200 base cost. That's why
> I went with Rigidbot, It was only $166 more for me
> to get a Rigidbot with a 10x10x10 inch build area
> as opposed to roughly 6x4x3 inches on the Makibox.
> But Rigidbot uses belts....not a fan of belts,
> might need more adjustments, may need some anti
> backlash gears as an upgrade...time will tell. I
> really was torn. Now I have to wait 6 months.
> Makibox owners will be getting thiers in as little
> as four weeks depending on what shipping option
> they have chosen. In a month and a half there will
> be over a thousand Makibox in the wild.


I looked at the Rigidbot and the site I was looking at only allowed 100 dollars to hold it for you but no where on that site did I see a final price.

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

[inventapart.com]

go to the very bottom and there's a green buy now button ~500 unassembled with shipping in hte US

isonoob Wrote:
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> [inventapart.com]
>
> go to the very bottom and there's a green buy now
> button ~500 unassembled with shipping in hte US
How does that differ, or makes it better, from say a Prusa I2 that parts, with shipping, is about 500 dollars?

edit: I see it is more rigid but what about the electronics etc...? So many questions to compare the two beyond the obvious of the sturdier rigidbot.

Thanks.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2013 11:02PM by Dark Alchemist.

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

isonoob Wrote:
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> Have you already paid for a MakiBox?

Yes, I have - I feel that they can deliver. When? I don't know but I guess I'll find out

Peterthinks Wrote:
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>But Rigidbot uses belts....not a fan of belts,
> might need more adjustments, may need some anti
> backlash gears as an upgrade...time will tell. I
> really was torn. Now I have to wait 6 months.

Belts are much better than screws. They have less mass, so less momentum and faster acceleration.

GT2 belts don't have backlash - it is screws that have backlash.

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[www.matter-replicator.com]

All belts have some backlash and also resonance as well. It is mostly up to the mechanism and setup of the system if they appear enough to change the system tolerances. Screws are used on CNC machines typically, belts on laser cutters, so by that generalization you can guess that screws and belts are similarly good, but have different properties. For the MakiBox A6, I wanted a configuration that didn't require calibration on the travel. Screws are a good fit for this since you know exactly how many steps equals what travel. I had to design a simple and effective backlash elimination mechanism, and especially the production design is very simple. For a larger machine we are probably going to use a belt and pulley, but design it to be self-calibrating.

lajos Wrote:
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> If nothing else, they will light the fire under
> all the #jumponthe3dprintinggravytrain
> #letsgetrich #fromrippingpeopleoff group. You can
> hardly get the electronics and hotend in the US
> for $200 (not more than $20 to manufacture). $35
> sdramps board ($4 to make). $5 heater resistor
> ($.7 at digikey). $3000 replicator (at most $500
> including labor).

None of those parts can be sourced in single (or even small quantities) for the price posted. Except for perhaps the heater but then how much to ship it to you? Typical cost of manufactured goods are three to five times the raw parts costs. There are many costs in doing business and most here aren't familiar with what it takes even on a small scale. Being across the river from Guangdong Makibox is in a good position for a supply chain and to be able to scale manufacturing but far away from the core markets of North American and Europe. The price is reduced by limiting the functionality and value engineering the device so it's more cost effective to produce. Assuming they ship soon I think the next hurdle will be in support. Scaling the support is likely to be as perilous as getting the product to market for them was/is. The margins are likely razor thin at that price and probably doesn't leave any room for resellers so that avenue of support is out. It will be interesting to see as the demand rises if they will be able to maintain the price point while being able to support the machines and maintain product for the demand. Were they available I'd get one just to check it out but I'm not willing to front them a few hundred bucks and wait for months to get the product.

> None of those parts can be sourced in single (or even small quantities) for the price posted.

I'll take a simple one from above, the sdramp board, from digikey, single quantity:

- 3.3v voltage regulator $0.40
- micro sd socket $2.20
- 74HC4050 level shifter $0.46
- led, resistors, capacitor: $1.20

That's $4.26, shipping $1.35. Let's say you don't want to point-to-point it, etch a copper clad that you either have or buy 5 pcs of 4x8" double sided (enough for ~150 sdramps) on ebay @ $8 with free shipping (for most people will last a life time).

Make this in quantity in China, I'd be surprised if it would cost as much as $2 assembled with headers, but let's just say $3 shipped to your door. Now I might be misunderstanding what reprap and open source hardware is about, but I don't think selling this using those logos for $25 and above is cool.

Support is a good point. I assume they'll have to count on community support.

The key for makibox to succeed is decent print quality and volume. I don't think their margins need to be razor thin. Depending on the model, they can still make 30-40%. Which probably won't buy them the corporate jet, but maybe their motivation, other than earning a normal size paycheck, is to bring an affordable 3d printer to the market.

I don't think we have anything to complain about for 3D printer pricing. The margins are well within what is normal. The exception seems to be QU-BD, who is pricing things at 1/2 of what is normal - $999 for a printer that is almost certainly better, stronger, faster than a Makerbot M2.

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[www.matter-replicator.com]

lajos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The key for makibox to succeed is decent print
> quality and volume. I don't think their margins
> need to be razor thin. Depending on the model,
> they can still make 30-40%. Which probably won't
> buy them the corporate jet, but maybe their
> motivation, other than earning a normal size
> paycheck, is to bring an affordable 3d printer to
> the market.


I think you are mistaking margin for markup. As an example Apple's gross margin is about 38%. And that's a segment leader of what I'd consider a premium brand with the retail price structure to match. Those are remarkable numbers. Makibox will be nowhere close to that. It's not a premium product but a value product with price as the primary feature. Makibox aren't going to sustain that growth and be able to deliver without getting more capital as the costs to expand will not only outpace any net profit but likely the entire cash flow as well. Same as Makerbot. That's not going to be accomplished from a Kickstarter crowd sourcing.

yeah 38% but thats after they write off things like stores, advertising, those stupid "geniuses". makibox wont have any of that. and as far as the mark up on an apple product, its huge, it has to be in order for them to recoup the costs of advertising and the stores and stuff.

> I think you are mistaking margin for markup.

You are right, I've used the wrong word. I meant that they will use the 30-40% difference between their manufacturing cost and sale price to pay for electricity, rent, wages etc. They will not make Apple style profit (like the $25 sdramps dudes), nor do I think that's their goal. And this is the biggest reason why I'm hoping they, and companies like qu-bd succeed.

aduy Wrote:
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> yeah 38% but thats after they write off things
> like stores, advertising, those stupid "geniuses".
> makibox wont have any of that. and as far as the
> mark up on an apple product, its huge, it has to
> be in order for them to recoup the costs of
> advertising and the stores and stuff.

Apple's margin exceeds most other companies not only in that sector but in retail products as a whole. A gross margin is before expenses and deductions and as such those aren't counted in the figures. Apple product is priced at a premium because that is what the market will bear. The costs of the stores and support are a factor though those costs would be included in the retail price if the the product was sold primarily through a dealer network as the costs of distribution and retailing aren't free. The retailer, regardless of if the stores are company owned or independent, is going to have to shoulder those costs and those are factored into the product at the retail level.

$200k for a team of engineers for this amount of time barely puts food on their table, let alone business-related costs.
Think before typing.

Just a trickle of them going out before they turn on the fire hose.
Shipping final production models.

Also, they posted their assembly manuals. Great looking. Looks pretty straight-forward to assemble.

Supposedly I'm order #00013 and paid for expedited shipping. Potentially i should have my MakiBox in a couple weeks and assembled within 2 hours after that.

If this catches on I will indeed purchase one but it needs to be on a real order basis where I order and they ship otherwise no deal. I still want to print my vase and flower for my wife (6 months since she suddenly passed away on Feb 7).

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist
Man that really strikes a chord. Having just printed a set of similar items for my other half it really makes you think. You have my sympathy. I hope you get your machine and your prints soon.

Sorry of your loss, Dark Alchemist.

Yes, if I didn't already have an early order in, I'd wait until I see a skid of boxes getting shipped out. Only 522 days since I 'funded' their effort. Would have been nice to been able to print a year ago, but it is what it is. The latest videos of the latest revisions look like it could be quite the contender.

It might be a few months before they get through their current backlog--rumored as a few thousand or so.

i'm impressed with their assembly manual. I'm ready to turn some screws.