is easymaker better than all repraps

Peerbhai robotics says that easymakers low quality prints are better than all other Repraps out there. Quite a bold statement. It went to kickstarter and failed but why. He says that now with his secret patend it is sure to make it this time. Check out what he says: [peerbhairobotics.com]

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If it was all that, it would have been funded. Note the lack of examples or a photo gallery to back the claim. And from what I can read, it's still in a beta format.

"Given that the KickStarter did so poorly, I had forgotten an important detail — I have created a robot that is far better than anything that currently exists. It may not sell, but it works amazingly well." ~ Imran

um, yeah, sure, okie dokie then

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2013 04:11PM by Dirty Steve.

I see he deleted my comment from this morning about his nerve to stand on the shoulders of others and use the guns of government to prevent others from standing on his.

I agree. The part that really bothers me is his claims that it is better than any other. He also says it is expensive and what he doesn't realize is that there are many people building repraps for a little amount of money that can out print machines that costs thousands of dollars. It seems he is putting more energy in his patents pending than actually researching the market to see the leaps and bounds us open source builders have created.

I am an avid cnc builder as well. Before I dove-in head first into 3d printing I was all for the hybrid and a part of me still is. But there is so many reasons why you shouldn't. They both have different requirements and needs. I know because I dedicated a lot of time to making a hybrid but I ended up finding out that it can be done. It is a lot better to build one of each. You can have the best CnC in one machine and the best RepRap in another machine.

I don't know maybe I'm trailing a bit but I have seen a lot of what you and other reprap builders have created and I would put your printers up against the best that mass production and copy written has to offer. When other people claim to be better than the rest then they need to be able to prove it instead of saying it.

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I suspect that attitude gets you venture funding.

I was just thinking about it and he calls it easy maker. Yet himself calls it complicated and says that his own BOM is enormous and expensive. I don't get it.

Why are we even dignifying this idiot with the bandwidth to discuss his complete lack of achieving anything notable?

Hi All,

I'm the guy who made EasyMaker. EasyMaker is a hybrid mill/printer. EasyMaker didn't do so hot in KickStarter, because people felt it was too incomplete. The wiring and my lack of video-production experience was the core problem. There's a few hybrid printer/mills out there right now. For the most part, the concept of a hybrid printer/mill works just fine. Yes, mills and printers require different physics -- but about 3-4 different groups have solved the problem and achieved good quality and speed in both milling and printing. Some people feel that single-purpose machines are better. For those people, I guess we should have a different machine for computing artillery tables than we do for word processing as well -- the same arguments were made for phones and computers. Technology has moved forward, and really, the reason for separating the two systems is gone today. It's just that everybody and their dog likes 3D printing today, and milling is an older technology that people aren't as hot about any more. I'm hoping that by putting the tech into people's hands, users can learn and use both techniques.

EasyMaker has pictures and videos on the blog, both of output and of it in action. I even consolidated some of them into the main EasyMaker page, so you could see for yourself. If you read through the blog, you'll find plenty of close-up shots of my prints, and see them next to output from other robots -- including other open source robots. I called the robot EasyMaker because it is easy to build, maintain, and run compared to other robots. It still is -- not as easy as a pre-built robot, but easy enough as a DIY robot. I've seen novices build EasyMaker from scratch in about 2 hours -- all you really need is a laser cutter, some T-Slot rail, ways, bearings, and screws. I made EasyMaker open source, and published the source and BOM -- feel free to build one. I abandoned work on that Robot a while ago. Links to the source and BOM are in my Blog. I'm the only person I've met in a long time that has fully released an open source robot design, so I've given more to the community than 99% of RepRap people.

If you guys don't feel that I've backed my quality claims sufficiently with the videos and pictures on the blog, well, I'm not going to fix that. Other than posts, pictures, and videos, there's not much else I can put on the internet to prove my claim -- maybe not organized the way you'd like, but they're all there. Feel free to criticize, but If you aren't willing to read the posts, look at the videos, or look at the photos, then that criticism is pretty hollow.

I am, right now, putting my R&D into a patent on new technology, which has just entered into the pending stage. It's been tough for me to keep my secret a secret, since I do want to show off the new abilities. But, I realize that if I do so now, when I still have messy wiring and other issues normal to an Alpha, I'll risk losing future sales. I also learned from my open source adventure, in that releasing a robot to open-source before you sell it just kills the robot. I learned from that mistake, and won't open source a design again. I use patents, because EasyMaker taught me that if you don't have them, then you're screwed in the long run. The market becomes a race to the bottom -- eventually, prices fall below the point where you can safely run a business. It's already happening in the RepRap community. I'll never beat the Chinese in costs, and I want to keep most R&D, manufacturing, and the like here in the US. Without patents, that won't be possible. Some people don't like them. Remember that RepRap is something built on top of Patents. Billy says, "How dare you use the guns of government!" Except that RepRap did so -- Adrian wrote a research paper where he lists the patents he learned from in order to initally design the RepRap. The RepRap is standing on patented shoulders. My new robot, currently in design, can do something that no RepRap or hybrid can do -- it's innovative. But it's not ready for revealing, and it won't be for a while. There's a lot left to do. I've blogged about when the right time to reveal will be. That doesn't mean people will like it or want it -- but if they should, then I want credit for the design. In my opinion, patents are the open-source "gentlemen's agreement", except with teeth.

Anyway, feel free to critique EasyMaker to your heart's content. But do keep your facts straight: EasyMaker, the old robot, is fully open source, has pictures, has videos, and even has samples out in the wild. But, hey, if that doesn't move you, because whatever reason, that's fine. EasyMaker failed, I played the Open Source game, failed, and learned from those failures. I believe I understand why it failed -- but don't for a moment think the claims were exaggerated. If anything, I was very conservative with my marketing. The few people who got to touch, feel, and use it were amazed. These are people who are at the forefront of 3d printing -- not novice users. And there's no other word. Don't believe me? Build one and see for yourself. I gain nothing from that -- but you get one of the best devices on the market. I do make some requests -- make the same mods I've made over the years, as documented on the blog( Borosilicate glass bed, Ron's extruder, .35mm head, 1.75mm filament ). Prices have dropped a lot since my BOM was released. You could easily make one today for a lot less. My other request -- please don't ask me for help with it. I don't get anything from EM, and I want to use my time on my new robot and other ventures.

Until them, and I say this with love and humor, troll/flame/circlejerk away
--Imran

It's not about your printer as much as it is your ego and nothing to back it up with. There is hardly any photos of printed or machined parts in the blog. If your machine was all that, people would be building it...........

If it was all that, you yourself would not be moving on to a different design.......

Your kickstart failure has nothing to do with open source.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2013 10:24PM by Dirty Steve.

Imran Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also learned from my open source
> adventure, in that releasing a robot to
> open-source before you sell it just kills the
> robot. I learned from that mistake, and won't
> open source a design again.

Wait a minute. You're saying that nobody bought your robot because its source was available ahead of time? Those damn EasyMaker clones just flooded the market?

> I use patents, because EasyMaker taught me that if you don't have
> them, then you're screwed in the long run. The
> market becomes a race to the bottom -- eventually,
> prices fall below the point where you can safely
> run a business. It's already happening in the
> RepRap community. I'll never beat the Chinese in
> costs, and I want to keep most R&D, manufacturing,
> and the like here in the US. Without patents,
> that won't be possible.

Absolutely a race to the bottom and that's great. I keep waiting for the Chinese to get more in the game to enable more people to own a 3d printer. btw. How exactly does your patent protect you from Chinese manufacturing muscle?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2013 10:49PM by billyzelsnack.

For those who complain about quantity of pictures, videos, etc -- here's some put together straight from the blog. It's not even all of them -- just a quick pull from scrolling the first page.

Printing:
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]

Milling:
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]

By the way -- the parts on EasyMaker were milled or printed on EasyMaker, and EasyMaker can make other EasyMakers. I don't want to defend EasyMaker -- I'm not pursuing it -- the big reason for the design change was ease of sourcing -- I wanted to change the bearing system to Igus, since I can source it easier. That sounds simple -- but that's a huge change. My KickStarter did fail -- but I had thousands pledged. Most KickStarter projects haven't raised a fraction of what I did -- including other CNC mills that came out at the same time. The problem is the $500 3d printer. That's what the market wants, but not what I want to make. Could I turn EM into a $500 3d printer? Yes -- cheap electronics, printed connectors( I use metal ones now ), chinese made hot-ends. But, I don't want to make that. To me, that's junk. EasyMaker was meant to be far better than that, and to work with materials a printer couldn't work with, for a reasonable price.

But you must be right -- I couldn't possibly have figured out how to make a good mill and printer. I know the internet, and I know how skeptical y'all are, and how many of y'all are trolls -- but EasyMaker did meet its claims. If the above pictures and videos aren't enough, nothing will be. There's even more on the site -- you just have to be willing to scroll and click. You've made up your minds to not believe me because you think it can't be done -- and have determined yourselves to be right.

Why? Because OP was a troll? Because some of you tried to design a robot that could do what EM can do and failed? Because I posted it in a blog format instead of a picture gallery? Because you hate patents? Think about it -- y'all don't believe me because of the format, not the message. Not to say EM was perfect -- I am fair enough to point out where it doesn't work well, too, in the same blog.

My new robot goes further -- at least in my opinion. The problem with making claims is that it's still in R&D, and if y'all don't believe the claims on EM, which has pictures and videos, then you aren't going to believe what I've accomplished in my patented technology. I know when I reveal, I have to format it the way you guys want -- because you can't hear it otherwise. I just hope that when the format matches what you want, you'll be fair enough to buy one

For those who complain about quantity of pictures, videos, etc -- here's some put together straight from the blog. It's not even all of them -- just a quick pull from scrolling the first page.

Printing:
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]

Milling:
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]
[peerbhairobotics.com]

By the way -- the parts on EasyMaker were milled or printed on EasyMaker, and EasyMaker can make other EasyMakers. I don't want to defend EasyMaker -- I'm not pursuing it -- the big reason for a design change was ease of sourcing -- I wanted to change the bearing system to Igus, since I can source it easier. My KickStarter did fail -- but I had thousands pledged. Most KickStarter projects haven't raised a fraction of what I did -- including other CNC mills that came out at the same time. The problem is the $500 3d printer. That's what the market wants, but not what I want to make. Could I turn EM into a $500 3d printer? Yes -- cheap electronics, printed connectors( I use metal ones now ), chinese made hot-ends. But, I don't want to make that. Some of you guys want that -- that's fine -- I don't.

I know the Internet. Y'all have decided my claims must be false. Why? Because you hate patents? Because OP was a troll and used an inflammatory title? Because some of you tried to design something like this and failed? Because I have a blog instead of a picture gallery? If you don't believe EM, which has pictures and videos, how will you believe what my patented technology can do? I will try and make the message something you guys can hear -- I hope y'all be fair enough to hear it -- and buy one

You did not answer my questions.

Billy wrote
-------------------------------------------------------
Imran Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> I also learned from my open source
>> adventure, in that releasing a robot to
>> open-source before you sell it just kills the
>> robot. I learned from that mistake, and won't
>> open source a design again.

> Wait a minute. You're saying that nobody bought your robot because its source was available ahead of time? Those damn EasyMaker clones just flooded the market?
No -- people built it from the source instead of buying from me. Some even told me, outright, that they're going to clone it and sell as their own. Some people derived from my design ( no problem with that ), and din't bother to attribute me.

>> I use patents, because EasyMaker taught me that if you don't have
>> them, then you're screwed in the long run. The
>> market becomes a race to the bottom -- eventually,
>> prices fall below the point where you can safely
>> run a business. It's already happening in the
>> RepRap community. I'll never beat the Chinese in
>> costs, and I want to keep most R&D, manufacturing,
>> and the like here in the US. Without patents,
>> that won't be possible.

>Absolutely a race to the bottom and that's great. I keep waiting for the Chinese to get more in the game to enable more people to own a 3d printer. btw. How exactly does your >patent protect you from Chinese manufacturing muscle?

Patents allow me to block importation. I doubt there'll be Chinese clones for quite a while -- hopefully people want my design enough to clone it. They also allow me to enforce the gentlemen's agreement if I so choose.

Billy, I know you hate patents. They're a moral abrogation in your mind. But really, they're just the next logical step in the "gentlemen's agreement", and a social construct. They do provide some economic leverage to help keep porter's 5 forces from eating a business alive. You don't always need them -- but if you want, one day, to have investors and put your company into the growth lane, you need them. MakerBot got one, on heat + conveyor belt, and it enabled them to get investment. It's just how the game is played if you ever dream of stepping into the big leagues one day.

Anyway, I'm tired of responding to this thread. It takes my time and makes me sad. I can't beat out pre-conceptions with reason and heart -- just break my own.

Thanks!

> > Wait a minute. You're saying that nobody bought
> your robot because its source was available ahead
> of time? Those damn EasyMaker clones just flooded
> the market?
> No -- people built it from the source instead of
> buying from me. Some even told me, outright, that
> they're going to clone it and sell as their own.
> Some people derived from my design ( no problem
> with that ), and din't bother to attribute me.

How many people? It was so many that it ruined your business?

> Patents allow me to block importation. I doubt
> there'll be Chinese clones for quite a while --
> hopefully people want my design enough to clone
> it. They also allow me to enforce the gentlemen's
> agreement if I so choose.

Patents allow you to use expensive legal means to ATTEMPT to block importation. Good luck with that.

> Billy, I know you hate patents. They're a moral
> abrogation in your mind. But really, they're just
> the next logical step in the "gentlemen's
> agreement", and a social construct. They do
> provide some economic leverage to help keep
> porter's 5 forces from eating a business alive.
> You don't always need them -- but if you want, one
> day, to have investors and put your company into
> the growth lane, you need them. MakerBot got one,
> on heat + conveyor belt, and it enabled them to
> get investment. It's just how the game is played
> if you ever dream of stepping into the big leagues
> one day.

No thanks. Bootstrapping instead of bootlicking for me.

> Anyway, I'm tired of responding to this thread.
> It takes my time and makes me sad. I can't beat
> out pre-conceptions with reason and heart -- just
> break my own.

Sell yourself whatever works.

Quote

I also learned from my open source adventure, in that releasing a robot to open-source before you sell it just kills the robot.

Yea, that's what killed it. All of those other companies out there producing your design. Riiiiiiight.


Must be nice living in such a cloudy dream world. Has to be cozy in there.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 11:57AM by xclusive585.

I would say Its not the product It's you but really It's both. I personally have built several hybrids that work just fine. But they worked much better as two separate machines. Open source companies with good designs have done better than many closed source companies even with other people using similar designs. The whole point of open source is to give credit to the builder and improve upon their design. Then someone will improve upon your additions. Eventually making that design the best it can possibly be. You know what it works and those companies make money. A lot of closed source companies are realizing this and releasing their bots info into the community. This is a close knit community and We are your potential customers, if it fails here then the builders of the whole idea will not support, buy or copy your ideas. You as a person have failed. I almost feel sorry because you are biting the hand that feeds you so to speak.

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Quote

> Wait a minute. You're saying that nobody bought your robot because its source was available ahead of time? Those damn EasyMaker clones just flooded the market?

No -- people built it from the source instead of buying from me. Some even told me, outright, that they're going to clone it and sell as their own. Some people derived from my design ( no problem with that ), and din't bother to attribute me.

Matches my experience with Generation 7 Electronics. Because these clones/derivates require substantial less development efforts they can put their focus entirely on marketing. It's marketing alone which matters today, the actual quality of a product is (almost) neglibile, as long as a product works somehow.

As a countermeasure I did the following:

- Open source sparse (only the released design) and last minute. That's what most competitors do anyways and open sourcing earlier harms (people being confused, people building incomplete designs, etc.) a lot more than it helps.

- Put a license with non-commercial clause onto the design. Not really enforcable either, but you can make clear your work is not indended to make others rich.

- To allow commercial use, dual-licensing exists.

Drawback:

- Quite a number of RepRappers, most of them running shops on their own, consider a -NC license to be evil. Some of them outright fight against the design.

Advantages:

- As intended, commercial clones are somewhat held back. Works well so far.

- It's honest. Nobody designing open source to make a living does so to support other businesses.

- Some shops pay for a commercial license or buy licensed boards (instead of buying industrial PCBs). Only those shops show up in the RepRap wiki or buyer guides.

- Apparently, people feel quite inspired to make clones or derivates for personal / non-commercial use. I have no hard numbers, but the feedback indicates some 50% of the Gen7 boards on this planet are made DIY. Quite possibly Gen7 is the electronics design with the most derivates these days.

- Your work is clearly identified with your person.

Hope that helps.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

The effort involved in cloning electronics is a world of difference from the effort involved in cloning a kit.

I've been following what looks like it might be a good hybrid. It looks like a great hybrid but it is definitely for the big boys. Huge platform. To check it out click on my link.

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Fraud!

What don't you understand about the concept of OPENSOURCE hardware?

Why are you debating this garbage here?

Quote

I've been following what looks like it might be a good hybrid. It looks like a great hybrid but it is definitely for the big boys. Huge platform. To check it out click on my link.

Check it out: [reprapsquad.blogspot.com]

Constantly redirecting people to your blog instead of just posting the original links and your thoughts here is irritating, and it feels like borderline spamming. Please stop.

crispy1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been following what looks like it might be a
> good hybrid. It looks like a great hybrid but it
> is definitely for the big boys. Huge platform. To
> check it out click on my link.
>
> Check it out:
>
> Constantly redirecting people to your blog instead
> of just posting the original links and your
> thoughts here is irritating, and it feels like
> borderline spamming. Please stop.

Couldn't agree more.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

My cell phone was tripping out when I originally posted it That's why there was only a link to My page. I posted the actual link after I got home. Sorry.

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nvm

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 12:13AM by xiando.

Quote

Constantly redirecting people to your blog [...]

It's apparently his signature.

@RepRap_Squad: it's a good idea to put a <hr> in front of the first line of the signature.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matches my experience with Generation 7
> Electronics. Because these clones/derivates
> require substantial less development efforts they
> can put their focus entirely on marketing. It's
> marketing alone which matters today, the actual
> quality of a product is (almost) neglibile, as
> long as a product works somehow.

Except that in Easymaker's case this didn't even happen. No one cloned and sold the design. It just failed to attract enough interest for the Kickstarter to succeed and now the creator is blaming the possibility of someone being able to clone the design for the failure.

Quote
Tekwizard
What don't you understand about the concept of OPENSOURCE hardware?

Do you talk to me?

Well, being open source isn't a religion, it's a business model. As a such one is well advised to constantly re-evaluate wether it's the right model and which flavour of the model works best. There are many flavours and RepRap's currently most often used flavour, the GPL (GPLv2? GPLv3?) is designed for software, not for hardware.

@ttsalo: you're probably right.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

[www.grunblau.com] here is the hybrid. I already posted it once but I don't see it so here it is again.