Prusa Mendel it3 or Air SxL... Clueless

Hi guys, I'm new here, and going to buy a RepRap, really love the models..

My question is, I can buy the premade parts from a guy here in Holland, and he is offering a few different models, as you can see here:
[www.printedparts.nl]

I am now going towards buying the Prusa Air 'SXL' since it has 200x200x160mm print space instead of the 200x200x100mm for the original Prusa Mendel and Air 2.

Do you guys really miss those 60mm in your printable area when you are printing, or is the 100mm printing height usually enough to work with?

Also, if I would go for the Prusa Mendel it3 or the Prusa Air 'S' (I think it's Air 2), which one would I be better off with?

The Air 2 looks a little bit less sturdy, I can't find much about the Air model, so I am thinking of going to take a Prusa Mendel it3 just because I think more people have it, though the Air SXL with the extra added print height looks really tempting!!!

See you soon, in printing world
- Marinus, The Netherlands


Update:
Is there really nobody who can help a newbie out on this decision?

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 06:03PM by Ohmarinus.

Did I maybe ask the question in a wrong topic, or is there an abundance of 'n00b' questions here?
I'm sorry if my topic/question is maybe repetitive or not that interesting

I have decided upon getting the Air SXL, which the seller told me is the Air 2, but higher, made with Acrylic.
It has a 200x200mm base plate and 160mm Z-axis (thats the height right?) and uses an MKII hot plate.

Will post some video's/images of the machine once it's finished and standing on my desk.

the price on that site is very good for europe.
i use the prusa and i like it a lot.
i've never build anything over 10cm high.

Thanks for your reply, I've also thought about more height, and it may be a problem in case of shrinkage..

Anyway, I ordered it and will receive it next week tuesday/wednesday

I may be a little late for actually helping, but look around you. Most likely, the plastic parts in your vicinity should fit into the smaller build size. This also reflects how big parts will be in most cases.
That being said, warp is more an issue horizontally, speaking from my experiences. So if you can fit a part into the higher build space instead of printing it laid out flat on the platform, it might turn out better in some cases, but of course there are a lot of other factors influencing quality and warp.

True true, though I am studying Architecture on a very good Art Academy in Holland and would like to have the option of making parts for a design or scale model that is bigger than the 200x200x100 dimensions in any way imaginable.

If I would do that, it won't be solid objects ofcourse, I understand the capabilities of such a machine to a certain extent.

This will include trying to print wire-frame like structures (yes, I know they need support structures, but I have no idea how to make those, I have seen some things about it in slic3r).

Machine parts will be delivered to me around Wednesday, so I have time to prepare learning slic3r and reading about how to configure my machine and calibrate everything.
Any good guides for new users? I have found some instructions, also a youtube video, don't know whats all out there and if I missed something.

Also, I think that on youtube there is still not a lot of 'good' footage to show what the machine can do, I will attempt to make better footage of the whole machine.

Update:
Meanwhile I have been looking into making 3D objects, it's also new for me to think in a 'Solid' way. So I had about 10 minutes to tryout something, what I did was:
- Add SketchUp plugin for STL export
- Download Slic3r
- Download Repetier
- Drew a quick 2 interlinked cubes
- Set Slic3r so it would add support material to the structure
- Export to Gcode
- Import in Repetier

All this works for me, all I have to do it wait for the printer to come on wednesday, I CAN'T wait

Anyone who can look at my pictures and tell me if it's doable for a newbie to 3D printing?
Heres some screenshots of what I did (btw I set Slic3r for the correct settings for the Prusa Air, don't worry)


(clickable thumb)


(clickable thumb)


(clickable thumb)

I hope I manage to print something complicated as this in a few days or am I expecting too much? I am a quick learner, took me about 10 minutes to realize the above.

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2013 09:21AM by Ohmarinus.

Yeah, if you are already to some extend familiar with Slic3r, it might be possible for you to get good-looking results in a few days. At least, that was the case with the students (with zero knowledge and prior experience) who built Mendel90's in our art school.
The first day will be spent with calibration pieces, anyway, but with Slic3r, I found calibration to be quick and easy. After I switched to Skeinforge, it took me some time to adjust every setting right again, so definitely stick with Slic3r for getting into everything.
However, I got better results with Skeinforge, so you might want to switch after becoming familiar with the technology.

If you want to create large structures, the first and easiest way to go could be using acetone to glue together smaller pieces. That way, you can realize what you have in mind with what is available. Another advantage is that huge pieces tend to warp without a heated build chamber, so initially limiting build size might be a good idea until you upgrade your printer to accommodate your needs fully.

I mostly learned by doing, tinkering and trying, but if you run into problems or have questions, just ask away here, I guess. Also, reading the blogs of the more experienced RepRappers is quite insightful.

Ohmarinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone who can look at my pictures and tell me if
> it's doable for a newbie to 3D printing?
> Heres some screenshots of what I did (btw I set
> Slic3r for the correct settings for the Prusa Air,
> don't worry)
>

You have placed the floating cube very high, this just wastes support material. Bring it down as low as possible with just a little space from the lower cube.

You also don't need to use any support at all to print this type of open cube (a single one) as the filament will bridge across the horizontal just fine.

So the correct way to make this object is to add support for the second cube directly into the design of your model, just add it to support the base of the floating cube so you can break it off after the print.

If you can print that in a few days, you have a well calibrated printer.

I did a similar change to a model cube with a sphere in the middle (see below), you can see on the green and orange ones the underside where I added support material to the model to support the overhang of the sphere, the rest of the model prints fine without any other support material required.

The support just pulls off, as it's 0.1mm floating below the sphere, so only just makes contact with the object.

On the yellow you can see where the bridge goes across, only a tiny fraction of sag as the filament stays tight as it prints. - you may need a fan to help with bridging like this, just a small one, PLA likes a breeze.



Rich

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

Ohmarinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi guys, I'm new here, and going to buy a RepRap,
> really love the models..
>
> My question is, I can buy the premade parts from a
> guy here in Holland, and he is offering a few
> different models, as you can see here:
> [www.printedparts.nl]
>
>
> I am now going towards buying the Prusa Air 'SXL'
> since it has 200x200x160mm print space instead of
> the 200x200x100mm for the original Prusa Mendel
> and Air 2.
>
> Do you guys really miss those 60mm in your
> printable area when you are printing, or is the
> 100mm printing height usually enough to work
> with?
>
> Also, if I would go for the Prusa Mendel it3 or
> the Prusa Air 'S' (I think it's Air 2), which one
> would I be better off with?
>
> The Air 2 looks a little bit less sturdy, I can't
> find much about the Air model, so I am thinking of
> going to take a Prusa Mendel it3 just because I
> think more people have it, though the Air SXL with
> the extra added print height looks really
> tempting!!!
>
> See you soon, in printing world
> - Marinus, The Netherlands
>
>
> Update:
> Is there really nobody who can help a newbie out
> on this decision?



the prusa i3 on the site is wrong it looks like the i2 so beware

Haha, I actually did the same yesterday in my 3D program, I lowered the cube because I myself also thought that it would cost too much material for the support.

Also, in Repetier it says '2:30' printing time, is that in minutes?

I don't expect the print to take an hour, but I also don't expect the print to be done in 2.30 minutes. Seems wrong.

Wednesday I get the Air SXL, it's a modified Air with a 160mm Z-axis.

Ohmarinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, in Repetier it says '2:30' printing time, is
> that in minutes?
>
> I don't expect the print to take an hour, but I
> also don't expect the print to be done in 2.30
> minutes. Seems wrong.
>
> Wednesday I get the Air SXL, it's a modified Air
> with a 160mm Z-axis.

It's saying 2hours 30mins - your cubes are about 50mm? I will depend on the settings you choose, the print speed, the acceleration set in the firmware and also how much it has to print + any support material. It's possible for this to take 2 hours 30mins, but I would have said it could be printed well in about 1 hour if you don't use lots of support material.

You will find out quickly enough support material is a real pain, anything you can do to make models print without it, is a big bonus.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on with the printer, I have not seen a review of the Air printers, so do think about doing one for the next Noob

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

Yeah I will videotape it, because indeed, not much to find on the machine and it can be much better! I have a good definition camera and also have a nice audio recorder so I can record all kind of things.

I have been thinking of tilting my design for the cubes on their side, so that the 'floating' cube will touch the ground with one corner. Maybe I can minimalize support structure for it that way. I mean, designing in 3D doesn't mean I have to have them perfectly floating in the air. As long as they are interlocked with eachother I can position them any way I want

Only problem is that I don't have Rhino or anything like that so I can only work in Sketchup at the moment. And I think that I really need something beter than Sketchup so this is a very actual problem at the moment.

By the way I have also designed a very unique cup that I want patented, just because it's something I have planned to make for years now already. I am totally pro-opensource, but is there also a place where you can 'sell' your designs? I have actually been thinking of not looking at an online shop, but going to a manufacturer in the physical world. So a design bureau or an interior design company.

I'll find out how that works after I got the machine to work, first of all I guess I just need to get my machine calibrated and running smoothly.

Also ordered 1kilogram of blue ABS 3mm. So all my first tryouts will be in blue ABS.

If it all works out I have already set an order for Yellow, White, Black and semitransparent white ABS. Together that will cost me 80~90 euros.

Oh mannn I just can't wait to get started with this machine!!!!!

Hey, nice that you are willing to do some documentation and give back to the community!

If you print one cube tilted, the layers won't be aligned to the sides of the cube, resulting in tilted lines. But if you are ok with that, this approach indeed will minimize support material minimally.

I personally use blender. Completely free of charge (some plug-in authors do charge a little amount for their extensions, though) and free and open source software.
It is originally intended for 3D animation, but it has enough multi-purpose and powerful features that you can create complex 3D printable objects with it. Also, there are mesh analyzing and repair features that help you to make correct objects.
If you look for reviews, you will sometimes find people say it has got a bad interface and that everything is so complex and confusing, but having used the old (pre 2.5) versions, I can only say that the new interface has gotten a lot better and beginner-friendly. You just have to read the instructions and documentation a bit (that is true about any more complex 3D program).
The included physics engine might help you with tilting the cube in a easy way. Just "drop" it and let gravity do the rest


I think you can sell your designs at Shapeways or Ponoko, but I have not dug into this matter (yet), so my information is rather limited.

Alright, I received the message that the package will be in my possession tomorrow-afternoon.

Problem #1 - The building instructions I have received with the kit are obscure to say the least. Ofcourse I didn't expect any superduper quality guides on building it, but the images and PDF file are not enough to help me out sad enough.

Also one thing I don't understand is that I am told to use a relais to put in between the heatbed and the Sanguinololu, and that if I don't use the relais, I have to attach a cooling plate to the mosfet that is on the heatbed. I am told that it is about a 'Heatbed MKII'.

Any place where I can find more good detailed info on building the Air?

One good source for wiring would be the Wiki. At least that is how I learned how the electronics work. Here is the link to the Sanguinololu board page.
I have no experience with relays, but I suppose the mosfet they are talking about is on the Sanguinololu and not on the heated bed itself (unless you are using a custom design or a Huxley heated bed). There are two 12V outputs on the board, one for the hot end and one for the heated bed. The mosfet for the heated bed 12V output is marked as Q2 on the board, which you can equip with a heat sink (to be honest, a lot seem to be running their heated bed mosfets without heat sinks, but I have added one to my build, just to be safe).

As for the frame, I would try to get photos from different angles. As this particular model is comparatively simple in construction, building from photos should be manageable. I personally am building my own design, so I cannot really offer you any better tip than that, as I have not researched the Mendel Air extensively.

Well, Finally received my package.
Items broken, stuff missing...... Some printed parts of the machine turn out to look completely different from the construction guides I have found on the web..
Will mail the seller, because this is not cool. Especially 2 big parts are missing.. X-end motor parts where the pins run through are missing.

Blargh I took the day off to put it all together but now it's all fecked.

The MDF plate also is missing a lot of holes to connect the heatbed, and some parts are just very poorly printed.

Update:
Receiver word from the seller, he will send the missing/broken items again. This is very nice, since I suspect that the post office is responsible for the broken mirror.

Update 2:
Some more small items are not completely in order, but it's all taken care off and I am very pleased with the help of the seller! He will send me the parts again

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2013 11:51AM by Ohmarinus.

Ohmarinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, Finally received my package.
> Items broken, stuff missing...... Some printed
> parts of the machine turn out to look completely
> different from the construction guides I have
> found on the web..
> Will mail the seller, because this is not cool.
> Especially 2 big parts are missing.. X-end motor
> parts where the pins run through are missing.
>
> Blargh I took the day off to put it all together
> but now it's all fecked.
>
> The MDF plate also is missing a lot of holes to
> connect the heatbed, and some parts are just very
> poorly printed.
>
> Update:
> Receiver word from the seller, he will send the
> missing/broken items again. This is very nice,
> since I suspect that the post office is
> responsible for the broken mirror.
>
> Update 2:
> Some more small items are not completely in order,
> but it's all taken care off and I am very pleased
> with the help of the seller! He will send me the
> parts again

The first machine is never that easy , but when you are all up and running you be self-sufficient for future machine builds - and you will build more... lots more.

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

Okay, I'm still missing some parts.. This is getting kind of frustrating now, I like how the seller managed to add the missing parts but the new package was lacking parts aswell, I ordered some more nuts, bolts and screws at another shop because I'm not gonna order another package that might not contain everything I need. Oh and also ordered some cable-management things and some nice printercables so I can make the steppermotor cables a bit longer. The cables that come out of the steppermotors are only like 15~20cm long.

The printed parts are all crooked and deformed by bad printing, so I feel kind of ripped-off..

But hey, at least now I get a chance to show how it's really done and when I got this machine up- and running, I hope I can re-print all the parts I want. Only better! Muhaha.

Can't wait! Already assembled all the different parts, a lot of the electronics and most of the stepper-motors.

The biggest problem is that some parts don't 'glide' well because the printed parts are deformed and are not straight. So I hope it's accurate enough for me to print better parts that are not deformed.

I read somewhere that PLA plastic is better for printing machine parts than ABS. Why is that?

Ps, I am using a new design for the clamps that connect the rods to the stepper motors on the top, but the holes for the M3 nuts are wayyyy too small to I heated them up with a soldering iron while pushing them in and they just melted right into the part. This works much better than cutting and filing because you don't make the hole too big but exactly fit this way. Also some parts have layers in the middle that are not adhered well to eachother.. That sucks too.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2013 07:40PM by Ohmarinus.