What do you print (ABS) on?

Just curious to know what some people are currently doing.

Iv run kapton tape pretty successfully in the past, esp on heated beds that did NOT have glass. Not such great luck if i put the kapton tape on the glass, not sure why might be a tad bit colder?

Abs juice has never worked for me , Tried it once covering kapton with it and the part still lifted. I have covered blue painters tape with abs juice. Never got the tape off the part, and i tried, a LOT.

Never tried hair spray.. good? bad ugly?

Feel free to chime in with whatever method works for you!

I use a mixture of PVA glue and water (cheap white glue such as Elmer's) on heated glass. No lifting of parts both for ABS and PLA.

I get sheets of kapton from dupont, then thin contact cement and apply it to both the glass and the kapton. then i just apply it to the glass. if there are bubble i just use a need and suck out the air, works great, a little lumpy but works great. then i just run my bed at 120c, and every few prints clean the bed with a wipe of acetone to remove oils from my fingers and such.

Hairspray and then smear a thin coat of Elmer's glue-stick on bare glass, no kapton tape.

i have great luck with floor acrylic used on abs and pla. let it spread on and evaporate, then wipe excess with paper towel. works great. i even get it working almost 100% of the time with pla. it seems pla works if I apply another acrylic layer after bed heats up and wipe it off quickly i think this ruffs up the surface,'


this is PLA sticking to glass. it works even better with abs. I'll try to post a recent video. this one is really old!

this was printing out a code shaped adaptor to hold in tubing on a bowden system. here is what the part looks like completed
[www.thingiverse.com]

it was an ugly hack to allow tubing to stay in place under high speeds with extruder. it has the side for tiny nails to go in and grasp the extruder tubing

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2013 04:44AM by jamesdanielv.

Recently I have been using very dilute ABS juice on glass. To start with it doesn't work well at all but it slowly gets better and after a few days even the biggest parts stick and I only need to wipe it with pure acetone between builds.

So then I have a totally reliable system until the glass breaks. I then don't have a quick way of replacing it. I have tried leaving the ABS juice on it and baking it over night. I have tried repeatedly building a large flat sheet but there doesn't seem to be any quick way of making it work again.

I wish there were some surface chemists in RepRap that could tell us what was going on. I keep thinking I found the perfect bed for ABS but eventually it fails for some reason.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2013 07:22AM by nophead.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

The Dauerdruckplatte from MTplus works perfectly for ABS and PLA.
Does NOT work for Nylon 618!

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Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

Kapton tape on (heated) aluminium plate. Sticks like a charm. The only downside is that the tape tends to tear a bit, especially when prying off large builds using a spatula. It's a real pain to replace strips of tape and get acceptable alignment and no bubbles... On my next machine I'll go with sanded or smooth glass with adhesive (abs juice most likely) if needed.

I'd also like to see a systematic comparison between different surfaces and/or adhesives, haven't looked for one though, might be someone already done it. Might as well do one myself when I get the next machine up and running.

rhmorrison Wrote:
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> The Dauerdruckplatte from MTplus works perfectly
> for ABS and PLA.
> Does NOT work for Nylon 618!

Seconded. Good to know about the Nylon though, i wanted to test that soon.
Cheers
Björn

Does Dauerdruckplatte work forever or does it wear out? Also it is too thin to resist the warping forces. How do you hold it down in the middle?

The unique thing about using glass is it never degrades so every build is perfect, until it sticks so well it breaks.

With Kapton and PET the problem is the adhesive is not strong enough so they eventually bubble up. The other down side of films is it can be hard to remove the object, especially with Kapton. Solid bed surfaces release the object when it cools.

Solid PET doesn't work because it goes soft at the temperatures used. I think PET tape is actually BoPET that handles higher temps. A sheet of metal with that bonded to it would be good I think but I think it is only available in thin films. Also I find films impossible not to get air bubbles although they eventually dissipate. They need to be laminated in a vacuum to avoid bubbles.

I recently tried Solder resist film. I thought that was the perfect solution but it lost its grip after about a month and I made two more that never had any grip so I don't know what was magical about my first attempt.

Single sided FR4 PCB works well but soon fades. I found using ABS juice restored the grip but it then started warping. I don't know if that was the effect of the acetone or just the repeated heat cycles and the bending strain from the object.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2013 09:17AM by nophead.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I print ABS to glass, with a dilute coating of ABS Juice (ABS/acetone). The coating does tend to deteriorate after a few prints, so I give it a quick wipe with some kitchen tissue with a splash of abs juice on it.

I have a hood over the printer and I allow the temperature to rise in the hood before I start. It's about 28Deg C. in the hood.

I use plain picture glass, placed directly on the heated bed. No kapton tape. I've found the thin glass has actually survived very well, despite general concerns about glass thickness and cracking on the forum. The only time I've cracked it was when I got impatient and tried to remove a piece when it hadn't cooled enough. The glass is from cheap €2 picture frames that I cut to size with a glass cutter.

It is a bit tedious having to recoat the glass and let it dry (I keep a number of sheets of glass on the go), and wait for the chamber to heat so I would also be interested in hearing other's experience.

I know Chris (Nophead) had been a proponent of the very clean glass approach, but now appears to have drifted towards ABS juice (his comment above).
Chris... Why did you start using abs juice? I expect it was a constant challenge to get the glass a clean as it needed to be to take ABS.
Also, Chris, do you always use a heated chamber when printing ABS?

Quote
nophead
Does Dauerdruckplatte work forever or does it wear out?
Also it is too thin to resist the warping forces.
How do you hold it down in the middle?

Well, nothing is forever, but Stoffel15 and I have been using ours exclusively for close to two years now and they show no signs of wear. I have probably printed 8 Kg of PLA, and Stoffel15 prints ABS almost 24/7 so you can figure out yourself how much ABS he has printed on it.

It is 0.9mm thick and I have no problems with the warping forces (but I am using PLA).
Simply held in place with four clips.

No tape, no funny juice.
Just make sure it is clean (like you do for printing PLA on glass).
I use a normal window cleaner.
Impossible to remove when the heated bed is up to temperature.
Simply pick up when at room temperature.

The best invention since sliced bread!

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

NumberSix Wrote:
>The only time I've cracked it was when I got impatient and tried to remove a piece when it hadn't cooled enough.
Occasionally it sticks in one spot even when cooled and removes a flake of the glass surface. I think it is when I have missed wiping it with acetone.

> It is a bit tedious having to recoat the glass and
> let it dry (I keep a number of sheets of glass on
> the go), and wait for the chamber to heat so I
> would also be interested in hearing other's
> experience.

ABS juice dries instantly for me.

>
> I know Chris (Nophead) had been a proponent of the
> very clean glass approach, but now appears to have
> drifted towards ABS juice (his comment above).
> Chris... Why did you start using abs juice?

I only use clean glass for PLA. I have never had a problem with PLA sticking to glass but I have never been able to print ABS on clean glass.

> Also, Chris, do you always use a heated chamber when printing ABS?

No I print a lot of Mendel90 parts on a stock built kit, which has no heated chamber. I am using PET tape on that.

I am currently trying to print on glass with my Acrylic Mendel without a chamber but not succeeded yet. But it never works for me to start with. I have to condition the glass somehow and then it works with just acetone with maybe a trace of ABS on the cloth I use.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

rhmorrison Wrote:
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> > Does Dauerdruckplatte work forever or does it
>> wear out?
If you don't mistreat it it will work for years. No strong cleaners (Aceton etc.) and no knifes etc. to dislodge the printed objects.

>> Also it is too thin to resist the warping forces.
>> How do you hold it down in the middle?

> Simply held in place with four clips.
You need a planar surface to begin with, i use a heated aluminium printbed on which i clamp the Dauerdruckplatte using clips

Cheers
Björn

Chris (Nophead),
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>...I have to condition the glass somehow and then it works with just acetone with maybe a trace of ABS on the cloth I use.
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I'd agree that the slightest hint of ABS in the acetone when applied to a glass pre-coated surface works well. Often gaps appear in the coating when prints have been removed and a quick wipe smooths the gaps over, rejuvenating the entire surface.

What's you thinking on PET tape at this stage?
Tks.

I use PET tape on glass with ABS Acetone slurry and I never have parts lift or warp anymore. One thing that stopped the corners lifting or warping (for me at least) is that I lowered the bed temperature to 90-95c. I know everybody says 110c is best but I always had warping (yes I tested the temp with multiple thermometers to assure it was correct). But since I dropped the temp a little I never have any curled parts. I have probably made 200 things since I started this and not one suffered from the warping.

PET tape works well to start with for me but eventually the glue gives way and it lifts where the corners of parts are. I very occasionally wipe it with acetone and when it is getting very old I apply some ABS juice to rejuvenate it but the fact it starts lifting is a pain given how difficult it is to put on without bubbles.

If I could find a way of permanently bonding it to glass or metal it would be great.

I am now printing gears on my acrylic Mendel90 with just a little ABS juice on glass. The more times I print the better it gets. There is a spot at the front where I place the nozzle while it warms up so that gets an ABS blob placed on it every print. That sticks really well and gets hard to remove. so the act extruding ABS onto glass repeatedly makes it stick better each time.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I'm using Kapton sheets on mirror glass. Sticks better to the glass than to aluminum plate.

Works great for me and I can re-seat the sheet if I do get lift bubbles under it.

I did a video on re-seating the sheets.
Applying and re-seating Kapton Sheet.

I find it's more durable than the tape also.

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Komb'
Glankonian Protoforms

For those using diluted Elmer's glue, what ratio do you guys use of water to glue?

start at 10:1, but IME it works with a wide range of ratios.

crispy1 Wrote:
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> IME it works with a wide range
> of ratios.

I agree. I don't measure - I just squirt some glue into a seal-able cup of water until it looks good. Somewhere around 10:1.

Humm really wanting to try that elmers glue thing. Iv had terrible luck getting parts to stick on a Mendel max 1.5 Things that seemed to work on a prusa i2 don't on this printer

FF

Can someone give more info on "Dauerdruckplatte"? Is it a plastic? If so, from what "family" (polyolefin, polyester, PTFE....). Is there a generic equivalent? Melting temp, etc...? Available in the US?

Thanks.

I did a little web surfing and there are some reports (guesses?) that "Dauerdruckplatte" is basically, Garolite...a epoxy/fiberglass material. If so (big leap here) has anyone tried Garolite...which sounds pretty much like unclad PC board material...and if it is way better than PC board stock, why? Or is "Dauerdruckplatte" more like the cheaper phenolic/cloth or phenolic/paper PC board stock as opposed to FR materials....???

Bed materials appear to be the last black art left in ABS/PLA 3D printing....lots of empiricism and not much basic understanding of the adhersion physics....???

Sanjay from E3D seemed to recommend printing on Garolite(Bakelite?) aswell

I use Kapton tape on mirror. I got six mirror tiles for five bucks and cut each to fit my bed. The Kapton I got on ebay and is about 8.5 inches wide so I can cover the mirror for my Prusa Mendel completely with one piece. To put the Kapton on the glass I use the soapy water method. I read how to do this in Brian Evan's book and it works great. I do all six tiles at once so I can swap them out quickly if I need to. I've also started positioning prints at different locations on my bed so that I use all of the taped surface instead of just the center. Makes it last for quite a while. Once solved some power supply issues and got the temperature of the bed to go high enough, I've had no problems getting my parts to stick. In fact, I have to put them in the freezer now to get them off because they are sticking so well.

cheers,

KDog

I use Kapton tape on glass applied with the soap/water method. It sounds crazy but it works, especially if you have a spool of wide Kapton tape. It only takes 2 strips to cover my entire build surface. My prints don't even hint at warping as long as my bed height is close to correct. The glass I'm using is just a piece of glass from a picture frame that I cut down to size with a cheap glass cutter I bought at my local hardware store. I have a piece of tempered glass that I had custom-cut for this project, but it has nothing on my picture frame glass. The picture frame glass is thinner and cheaper and it has no trouble with the temperatures we're working with. If it breaks I can buy another one at my local dollar store.

What even works better in my opinion is window cleaning spray (In Holland we have 'Ajax', 'Glassex' and home-brands and are all blue colored).

What this does is first of all, it removes any kind of grease on the surface you're applying the kapton to, and secondly, it has better surface tension than the water/soap method and stick much easier and you don't accidentally move it when removing the fluids from underneath with a squeegee.

Last of all, you don't have to mix the water and soap in a bowl, and most households already have this window cleaner at home!

Oh, and finally, the fluids dry out much quicker from underneath the kapton. Just set the plate in the sun for an hour, or on the central heater, then use the squeegee again, and after that let is dry for another hour and it's ready to use!




sheck626 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I use Kapton tape on glass applied with the
> soap/water method. It sounds crazy but it works,
> especially if you have a spool of wide Kapton
> tape. It only takes 2 strips to cover my entire
> build surface. My prints don't even hint at
> warping as long as my bed height is close to
> correct. The glass I'm using is just a piece of
> glass from a picture frame that I cut down to size
> with a cheap glass cutter I bought at my local
> hardware store. I have a piece of tempered glass
> that I had custom-cut for this project, but it has
> nothing on my picture frame glass. The picture
> frame glass is thinner and cheaper and it has no
> trouble with the temperatures we're working with.
> If it breaks I can buy another one at my local
> dollar store.

Best and easiest for me is glass with beer painting. Paint before every print. Heat until 110C or higher.
I printed on kapton but parts didnot unstick after cooling. Now I'm happy.
I use [res.cloudinary.com]
czech light kozel/.
Personally I dislike beer. So one bottle is enough for month of printing.

You can try with sugar/water solution.

I had severe adherence issues at first - the trick was washing the glass carefully with dishwashing soap and water, very well rinsed, then drying it with newspaper sheets. The newspaper seems to be important - it does help for the parts to stick. This is a old known trick on car circles to smooth out tiny scratches on windshields for a little while and to get glasses super clean finish, some kind of micro/nano particles in the black ink used in newspapers. The old style is best of all, no plasticy glossy stuff, the plainer older type newspaper the better, but in a pinch semi glossy newer one works somewhat as well.
After that adherence was insane, it was really hard to get PLA prints off the bed, before even at 80c or so PLA wouldn't stick at all, no matter how often wiping with acetone etc.

Same trick + 110C bed temperature worked for ABS quite well. temp verified with IR thermometer, adherence starts at about 100C.
Only problem i have is on some hard parts like wade's big gear the gears lift a bit, but my bed barely gets to 110C even after insulation (MK1 heatbed), usually on free air tops out at around 103-106 depending on spot, lower on the edges, after print starts it insulates enough for the heat to rise upto 120c what i got measurements for.
So it's sounding like i should have dropped the temp to 90c or so after print starts to avoid the warps & lifting edges.

Now trying hairspray, at first no adherance at all, despite i had good adherence on the bed without hairspray. REALLY thick coatings after, it looks to have good adherence but still wade's big gear lifting a bit
Tomorrow it's time for ABS Juice