The 3D printed gun

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't get all fussy about the Federal Government
> taking away the right to own guns or vote for
> felony offenses. The law prohibiting violent
> felons from owning guns is not new. It dates back
> to 1934. States do the same damn thing as
> evidenced by the fact that only a handful of
> states allow felons to own firearms after serving
> their sentences. Most states don't allow this
> because they agree with the feds.
>

To agree with the concept of not allowing ex-convicts the right to keep and bear arms, you also have to agree with the concept that an ex-convict is otherwise perfectly safe to be among the rest of society.

This is what get's me... If a person is deemed to be too dangerous to legally own a gun, why isn't the same person too dangerous to be walking the streets? I mean, we devise a law to prevent a known law breaker from owning a gun... Really?

I guess things were different in the old days when you went to jail/prison and "paid your debt to society". When your debt was paid (sentence served), you were released and your rights and possessions (guns too) were returned to you. This concept seems long forgotten as ex-prisoners are not considered rehabilitated, but safe because we tell them to not have a gun and expect them to comply.

Sheesh. I suppose this is what happens when we demonize an object rather than the person's act.

---

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

To a certain extent I agree with you. I think the original law was a reaction to the prevalence of machine guns, street sweepers
and organized crime at the time. Wikipedia is a good source for and overview.
[en.wikipedia.org]

But at the same time I think you have to honestly look at recidivism rates and ask yourself if handing guns back to felons is a good idea.

So you're advocating that someone who used a gun in the past to commit a violent crime shouldn't be prevented from obtaining one once they're back on the street?

Knimrod Wrote:

> To agree with the concept of not allowing
> ex-convicts the right to keep and bear arms, you
> also have to agree with the concept that an
> ex-convict is otherwise perfectly safe to be among
> the rest of society.
>
> This is what get's me... If a person is deemed to
> be too dangerous to legally own a gun, why isn't
> the same person too dangerous to be walking the
> streets? I mean, we devise a law to prevent a
> known law breaker from owning a gun... Really?
>
> I guess things were different in the old days when
> you went to jail/prison and "paid your debt to
> society". When your debt was paid (sentence
> served), you were released and your rights and
> possessions (guns too) were returned to you. This
> concept seems long forgotten as ex-prisoners are
> not considered rehabilitated, but safe because we
> tell them to not have a gun and expect them to
> comply.
>
> Sheesh. I suppose this is what happens when we
> demonize an object rather than the person's act.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shutting down Defcad is not a political statement.
> Wilson may have broken the law. An an arms
> manufacturer he should have fully understood the
> ITAR rules before publishing his designs online.
> His claims under the research exemption are flimsy
> at best. Personally, I think he's screwed.

I think this was entirely a political statement - one of the 10 files listed in the ITAR takedown notice was "6. Sound Moderator – slip on". This design is from our very own Vik Olliver, and is still available on Thingiverse: [www.thingiverse.com]

So is Bre going to be served with an ITAR notice as well?

---

[haveblue.org]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you're advocating that someone who used a gun
> in the past to commit a violent crime shouldn't be
> prevented from obtaining one once they're back on
> the street?
>

I'm not advocating anything. Just pointing out the apparent lunacy in deeming an ex-felon fit for society by stripping their right to a gun. A law preventing a law-breaker from legally owning a gun, as a condition of their release into society, is ludicrous to me. As I said, I feel that if a person is deemed too dangerous to own or possess a weapon, they should be deemed too dangerous to be running around loose or unsupervised.

---

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

@ haveblue - Perhaps, but I doubt it. No one really got too upset when you published your 3D gun-smithing accomplishments to you blog. I hate to say this, but once the wheels of the state start in motion it can be a difficult thing to stop. Thank Wilson for making an issue out of it. He has no one to blame but himself. One cannot provoke the state and not expect a reaction, especially when you do it in such a public way.

@ Knimrod - You are conflating two things. Serving a sentence for a crime does not imply rehabilitation. The justice system doesn't expressly operate on the basis of "you stay in jail until you're fit to rejoin society". To a certain extent it does via parole boards. But if you do the time and you're alive at the end of the sentence they gotta let you out, no matter how anti-social you are. :/ The justice systems outcomes are not uniform, hence the blanket ban. Thank organized crime for that.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @ haveblue - Perhaps, but I doubt it. No one
> really got too upset when you published your 3D
> gun-smithing accomplishments to you blog.

It was more a rhetorical question - I don't imagine that Thingiverse or grabcad.com (where I think most of those designs originated) will be given takedown notices under ITAR, as all the noise is being made over the Liberator, and not VZ-58 front sights But then again, I remember Phil Zimmermann's fight against ITAR back in the 90s and all the silliness that went on during that time.

As for people upset by my blog, there have been plenty, I assure you (not so much now, of course - I don't have nearly as big of a target on my back as Cody does).

---

[haveblue.org]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't get all fussy about the Federal Government
> taking away the right to own guns or vote for
> felony offenses. The law prohibiting violent
> felons from owning guns is not new. It dates back
> to 1934. States do the same damn thing as
> evidenced by the fact that only a handful of
> states allow felons to own firearms after serving
> their sentences. Most states don't allow this
> because they agree with the feds.
>
> Are you going to argue against the NRA? They seen
> to agree with the feds on this point as we keep
> hearing over and over again. Does their mantra
> "keep guns out of the hands of criminals" sound
> familiar?
>
> As far as voting goes you should check this out.
> [felonvoting.procon.org]
> sourceID=286
> Looks like VT and ME are the only ones who get it
> right.
>
>
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 1968 Gun Control act, pffft. The same act that
> > removed the 2nd amendment from anyone who ever
> > committed a Federal crime and in the same act
> > removed the right to vote from the same people.
>
> > It was just an act to remove rights as voting
> has
> > nothing to do with firearms except both were
> > rights to be taken away forever.

Fact is that it used to be that once you served your time your debt to society was repaid and you would get your rights back but not since 1968 as far as voting is concerned. Why did the Feds remove that right hidden inside an act to remove firearms from felons? Firearm removal from violent felons I can see to some extent but why pay your debt back to society if you are never a whole person again because of a screw up you might have done?

Now, if the trend of incarceration continues eventually everyone will be a felon for something that would be the most trivial but felon you will be.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Knimrod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> akhlut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Don't get all fussy about the Federal
> Government
> > taking away the right to own guns or vote for
> > felony offenses. The law prohibiting violent
> > felons from owning guns is not new. It dates
> back
> > to 1934. States do the same damn thing as
> > evidenced by the fact that only a handful of
> > states allow felons to own firearms after
> serving
> > their sentences. Most states don't allow this
> > because they agree with the feds.
> >
>
> To agree with the concept of not allowing
> ex-convicts the right to keep and bear arms, you
> also have to agree with the concept that an
> ex-convict is otherwise perfectly safe to be among
> the rest of society.
>
> This is what get's me... If a person is deemed to
> be too dangerous to legally own a gun, why isn't
> the same person too dangerous to be walking the
> streets? I mean, we devise a law to prevent a
> known law breaker from owning a gun... Really?
>
> I guess things were different in the old days when
> you went to jail/prison and "paid your debt to
> society". When your debt was paid (sentence
> served), you were released and your rights and
> possessions (guns too) were returned to you. This
> concept seems long forgotten as ex-prisoners are
> not considered rehabilitated, but safe because we
> tell them to not have a gun and expect them to
> comply.
>
> Sheesh. I suppose this is what happens when we
> demonize an object rather than the person's act.


Exactly but where, and why, did the removal of voting happen? You strip the person of the right to have a say in who is to pass laws that are to control him/her and you snuck it inside a bill that stripped away, permanently, their second amendment right yet this same person has done their time and paid back their debt to society. They were released and allowed to walk among us but they are never allowed to go back to being a full American with all rights thereof.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Just a little follow-up.

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

How long before one is smuggled aboard a commercial aircraft?

[sacramento.cbslocal.com] with some interesting commentary: [www.reddit.com]

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a little follow-up.
>
> [www.dailymail.co.uk]
> w-Mail-On-Sunday-printed-plastic-gun-UK--took-boar
> d-Eurostar-stopped-security-scandal.html?ito=feeds
> -newsxml
>
> How long before one is smuggled aboard a
> commercial aircraft?
>
> [sacramento.cbslocal.com]
> nd-yee-proposes-regulations-on-3-d-printers-after-
> gun-test/ with some interesting commentary:
> [www.reddit.com]
> /senator_leland_yee_wants_3d_printers_to_be/

There you go as I said they would eventually try and do. Will it pass? Maybe or maybe not but the fear should be in the fact they are trying it.

Track printers but what about the parts to make my own as no real 3d printer person buys off the shelf an already made one. What impact does this have on all of us if it were to pass? Telling you something wicked this way comes in the guise of "protecting us".

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

From the dailymail article:

"Our reporters hid the gun in three parts in their clothing (but without the easily concealed firing pin and bullet, for safety reasons)."

Doesn't seem lethal without the pin and without bullets.

BTW easily concealed bullets? Who made that up?

... so the security has to scan for the ammunition ... or (common now!) ceramic knifes ... or maybe for pressurized air capsules and poisoned mini-darts

If someone wants to run havoc in a guarded train or plane, he can do this without any fire-weapon (or printed gun)

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

lajos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the dailymail article:
>
> BTW easily concealed bullets? Who made that up?


Well, the Daily Mail, apparently. Airport security had no issues finding the spent .45 casings I forgot I had in my luggage after a range trip. I'm guessing the Daily Mail is unaware that such things show up pretty easily - they only verified that yes, you can smuggle pieces of plastic on a train (though maybe it only works if you do your best 'Mission Impossible' poses as they did).

---

[haveblue.org]

Yeah, the Daily Mail article was pretty much ridiculous. I mean, not installing the nail "for safety reasons"? Come on! I understand that they won't easily get their hands on working ammunition for obvious reasons, but they pretty much bent their experiment to fit their intentions.

By the way, what about explosives sniffing dogs if metal detectors fail?

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone wants to run havoc in a guarded train
> or plane, he can do this without any fire-weapon
> (or printed gun)

Exactly.

the best solution to airport security would just be to have everyone submit to a lie detector test, simply ask "do you have any criminal intent". simple as that.

aduy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the best solution to airport security would just
> be to have everyone submit to a lie detector test,
> simply ask "do you have any criminal intent".
> simple as that.

Except lie detectors are only 98% accurate. That means 1 out of every 50 with criminal intent would get through, and 1 out of every 50 people without criminal intent would not be allowed on the plane. Seems like a recipe for disaster.

... I'm remembering some training methodes from the '70 (between 'super-learning and auto-hypnosis) that gives you the ability to controll your nervous system and brain-waves, so you can 'pass' or 'fail' such test by will ... so not really helpfull here

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Lie detectors are nowhere near 98% accurate, even in a controlled situation with plenty of time to work. Imagine if everyone at the airport had to pass a test that took 20 mins, it's bad enough when queues pile up for a 30 second baggage scan!
To paraphrase the following article, you could stop 100% of the terrorists by simply denying everyone a flight...

The Guardian

Zedsquared Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lie detectors are nowhere near 98% accurate, even
> in a controlled situation with plenty of time to
> work.

That's probably true. 98% is what I've seen quoted by test administrators, but I imagine it is exaggerated. I used it as a conservative value to prove a point.

whatever my point is, metal detectors are not the only way to detect guns, they always get people with like shampoo in their bags and make them throw them out, if they can find shampoo every time they can certain find something like a round of ammunition. One of my friends who is a cop got pulled aside way back before 911 by the tsa, they asked him about his bag and then they found traces of accelerant in it. obviously he had nothing, but what had happened was he had carried some ammunition in the bag 6 months earlier. six months is a long time to detect traces of some gunpowder residue. not to mention this was pre 911. so dont tell me that there arent ways of detecting "plastic" fire arms. anyfire arm uses some sort of propelant, whether it be powder liquid or gas there is a way to detect it, I assure you. The tsa will put their heads together, or someone will figure out a better way to detect these new weapons and then they will make money off of it, and everyone will forget.

... as said earlier - you don't need any fire-waepon or explosives to 'mass-kill' -- either pressurized air (=no detectable/visible fluids) as 'propellant' ... or simply a uncooked egg infected with some weird bacteria or viruses in your meal-bag

So this 'focussing' on 3D-printed guns seems more a 'political' dodge for me

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Viktor,

isn't that the issue though? Some politician is going to pick this up and run with it to make a name for him/her self. Facts seem to have little to do with political positions these days - at least in the US.

As an interesting development even Kim Dotcom has deleted the liberator files from megaupload. I thought for sure that they would have safe haven there.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Viktor,
>
> isn't that the issue though? Some politician is
> going to pick this up and run with it to make a
> name for him/her self. Facts seem to have little
> to do with political positions these days - at
> least in the US.
That is what I said last year and my only hope now is that this hobby doesn't get destroyed because of it.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

I think it is funny that the press is focusing on 3d printed guns when there are lots of people who made/make them out of metal for many, many years now. In fact it isn't hard to get plans for real guns and even some of the parts. If you have access to some machinery you can make all the parts. I know a few places that rent put their 5 axis machines and will cut what you want.

lotw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is funny that the press is focusing on
> 3d printed guns when there are lots of people who
> made/make them out of metal for many, many years
> now. In fact it isn't hard to get plans for real
> guns and even some of the parts. If you have
> access to some machinery you can make all the
> parts. I know a few places that rent put their 5
> axis machines and will cut what you want.

I can see why because the printer can sit on your coffee table or breakfast table and is easily accessible plus light weight enough to be mobile with it. Lets not forget that the politicians are also being whispered in their ears at how the status quo will be undermined if 'regular people' end up owning one.

Plain and simple it is just more control trying to be exerted to stop the masses from gaining any sort of control over their lives via being able to print what they want and when they want and where they want without the need of big business.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

The people whispering into the ears of politicians are paid by Stratasys, 3DS, et al. This is the wedge they need to pursue their collective agenda against reprap.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The people whispering into the ears of politicians
> are paid by Stratasys, 3DS, et al. This is the
> wedge they need to pursue their collective agenda
> against reprap.

Yes, but I firmly believe there are more who know that a 3d printer would hurt their bottom if too many fall into the hands of the consumer PLUS they know the technology will eventually allow other materials besides plastic which would destroy a lot of the modern business world. I believe destroying the modern businesses is a good thing as I am a "power to the people" sort of guy.

The problem lies in the fact that we people do not have the ability to plop billions into the coffers of politicians so we are never heard nor really thought of when laws are being worked on.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Why are all political systems paranoid control freaks.

This is just so stupid. I have all the tools and knowhow to build a machinegun if I wanted that would work. Hell I could build one that was powered by steam and fired ball bearings if I wanted, and make it lethal.

It says volumes about the kind of people that commit violent acts that they are usually so rubbish at it. The kind of people with real know how simply are not interested in doing such things because they are not stupid or unhinged.

I'm so sick of the cowardly reactions of people to everything and the retarded idea that banning everything makes it better. Or worse creating another parasitic bureaucracy to regulate it. And I'm sick of having freedoms took away for the sake or excuse of nutcases who do stupid things.

If they do anything, I will ignore it.

---

Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
[www.thingiverse.com]

Madkite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are all political systems paranoid control
> freaks.
>
> This is just so stupid. I have all the tools and
> knowhow to build a machinegun if I wanted that
> would work. Hell I could build one that was
> powered by steam and fired ball bearings if I
> wanted, and make it lethal.
>
> It says volumes about the kind of people that
> commit violent acts that they are usually so
> rubbish at it. The kind of people with real know
> how simply are not interested in doing such things
> because they are not stupid or unhinged.
>
> I'm so sick of the cowardly reactions of people to
> everything and the retarded idea that banning
> everything makes it better. Or worse creating
> another parasitic bureaucracy to regulate it. And
> I'm sick of having freedoms took away for the sake
> or excuse of nutcases who do stupid things.
>
> If they do anything, I will ignore it.

QFT and QFE!!

Fact is I remember when America went nutso back in the 1980's when you had the plans to build a nuclear device at your local library and the only thing stopping you from building one, so the govt said, was the lack of easily had fissile material. Well, can you imagine what is the easiest thing to regulate on a 3d printer? Just one item, then the coward politicians can sink back into their holes and tell their constitutes that they were there for them to protect them, and that item is the plastic filament but, of course, we people are working on making our own but the laws would still be there.

Just about the time I move to my final home and get my 3d printer I will become an outlaw for having one. Geeez, thanks for looking out for me USA govt. :/

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2013 04:44PM by Dark Alchemist.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.