The 3D printed gun

Looks like someone printed a more reliable, (nearly) all plastic gun on a Lulzbot. This one has a rifled barrel. A Much 'nastier' proposition than Defense Distributed's Liberator.

[www.forbes.com]

PeteD Wrote:
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> Looks like someone printed a more reliable,
> (nearly) all plastic gun on a Lulzbot. This one
> has a rifled barrel. A Much 'nastier' proposition
> than Defense Distributed's Liberator.
>
> [www.forbes.com]
> 20/25-gun-created-with-cheap-3d-printer-fires-nine
> -shots-video/
Well, this "hobby" is just doomed.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

@PeteD

Ok now I'm somewhat impressed. 8 shots through an all-plastic barrel is surprising.

I'd love to know how accurate his "rifling" is though.

the purpose of the rifling is to make it legal to own, if they really wanted to make it rifled, inserting a slightly modified spring would do the trick.

*scratches head*

Does it seem bass ackwards to anyone else that rifling a barrel, which makes a gun more accurate, would make it less legally onerous to own the gun?

no the point is there is a law prohibiting pistols to have a smooth bore, because it makes it very difficult for the forensics team to trace back the grooves in the bullet back to a specific gun if there are no grooves in the bullet. now in this case it probably wont make the grooves or even make the bullet spin, you need to have something that is harder than the bullets copper jacket to make it actually spin. however if you used un-jacketed lead bullets then you could be on to something, or even pre rifled bullets.

aduy Wrote:
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> no the point is there is a law prohibiting pistols
> to have a smooth bore, because it makes it very
> difficult for the forensics team to trace back the
> grooves in the bullet back to a specific gun if
> there are no grooves in the bullet. now in this
> case it probably wont make the grooves or even
> make the bullet spin, you need to have something
> that is harder than the bullets copper jacket to
> make it actually spin. however if you used
> un-jacketed lead bullets then you could be on to
> something, or even pre rifled bullets.

Yep, and the professionals (aka 'hitmen') have their barrels smoothed out for a reason.

Telling people that in enough time some SOB will print a gun and use it creating such sensationalism that laws will come down so hard and so fast that even this forum could possibly be in violation of them. I am serious sad at how these people are doing this and making it better and better then telling the world about for what purpose? In that last case his ego should have been in front of the plastic gun he created during one of the shots.

All of this 'stuff' reminds me of the quote from Jurrasic park, which I will paraphrase here, " they are so preoccupied with whether or not they can, they are not stopping to think if they should".

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

never mind the laws prohibiting them as they are as unenforceable as the the people who make the laws are accountable and are just a waste of time,

i am waiting to hear/see in the news "guys blows off finger with 3d printed gun" with his comment "it was a good idea at the time"

i've looked at the stls for a few of these out of interest, and to be honest not one thought has gone into structural integrity or the printing process at all when designing them, let alone things like printed orientation,

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-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

thejollygrimreaper Wrote:
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> never mind the laws prohibiting them as they are
> as unenforceable as the the people who make the
> laws are accountable and are just a waste of
> time,
>
> i am waiting to hear/see in the news "guys blows
> off finger with 3d printed gun" with his comment
> "it was a good idea at the time"
Yep, and some stupid law will be passed to 'protect us' from ourselves and I swear the worst laws are the ones that say they are doing that.

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Realistically they will never stop us

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-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

Nothing will happen with the printers. What will happen though is some knucklehead will blow his hand off with one of these printed guns. If one were serious about making a plastic gun with as much knowledge as it takes to build a good printer and get a good print, one could do it with a small lathe/mill combo. As anyone knows that has built a printer (or if you've printed with an assembled printer) you don't just press a button and have it come out like a microwave.

... even if I don't love this discussions, they have some merit - imagine, what could happen, if nobody post this sort of 'bullshit', but some criminals starts on their own (I think they have already) to develop such 'undetectable' guns from first 'blow-bombs' to perfect weapons with ceramic tubes and noone is aware of this until they're all over the world in use?

But my feeling says this can't be regulated anyway - every attempt to regulate something IP-related in a single country has only spread (and multiplied) the questioned items around the world, so there were even more IP-violations than before ... could be the same with the plastic-guns

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

VDX Wrote:
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> ... even if I don't love this discussions, they
> have some merit - imagine, what could happen, if
> nobody post this sort of 'bullshit', but some
> criminals starts on their own (I think they have
> already) to develop such 'undetectable' guns from
> first 'blow-bombs' to perfect weapons with ceramic
> tubes and noone is aware of this until they're all
> over the world in use?
>
> But my feeling says this can't be regulated anyway
> - every attempt to regulate something IP-related
> in a single country has only spread (and
> multiplied) the questioned items around the world,
> so there were even more IP-violations than before
> ... could be the same with the plastic-guns

Yep, but you know they will try it. The thing is they might end up doing a ban on the sale, and transportation, of manufactured printers and you must have a commercial license to buy the media. To hell with the stls as they can't do squat about that but they will come after the hardware if some idiot blows his hand off or uses it to take out a few people at a mall, or something. If a law came down like I said you could still get what you wanted but, then again, you can get drugs too and those are highly restrictive yet easily purchased via the black market. I can see it now 1k for a kg of ABS filament.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Actually stopping or increasing the price of filament won't solve that issue. Their are already groups working on making your own filastruders, more people would help out if that happens and we would all build our own and make are own filament. Banning guns has never stopped anyone who wanted one from getting one. Banning or trying to stop this will never work either.

... this 'plastic guns' wouldn't bother us very long -- there are several people and groups (including me) actually testing or developing powder-SLS (Selective-Laser-Sintering) ... so this should be too in the DIY-range before end of the year.

I'll bet a solid body, SLS-fabbed out of ceramic dust is much more rigid/stable compared to any plastic ... not least mentioning sintering metal powders to solid metal parts with any possible 3D-shape ...

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Seems like most forget that the 3mm filament essentially is / can be replaced with plastic welding rod. So strictly regulating filament or artificially raising the price will likely either result in increased sales of welding rod (if that isn't regulated because of whatever reason) or the plastic welding / processing industry causing a massive uproar...

@VDX

Would ceramic be a better material for a gun barrel than ABS plastic? I thought it would be too brittle of a material to be used in such an application.

lotw Wrote:
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> Actually stopping or increasing the price of
> filament won't solve that issue. Their are
> already groups working on making your own
> filastruders, more people would help out if that
> happens and we would all build our own and make
> are own filament. Banning guns has never stopped
> anyone who wanted one from getting one. Banning
> or trying to stop this will never work either.
Agreed. Funny thing is that banning, or outlawing, only ever keeps the law abiding in line but a criminal could care less.

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

the best material would be some sort of carbon fiber, they already use it in some barrels. anyways any glass or carbon fiber reinforced polymer is going to be the ultimate in undetectable weaponry. luckily 3d printers cant spit out glass fiber and carbon fiber into the plastic. although i hear some people are working on it, but there is no source of filament so a pellet fed one must be made.

PeteD Wrote:
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> @VDX
>
> Would ceramic be a better material for a gun
> barrel than ABS plastic? I thought it would be
> too brittle of a material to be used in such an
> application.

... normal ceramics are too brittle, but there are some polymer-ceramic 'alloys', that are used for ceramic knifes, scissors and such -- they are partially hard like normal ceramic, but overall elastic for their polymer-matrix.

Sinterd metal alloys are much better suited for weaponry, but here the 'not detectable' feature was the main focus, so pointed to ceramics instead

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

It has been iterated already. I'd rather iterate on the Prism Mendel anyday...

Would it be worth making some kind of statement from the RepRap community?

SheldonE Wrote:
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> Would it be worth making some kind of statement
> from the RepRap community?


You mean like: "You can take my 3D printer when you pry it from my cold dead hands!!!!"?

I was thinking something more along the lines of "We don't support the use of 3d printers to promote violence".

That is a neat idea in my opinion. Maybe also add some references to nice constructive designs like the Robohand.

What actually worries me right now is the 3D printed shotgun slug right now. Imagine getting hit by that! I wonder if surgeons can even pull out all of the plastic shrapnel or just have to leave some pieces in the body, leading to complications later on.
This thing is more "practical" than the 3D printed gun anyway in that it sort of works without endangering the user as much.

aduy Wrote:
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> no the point is there is a law prohibiting pistols
> to have a smooth bore, because it makes it very
> difficult for the forensics team to trace back the
> grooves in the bullet back to a specific gun if
> there are no grooves in the bullet.

A quaint idea, but entirely false. The AOW classification that would cover smooth bore pistols was created to cover such guns as the 1920s era Marble Game Getter. It was a cheap gun that combined a .22 barrel on top of a .410 barrel - good for shooting rats and varmints around the farm. However, at the time firearms were subject to an excise tax (the money went to conservation efforts), and in looking for a way out, the manufacturer insisted that the Game Getter was not in fact a gun, but an agricultural implement (I think they pointed to the use of a smooth bore). Thus the 1934 National Firearms Act needed a catch-all category (Any Other Weapon) for non Title I guns that were not classified as a SBS, SBR, DD, etc.

In short, forensics has zero to do with rifling being federally required.

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[haveblue.org]

SheldonE Wrote:
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> I was thinking something more along the lines of
> "We don't support the use of 3d printers to
> promote violence".

I certainly don't. But I see nothing wrong with applying 3D printing to my hobby of gunsmithing (though some on this thread seem to be abhorred by the idea).

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[haveblue.org]

Have Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aduy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > no the point is there is a law prohibiting
> pistols
> > to have a smooth bore, because it makes it very
> > difficult for the forensics team to trace back
> the
> > grooves in the bullet back to a specific gun if
> > there are no grooves in the bullet.
>
> A quaint idea, but entirely false. The AOW
> classification that would cover smooth bore
> pistols was created to cover such guns as the
> 1920s era Marble Game Getter. It was a cheap gun
> that combined a .22 barrel on top of a .410 barrel
> - good for shooting rats and varmints around the
> farm. However, at the time firearms were subject
> to an excise tax (the money went to conservation
> efforts), and in looking for a way out, the
> manufacturer insisted that the Game Getter was not
> in fact a gun, but an agricultural implement (I
> think they pointed to the use of a smooth bore).
> Thus the 1934 National Firearms Act needed a
> catch-all category (Any Other Weapon) for non
> Title I guns that were not classified as a SBS,
> SBR, DD, etc.
>
> In short, forensics has zero to do with rifling
> being federally required.
True, but a smooth bore does make it very hard to trace the bullet back to that weapon if all weapons were smooth bore. Besides, and I am not 100% sure on this, but isn't the main reason for the spiral carved bore to help the bullet to spin instead of being tossed out of the weapon?

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Have Blue Wrote:
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> SheldonE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>I see nothing wrong with
> applying 3D printing to my hobby of gunsmithing
> (though some on this thread seem to be abhorred by
> the idea).
A whole lot of people are in Europe where the thought of guns as a personal right has long since been removed from their collective minds.

Fact is I know I am not afraid of what you do but I am afraid of what the govt is going to do because you can do it.

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_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
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> True, but a smooth bore does make it very hard to
> trace the bullet back to that weapon if all
> weapons were smooth bore. Besides, and I am not
> 100% sure on this, but isn't the main reason for
> the spiral carved bore to help the bullet to spin
> instead of being tossed out of the weapon?

You are absolutely correct - the forensic value is certainly a welcome side effect of the rifling requirement (but I thought the historical basis for the requirement was pretty interesting).

And yes, the rifling is intended to actually bite into the bullet itself to provide gyroscopic stabilization. Muskets are really innacurate for this reason (and not because they fired a round ball - rifles of the time used a patched round ball as well, but the rifling made the projectile far more accurate).

To answer the other question someone had - the rifling in the printed barrel seems to have no effect at all in this case. The barrel bore expands so much from the cartridge pressure that I don't believe the bullet actually touches the lands on the way out the barrel. This is also why we weren't seeing velocities over 500 fps.

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[haveblue.org]