Well, PID MAX 8 was too slow to come up to temp. Back to PID MAX 16. Will post Kp Ki and Kd constants once I get them. Still going over temp though. I'm wondering changing some of the PID terms might let autotune work. Will report back.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

OK, after examining the Marlin temperature.cpp file I realized that the auto-tune routine does not work below a certain threshold for PID_MAX. So for reference I'm running my heater cartridge at 24V. PID_MAX is set to 64. With this setting the nozzle heats up really, really fast. For example, it take about 40 seconds to go from 30C to 265C, with an overshoot of 10C to 275C.

Auto-tune provided me with the following constants.

Kp: 2.94
Ki: 0.15
Kd: 14.05

Obviously these will need to be refined to eliminate overshoot, but they are a good start.

Right now I've got natural ABS loaded into the machine. Typically I'm extruding this at 240C with very consistent results using a J-head. The PrusaNozzle really wants to run this at right around 270 ~ 275C. Now this may be my particular setup as I only have a single screw applying pressure to the hobbed bolt (ghetto, but I'm too lazy to change it until it breaks) which in turn limits the pressure I can apply to the filament.

[i.imgur.com]

But all in all I'm really liking the nozzle so far. I'm going to print out Dizingof's dragon bowl tomorrow to see how it does.

But...I need to get up in 3 hours, so I have to end here.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

It probably just needs more power because stainless is not as good of a heat conductor in comparison to aluminum or brass. the temperature reading is accurate of the cartridge but the tip will not be as hot. but it doesn't matter as long as the temperature is consistent at the nozzle.

Check if your hobbed bolt isn't getting too hot?!

Aduy is right BTW, the heat has to go thru SS which is insulator. 270 is tad high tho. How quickly you print akhlut?

@akhlut: thank you for the updated links! Last time I tried manually altering the URL, the new site did not seem to be available.

I see. I attributed this higher temperature oddity more to the fact that the thermistor sits next to the heater cartridge. But I guess stainless steel not being a bad heat conductor outweighs that when the nozzle is further down from the heater block. Here, experimenting with lowering the heater block might bring temperatures down a little bit...certainly worth a try?

Also, any information about higher temperature materials like PET?
If the heater block has to be heated more than usual, the upper temperature limit of the thermistor might become a problem. Theoretically, some thermocouples can withstand these temperatures, but if I see things correctly, the thermistor is already fixed into place?

The prusanozzle site says you can buy at ultmachine but I don't see any listing on their site for it?

prusajr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Check if your hobbed bolt isn't getting too hot?!
>
> Aduy is right BTW, the heat has to go thru SS
> which is insulator. 270 is tad high tho. How
> quickly you print akhlut?


I have been thinking of buying a hot end nozzle and have been made much researches on this site. I see you said it is made from insulator and I have been told this is an absolute NO NO. I was phone a supplier to buy reprap extruder and they said that selling such an item was criminally fraudulent. I also found a thread [forums.reprap.org] where many experts came to conclusion that stainless was absolutly unworkable. I am told there are plenty of good designs available on the market at much cheaper, why are this new nozzle being sold when it should be open source hardware?
I chat to someone and they said you were one of main leading lights and forefather of open source repraps, why do you not give any information about your design and why do you try to undermine the sharing of all inforamtion to make better community designs?

Why do you not use vitreous enamel heaters and brass like all the better nozzles when it is know that stainless does not work, are you trying to play joke on innocent reprappers?

It seems crazy that people can steal ideas and make fortunes from the reprap and not give back any designs, why are there no designs and why no video to prove this works?

I was told all this must be proved and that I should buy a normal nozzle from supplier that I phoned, I am always want find truth so I decided I should ask question here before I make decide about what to I am buyed.

I am also find nothing for company and contact, address, phone, email, or registration, and no legal information, this is not legal for try trade without information. How can anyone know this if these do not workingas. Who is selling, they can disappear and never be found???

Not that I'm excited by this hotend, but you can find a rudimentary drawing here: [prusanozzle.org] , videos here: [prusanozzle.org] No RepRap wiki entry, though.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Also it is perfectly legal to trade in the EU without being a registered company, not sure about elsewhere.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

eikgnum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> prusajr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Check if your hobbed bolt isn't getting too
> hot?!
> >
> > Aduy is right BTW, the heat has to go thru SS
> > which is insulator. 270 is tad high tho. How
> > quickly you print akhlut?
>
>
> I have been thinking of buying a hot end nozzle
> and have been made much researches on this site. I
> see you said it is made from insulator and I have
> been told this is an absolute NO NO. I was phone a
> supplier to buy reprap extruder and they said that
> selling such an item was criminally fraudulent. I
> also found a thread
> [forums.reprap.org] where
> many experts came to conclusion that stainless was
> absolutly unworkable. I am told there are plenty
> of good designs available on the market at much
> cheaper, why are this new nozzle being sold when
> it should be open source hardware?
> I chat to someone and they said you were one of
> main leading lights and forefather of open source
> repraps, why do you not give any information about
> your design and why do you try to undermine the
> sharing of all inforamtion to make better
> community designs?
>
> Why do you not use vitreous enamel heaters and
> brass like all the better nozzles when it is know
> that stainless does not work, are you trying to
> play joke on innocent reprappers?
>
> It seems crazy that people can steal ideas and
> make fortunes from the reprap and not give back
> any designs, why are there no designs and why no
> video to prove this works?
>
> I was told all this must be proved and that I
> should buy a normal nozzle from supplier that I
> phoned, I am always want find truth so I decided I
> should ask question here before I make decide
> about what to I am buyed.
>
> I am also find nothing for company and contact,
> address, phone, email, or registration, and no
> legal information, this is not legal for try trade
> without information. How can anyone know this if
> these do not workingas. Who is selling, they can
> disappear and never be found???

Maybe you didn't mean it, but as you wrote it I feel insulted.

Do you realize I designed the Prusa Mendel, which is probably most widespread RepRap. I fight for Open Hardware everywhere I can. I speak on Open Hardware summit every year etc etc ?? For gods sake, I have Open Hardware logo tattoo!

Nozzle is GPL v3, drawing is available right now and soon will be much better.

Obviously SS work, if you would care to see the site and watch the videos. I chose it to be used for whole barrel because I like the fact it is completely food safe. It is god damn hard to make, that is why it costs so much. Not to mention it comes completely preassembled, with mounting plate and free fan, ask your seller on the phone about that.

The website is just product site, you have links to distributors I have. I have obviously my own company which is named Prusa Research s.r.o. (feel free to check my EU VAT CZ24213705).

Sorry to others I lost my cool :-)

Well all I can say is that you didn't DO enough research not to notice that Josef Prusa is a big part of the reprap community and having contributed not one printer but 3 printer types and now offers one of the best hotends on the market that can do different types of plastic.

So leave off and grow a brain..

Auzze

eikgnum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> prusajr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Check if your hobbed bolt isn't getting too
> hot?!
> >
> > Aduy is right BTW, the heat has to go thru SS
> > which is insulator. 270 is tad high tho. How
> > quickly you print akhlut?
>
>
> I have been thinking of buying a hot end nozzle
> and have been made much researches on this site. I
> see you said it is made from insulator and I have
> been told this is an absolute NO NO. I was phone a
> supplier to buy reprap extruder and they said that
> selling such an item was criminally fraudulent. I
> also found a thread
> [forums.reprap.org] where
> many experts came to conclusion that stainless was
> absolutly unworkable. I am told there are plenty
> of good designs available on the market at much
> cheaper, why are this new nozzle being sold when
> it should be open source hardware?
> I chat to someone and they said you were one of
> main leading lights and forefather of open source
> repraps, why do you not give any information about
> your design and why do you try to undermine the
> sharing of all inforamtion to make better
> community designs?
>
> Why do you not use vitreous enamel heaters and
> brass like all the better nozzles when it is know
> that stainless does not work, are you trying to
> play joke on innocent reprappers?
>
> It seems crazy that people can steal ideas and
> make fortunes from the reprap and not give back
> any designs, why are there no designs and why no
> video to prove this works?
>
> I was told all this must be proved and that I
> should buy a normal nozzle from supplier that I
> phoned, I am always want find truth so I decided I
> should ask question here before I make decide
> about what to I am buyed.
>
> I am also find nothing for company and contact,
> address, phone, email, or registration, and no
> legal information, this is not legal for try trade
> without information. How can anyone know this if
> these do not workingas. Who is selling, they can
> disappear and never be found???

Hmmm, I'm not so sure on this one. I saw a plain piece of aluminum that had been cut into a strange shape, anodized black, had the name "PRUSA" cut into the top, and even had what appeared to be a signature on it. This may be a conspiracy!

eikgnum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you not use vitreous enamel heaters and brass
> like all the better nozzles when it is know that stainless
> does not work, are you trying to play joke on innocent
> reprappers?

because vitreous enamel resistors fail too easily. I've chucked a good dozen or so, gave up and went to cartridge heaters. Have only destroyed one cartridge heater so far and that's probably because it was designed for 12v and I was feeding it 28v.

> I also found a thread
> [forums.reprap.org] where
> many experts came to conclusion that stainless was
> absolutly unworkable.

wait, so the Arcol v4s that I've been using with excellent success for the past year or so can't possibly work?

Arcol v4 prints Emmett's lamp base, Arcol v4 prints screwable jewellery box - resulting print <-- you think these are photoshopped?

SS works great as a thermal break, as long as the thin-wall is thin and/or long enough and there's at least a little heatsinking at the top.

Also, the guy in the thread you linked is a complete idiot- wilfully ignorant and attacks anyone who tries to help; by no means any sort of expert.. oh want that's you isn't it? You made a new forum account to troll people who have actually contributed lots of useful stuff to the community; I bet you're proud... Did you think reversing your nickname and adding a bit was a stroke of genius too?

---

-----------------------------------------------
Wooden Mendel
Teacup Firmware

I don't think the hobbed bolt is getting too hot. I've run 0.5 and 0.35 Jheads with the single tension-bolt setup and both functioned normally. I didn't have the heated chamber on for the test either. Typically that runs at 40 ~ 42C, but it was at an ambient 20C last night, so that shouldn't have affected the grip. I also went and cleaned the hobbed bolt before I started in on this, so it should be nice and clean still. Bolt is a hyena from arcol, which is the best I've found, and infinitely better than my own homebrew hobbed bolts.

So the temp may have been too high, I'll admit to that. The ABS was quite a bit more pungent than it usually is, so it was significantly hotter than I usually run it. I'm trying to determine a speed/temp curve so I can get reliable extrusion in a given speed band. Once I get these figures I'll post them and the curve to this thread. I'll try and get that curve determined tonight.

Typically I'm extruding at 50mm/s as I'm still smashing bugs out of my new Z-axis drive train (new X-ends, 10mm Trapezoidal screws, flange nuts, silicone tubing and nopheads couplers). Once I get some things worked out I'll probably push for higher speeds, but throwing a 300mm around very quickly isn't all that easy. I may have to move to a NEMA 23 to get a faster Y.

And I'll give zero retract a shot.

But all in all a good first night. Too bad I have to work today. More to come.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

eikgnum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> prusajr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Check if your hobbed bolt isn't getting too
> hot?!
> >
> > Aduy is right BTW, the heat has to go thru SS
> > which is insulator. 270 is tad high tho. How
> > quickly you print akhlut?
>
>
> I have been thinking of buying a hot end nozzle
> and have been made much researches on this site. I
> see you said it is made from insulator and I have
> been told this is an absolute NO NO. I was phone a
> supplier to buy reprap extruder and they said that
> selling such an item was criminally fraudulent. I
> also found a thread
> [forums.reprap.org] where
> many experts came to conclusion that stainless was
> absolutly unworkable. I am told there are plenty
> of good designs available on the market at much
> cheaper, why are this new nozzle being sold when
> it should be open source hardware?
> I chat to someone and they said you were one of
> main leading lights and forefather of open source
> repraps, why do you not give any information about
> your design and why do you try to undermine the
> sharing of all inforamtion to make better
> community designs?
>
> Why do you not use vitreous enamel heaters and
> brass like all the better nozzles when it is know
> that stainless does not work, are you trying to
> play joke on innocent reprappers?
>
> It seems crazy that people can steal ideas and
> make fortunes from the reprap and not give back
> any designs, why are there no designs and why no
> video to prove this works?
>
> I was told all this must be proved and that I
> should buy a normal nozzle from supplier that I
> phoned, I am always want find truth so I decided I
> should ask question here before I make decide
> about what to I am buyed.
>
> I am also find nothing for company and contact,
> address, phone, email, or registration, and no
> legal information, this is not legal for try trade
> without information. How can anyone know this if
> these do not workingas. Who is selling, they can
> disappear and never be found???

Ok guys lets all take a deep breath and relax. This person just joined and you can see this is their first post. They obviously are still a newbie and have a whole lot to learn. eikgnum you really need to spend some time googling and reading this site. There is a lot you need to learn.

The site for the prusa nozzle and related information is still being worked on by Josef afaik. It takes a whole lot more work to get a product ready for sale then it does to release it under open source. I am sure that all related information will be updated on the related sites in the near future.

Great to hear akhlut. I have here one LulzBot printer modified to run with my nozzle and I print there at 245°C :-/
But I had to mount a fan pointing at hobbed bolt, otherwise it gets unreliable. On i3 it is fine.

It is really interesting new experience, for example I am able to extruder pla from 190°C upto 280°C :-)

eikgnum,

welcome to reprap! It's good to ask questions. We really like questions around here. But at the same time you should consider phrasing your questions in as non-confrontational way as possible. We are a community founded on respect for our fellow members and our common interests and goals. We are all working to make things better!

That thread you point to is old, and as you know technology advances day by day. There are quite a few stainless steel hotends available now - some that are really good too. So the material may be "wrong" in one sense, but "right" in another. It depends on your objective. I think stainless steel hotends make a whole lot of sense. Granted the material is wrong for conducting heat, but at the same time that is a very good thing if we don't want to conduct heat up the barrel to the extruder and want a very short melt zone. With the proper design stainless steel is the perfect material for the application - cheap, easily obtained, widely available and has the material properties that fit the application. Yes there were technical hurdles to be overcome, and they have been. So now we test. We iterate, and in doing so we learn what works and what doesn't.

Good luck in your reprap adventure! And remember, if you have a question make sure you ask - someone here has the answer.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Josef,

that is interesting. I've never had a filament slip cause by a heated hobbed bolt, and I run my machines hot.

I have a feeling that this setup will provide a lot more control than I'm used to. Plastics seem to be performing in a much wider usable band than other hotends - indicating that we may be able to fine-tune an extrusion profile to a given temp and flow. And I haven't gotten a chance to measure the temp at the top of the barrel yet with the hotend at temp. I'll toss a thermistor on there to see how high it goes.

Also, I've got some ceramic insulating tape lying around. I'm thinking about wrapping the heater block in that to make it more efficient. I've done this to my J-heads and it helps their performance quite a bit.. Thoughts?

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut
If you insulate the heater it will be pretty darn effective, heat basically doesnt escape thru the stainless :-)

That's what I'm thinking. It will make the cartridge work less. The real plus to me is cutting down on the radiated heat. Having a superhot AL block so close to the model may be an issue if not printing quickly. Also will help keep the X carriage and extruder cooler. But maybe I'm being too aggressive in my approach - it might be perfectly OK to run bare.

But I'll wrap it up and then re-run PID as this will surely change the constants. Luckily the heater block can be removed in about 2 seconds!

I have a busy night ahead.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

this hotend looks very nice!
does somebody got experience with PLA Jams on this Hotend?
Its the last point holding me back from ordering

mrc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this hotend looks very nice!
> does somebody got experience with PLA Jams on this
> Hotend?
> Its the last point holding me back from ordering
>

Sir RichRap approved it for PLA himself ;-)

Insulated the heater block with ceramic tape and re-installed it on the nozzle. One thing to note - it is very difficult to remove the heater block once its been heated up. But it eventually came apart. Re-installing the block was much easier than taking it off.

PID autotune complete.
Kp: 4.05
Ki: 0.3
Kd:13.54

Changed a little bit, so the insulation seems to have some effect.

[i.imgur.com]

I've also come to the conclusion that I need to print ABS at a whopping 280C. More on that in the AM.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Prusa should come out with his own thermistor table.

280 is HOT. How does your carriage look? Do you use the mounting plate I provided?

Quote
prusajr
Do you realize I designed the Prusa Mendel, which is probably most widespread RepRap. I fight for Open Hardware everywhere I can. I speak on Open Hardware summit every year etc etc ?? For gods sake, I have Open Hardware logo tattoo!

Nozzle is GPL v3, drawing is available right now

Not that my opinion counts here, but when redesigning the Mendel you did in my opinion much better. Your work was published early and suitable to be rebuilt by DIYers.

No such things with the nozzle. Hard to manufacture even on traditional machines (your own words), the provided drawing is not usable for anything, you simply violate the GPL at this point in time, you're much closer to MakerBot habits on this one. And having a tattoo doesn't change that.

That said, feel free to continue on this path. It supports my interpretation of what "Open Source" is.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

hi,
Traumflug " Not that my opinion counts here " you said it,, prusajr given this community a damn sight more than you I believe and your comment weren't welcomed or justified the hotend is a one of the most important part of the printer, so show some respect next time.
jinx

prusajr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe you didn't mean it, but as you wrote it I
> feel insulted.

I am sorry if you feel insulted, but I know nothing of your nozzle and only repeat what I am told in the hope that someone can explain what is truth, I ask question because it is not always best to believe what is told by shop selling product, I think always shop will say competitors product is not good!

I was wary of what seller told me because he saw so forceful and was saying it was not legal to sell items that does not work, and that he could sell best tried and tested nozzles.

>
> Do you realize I designed the Prusa Mendel, which
> is probably most widespread RepRap. I fight for
> Open Hardware everywhere I can. I speak on Open
> Hardware summit every year etc etc ?? For gods
> sake, I have Open Hardware logo tattoo!
>
I know you are one of kings of reprap and I said I saw as forefather, maybe even as good as Mr bowyer who is god in original creation of reprap.

> Nozzle is GPL v3, drawing is available right now
> and soon will be much better.
>
I am sorry if I could not find the drawings, again, I was told by the seller of other nozzles that prusa nozzle was not open source.

> Obviously SS work, if you would care to see the
> site and watch the videos. I chose it to be used
> for whole barrel because I like the fact it is
> completely food safe. It is god damn hard to make,
> that is why it costs so much. Not to mention it
> comes completely preassembled, with mounting plate
> and free fan, ask your seller on the phone about
> that.
>
I was told to look at the thread about new nozzle that I linked as seller told be it showed that stainless did not work, in that thread it said nozzles were cheap in mass production and would cost maybe 1 euro, but I see that all disagree and the nozzle was never available as it did not work.

I will tell seller what I have found out, but I also would like to speak to prusa nozzle seller on the phone and this is not possible as website is very anonymous.

> The website is just product site, you have links
> to distributors I have. I have obviously my own
> company which is named Prusa Research s.r.o. (feel
> free to check my EU VAT CZ24213705).
>
> Sorry to others I lost my cool :-)

How can people contact your distributors?

Auzze Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well all I can say is that you didn't DO enough
> research not to notice that Josef Prusa is a big
> part of the reprap community and having
> contributed not one printer but 3 printer types
> and now offers one of the best hotends on the
> market that can do different types of plastic.
>
> So leave off and grow a brain..
>
> Auzze
>

I think you are insane, evil, or stupid in your reply, you answer no questions and simply try to insult and stop people asking questions with your reply '> So leave off and grow a brain..'

Having a brain does not answer questions if there is no information available, I have spent many many hours trying to find information on this nozzle, with your reply '> Well all I can say is that you didn't DO enough> research' you make an assumption with no proof, if there is information that you know of why do you not post links?

You say prusa has made great things before, I have found absolutly no information of performance about any previous nozzles or this current one. Being a good tennis player does not make one the best brain surgeon in the world, what is your specialisation 'auzze' being an ignorant troll?

I would not mind you saying such things as if you were devils advocate if it actually highlighted some other useful point, but your comment is of absolutly no relevance or use.

Stop speaking like a troll and give a reasonable answer with useful information and logical conclusions or shut up and stop adding pointless noise to this thread!


I wonder if admin could delete your account for such behaviour?

Triffid_Hunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> because vitreous enamel resistors fail too easily.
> I've chucked a good dozen or so, gave up and went
> to cartridge heaters. Have only destroyed one
> cartridge heater so far and that's probably
> because it was designed for 12v and I was feeding
> it 28v.
>
> wait, so the Arcol v4s that I've been using with
> excellent success for the past year or so can't
> possibly work?
>
> Arcol v4 prints Emmett's lamp base, Arcol v4
> prints screwable jewellery box - resulting print
> <-- you think these are photoshopped?
>
> SS works great as a thermal break, as long as the
> thin-wall is thin and/or long enough and there's
> at least a little heatsinking at the top.
>
> Also, the guy in the thread you linked is a
> complete idiot- wilfully ignorant and attacks
> anyone who tries to help; by no means any sort of
> expert.. oh want that's you isn't it? You made a
> new forum account to troll people who have
> actually contributed lots of useful stuff to the
> community; I bet you're proud... Did you think
> reversing your nickname and adding a bit was a
> stroke of genius too?

I do not know what you are saying, I was simply asking a question so I could better make a decision on what to buy, I was told the information I posted by a seller and wanted to better verify what I was told.

Who in thread is ignorant, should I ignore the thread, where is better thread with onformation about stainless nozzles?

Where is arcol nozzle information?

It seems that there is no good information about what is best, only people talking hype with no proof, this is I think why so many fail, I know this is education, but it is wrong education. I will not needlessly elaborate further, I would just like some good comparison informations.