Opinion on situation with Lulzbot

I recently had a situation with Lulzbot that I want to get some opinions on.

For a bit of history, I have ordered from Lulzbot quite a few times over the past year and always been happy with their products and their service.

I have ordered filament from them several times in the past.


Last week I bought filament, and here is the situation:

I look at different colors, some are out of stock, I find white in stock.

I add it to my cart.

I go to my cart, all looks good, I go to checkout.

I checkout as I always do, get an email confirming order.

2 days later I decide to look at the email to check to see if I can go on the site and get a status for shipping, and I notice I was charged about $40 for a $42 roll of filament.

I immediately email them asking them to cancel the order, this is a sunday.

I call first thing Monday morning, and they tell me that it was shipped from UK, and already shipped so too late to cancel. I express my disappointment that there was no notice of the stock coming from UK, and I never even knew that was possible as every time I ordered in the past things were eiither in stock or out of stock, and the shipping prices were always very reasonable.

I emailed my disappointment to them too, and they offered me a discount on shipping on my next roll of filament.

Now, I hold myself accountable for not being more careful and looking at the shipping price before my order, I readily acknowlege that. That said, I had in my mind there shipping was very reasonable, and I trusted the company.

I feel they should have done a much better job notifying me prior to actually clicking accept order that this was shipping from out of the country, and it was insanely expensive.

I think this is a flaw on their site.

The bigger issue I have is I feel they should refund my shipping costs. I know I should have done a better job, but I trusted them, and it bit me in the ass.

I don't think I will ever order from them again after this. I feel a company should hold themselves accountable in this situation as well as the customer, and should have done more than offer me a discount on a ~$7 shipping fee. To me this is more about how a company treats customers than anything.

I would be curious to get some opinions. I am open minded, and know I am partially at fault, but I am pretty pissed off about this.

I live in Canada. We get hit hard on shipping domestically and you wouldn't believe what it costs us for shipping from the US.

Lots of companies ship UPS only. I only deal with these companies as a last resort. $100 of filament could easily cost me $75 in shipping. The ratio only gets a little better as the order goes up because a substantial amount of UPS charges are based on the value of the contents.

A few companies are aware of this and offer USPS shipping. I know it's a hasstle for them but it is hugely appreciated on this side of the border. I would never order anything UPS that I could get elsewhere via USPS.

The point here is I've become an expert on shipping costs, brokerage, and the other charges UPS and FedEx have invented. It's a cat and mouse game.

I've had to become vigilant about ordering and make sure I have the shipping figured out before ordering. Occasionally, a company will ship UPS when I have an invoice for USPS shipping. I refuse those packages.

It would help if vendors were more sensitive and forthright with shipping. I think most see shipping as an afterthought but posts like yours might help them understand shipping is top of mind for some customers. The situation is quite a change from what it was only a few years ago.

I guess I'm on Lulzbot's side on this one. Buyer beware. They didn't steal from you. ... but Lulzbot would be well advised to do a better job if they want to keep your business and attract new business.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2013 06:37PM by Tom Brown.

"IF" the info about shipping was on your check out page I would find in their favor. Yes it would be nice if they had a big red flashing sign saying it was shipping from out of the country but in the end, they are out the shipping and so you expect them to take a loss on the order because you did not read the check out page.

I buy a lot online (thousands of purchases a year) and I always read the total on every one before hitting submit. If it looks like a funny total I then investigate why and then I can decide to continue or not.

So I think they owe you nothing but that does not mean they should not learn from this and add ample warning about shipping.

I have run several online stores for 25+ years and I include every bit of info on my sites I could think of that customers may have. I make it easy to read and easy to find yet I still constantly get the same questions over and over. So rule of thumb is shoppers tend to ignore text and don't read terms and conditions. Not talking about those pages with 10 paragraphs of legal mumbo jumbo but simple things like one that's on all of my sites "Orders from outside the U.S. will need to pay for extra shipping" it's in large 18 point font in red italic on my pages but I constantly have purchasers ask "Why are you charing me shipping, I already paid for my order" I even have a FAQ page explaining it in detail and the link is at the end of the large warning on each page "Click here to find out more" but still few actually read it.

If I had any indication whatsoever that it was even possible to be buying from outside of the country, I would say it was 100% on me.

However, having bought multiple times from them in the past, shipping from PA, USA, and having good shipping prices, I think this one is more on them than on me. They need to do a better job of letting customers know they are buying from overseas, and that the shipping prices are = to the cost of the product they are buying.

I need to be more careful, and I have learned a lesson, but IMO they screwed me over, and offering ~$3-$7 is just not enough, and shows a lack of respect for customers.

I was seriously considering buying a Taz from them, now I am really thankful that I did not, I just don't feel comfortable buying a ~$2000 printer from a company that would screw their customers like that.

My $0.02

Just for the heck of it I went to their site and went through the steps of buying just to see what it said and there at the bottom in the section where you choose your payment method it says "Standard international Shipping $42.67. I still say you did not pay enough attention.

I have acknowledged that I should have paid more attention.

I'm not absolving myself of blame.

That said, I still feel badly mislead. I trusted them and their site, and I got burned for it.

For a US company, In stock and in stock in London are two very, very different things. I was told in stock, I still think its wrong.

You keep saying that, but you don't really mean it. If they are not at fault then they by definition haven't "screwed over", "misled", "broken trust", or caused anyone to "get burned". That basket page is exactly what I would expect from any company. You were given all of the costs involved up front for approval, and you approved it. The fact that they gave you a cupon is already above and beyond, I don't see any reason for them to eat any extra costs because of your mistake.

just to point out: the usa isn't the center of the world.

we (the rest of the world) pay a lot for shipping to, so get used to it.
the FAQ on lulzBot is more than clear enough that if you find shipping to high, you can mail them BEFORE you order.
the fact that they give you a discount on your next shipping is something they didn't even had to do.

What if you accidentally bought 2 spools because you forgot you already added one? You would have caught the mistake before you paid by looking at the total. I probably wouldn't have noticed the international shipping from a company I knew was domestic either. But I would have noticed the total was double and gone looking for the problem. I've nearly screwed myself several times by having leftovers in the cart, but caught it from the total. You can blame them for not pointing out the unexpected situation about shipping, but you can't blame them for your failure to notice the out of whack final payment amount.

I always check the price before I pay and always notice that something is not right if it is. So I can't really say it's their fault, I would've seen it and sent them a message. However, I understand not everyone is so sharp all the time and indeed it is weird that they ship from a storage in the UK.

Mislead? Don't think so.

possenier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just to point out: the usa isn't the center of the
> world.
>
> we (the rest of the world) pay a lot for shipping
> to, so get used to it.
> the FAQ on lulzBot is more than clear enough that
> if you find shipping to high, you can mail them
> BEFORE you order.
> the fact that they give you a discount on your
> next shipping is something they didn't even had to
> do.


This is not about thinking the US is the center of the world. This is a stupid comment.

In fact, there are many reprap companies outside of the US that I really wish I could buy from, because I know how great their stuff is, but I specifically don't even think about it becuase I know how much shipping costs.

This is about not even knowing it's possible that a company has a concept called international shipping, having bought from them many times in the past.

Just to be more clear. Here are the first 4 times pricing came up, all of which I checked very carefully. The only one I did not check was the final one, mostly because I was distracted actually with a print I had going on for about 6 hours up to that point, and in the back of my mind I thought the only thing left to check was shipping, and I buy from them knowing they have reasonable shipping prices, or at least up until that point.

Here are 4 images of what I had seen up to the final point of the picture shown above:








Nobody thinks that this should have been more clear somewhere on these 4 places?

Again, I should have been more careful, I accept and fully agree with that. My whole point is that somwehere on these 4 pages they should have been some indication of international shipping, or stock in another country. If I were on a site that is clearly known as an international company, that would be one thing, but Lulzbot is a Colorado based company, who ships out of PA.

tmorris9 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just for the heck of it I went to their site and
> went through the steps of buying just to see what
> it said and there at the bottom in the section
> where you choose your payment method it says
> "Standard international Shipping $42.67. I still
> say you did not pay enough attention.

Just to be clear on this, this is a different screen than I saw in the exact same place. If you look at my 3rd and 4th image, it shows what I saw. Probably because I was logged in and you were not.

On the review order, it does in fact show the international shipping, which I clearly messed up on, however I don't think it's fair to have given me a price 4 times prior to that with no mention of international shipping, or where stock was located.

The original two items I wanted to buy, different colors were flat out of stock. I had no way of knowing that this was only in stock in a different country, and never even knew it to be possible from this vender.

Not trying to absolve myself ,but I do think plenty of blame can go to the company as well.

AVRkire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tmorris9 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just for the heck of it I went to their site
> and
> > went through the steps of buying just to see
> what
> > it said and there at the bottom in the section
> > where you choose your payment method it says
> > "Standard international Shipping $42.67. I
> still
> > say you did not pay enough attention.
>
> Just to be clear on this, this is a different
> screen than I saw in the exact same place. If you
> look at my 3rd and 4th image, it shows what I saw.
> Probably because I was logged in and you were
> not.
>
> On the review order, it does in fact show the
> international shipping, which I clearly messed up
> on, however I don't think it's fair to have given
> me a price 4 times prior to that with no mention
> of international shipping, or where stock was
> located.
>
> The original two items I wanted to buy, different
> colors were flat out of stock. I had no way of
> knowing that this was only in stock in a different
> country, and never even knew it to be possible
> from this vender.
>
> Not trying to absolve myself ,but I do think
> plenty of blame can go to the company as well.

something i want to point out is that in a lot of these online shop packages there's a lot of quirks and quibbles that the owner has no real control over unless they want to learn java or ruby and then start decifering what can be very large amounts of seemingly alien language text to do somthing trivial like removing a redundant button,

a classic example is shopify where the shipping doesn't get calculated until after the customer has entered in paypal details and is then taken back to the store, other packages have a few interesting quirks to them as well , a lot of people would be very suprised at how little control there is over some of this stuff , you'll find they don't have the capability in the package to do things like add a shipping calculator under the "add to cart" button

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

thejollygrimreaper Wrote:

> something i want to point out is that in a lot of
> these online shop packages there's a lot of quirks
> and quibbles that the owner has no real control
> over unless they want to learn java or ruby and
> then start decifering what can be very large
> amounts of seemingly alien language text to do
> somthing trivial like removing a redundant
> button,
>
> a classic example is shopify where the shipping
> doesn't get calculated until after the customer
> has entered in paypal details and is then taken
> back to the store, other packages have a few
> interesting quirks to them as well , a lot of
> people would be very suprised at how little
> control there is over some of this stuff , you'll
> find they don't have the capability in the package
> to do things like add a shipping calculator under
> the "add to cart" button


I understand that. That said, if that were my company, I would offer to do more for the customer than offer a $3-$5 discount on their next purchase. I personally would have given a $35 or so credit (difference between normal shipping and this international shipping) to keep the customer happy.

I personally would have even been fine with a $20 credit or so, saying that there is equal blame in the situation, even though I think they should do more personally.

To me, this is about more than the money at this point, it is about company integrity, and how a company treats its customers.

So, you don't see the shipping cost there?

Because I don't pay by credit card, and always, when I pay through online transaction, I get the shipping cost on the quote, so maybe it is a bit misleading yes..

Ohmarinus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, you don't see the shipping cost there?
>
> Because I don't pay by credit card, and always,
> when I pay through online transaction, I get the
> shipping cost on the quote, so maybe it is a bit
> misleading yes..


When I went through the process again, the only place I saw the shipping was after I put my credit card info in, and review the final order. Not one spot prior to the review order, including the cart, the payment page, the page itself, none had anything about international shipping.

Shipping for online orders is always a critical thing for me. I never hit the go button until I know how much it will be. Please don't blame a good company for how much their shipping is. They shouldn't have to pay for this mistake and shouldn't be put on the spot about it either. It's frustrating, I know, but that's life online.

I live in an area of the U.S. where shipping costs vary wildly so it becomes the deal maker or breaker for everything I order. Amazon Prime helps tons. In general UPS rates are the worst, USPS is the best.

KDog

Im not blaming anyone for their shipping prices. I am blaming them because I was mislead into thinking a product was in stock, when actually it was in stock in another country. And I don't think their site does any service in letting customers know that. I have taken blame plenty of times on this thread, IMO the company needs to take some blame as well, and do better by it's customers than offer $3-$5 off shipping after charging me $47 to ship a $42 item.

Quote
AVRkire
Not trying to absolve myself

It is EXACTLY what you are trying to do. You were careless and didn't check the shipping quote prior to checking out. And I am definitely sure the shipping amount was on the invoice that you accepted when you made your payment.

Yes, Lulzbot should be more explicit on the fact they can ship from the US, from Toronto and from London, UK. They are aware of the situation, and as thejollygrimreaper said the problem is their shopping cart software is limited, they are looking into modifying it, see [forum.lulzbot.com]

It would probably be a good idea in the meanwhile to add some warning in the product description, and that's what I'll suggest them.

But it is YOUR responsibility for accepting those charges. I placed an order from them as well, and the shipping is indeed shown in the invoice BEFORE clicking on the button to go ahead.

Asking them for an almost complete refund of the shipping charge is ludicrous. You want THEM to eat up the charge and take responsibility for YOUR mistake? If they do that for you, they'll have to do it for every careless buyer with a sorry excuse. I'm sorry but sometimes you reach a point where the customer is wrong.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 05:20PM by NormandC.

NormandC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
AVRkire
> Not trying to absolve myself
>

>

> Yes, Lulzbot should be more explicit on the fact
> they can ship from the US, from Toronto and from
> London, UK.

>They are aware of the situation, and
> as thejollygrimreaper said the problem is their
> shopping cart software is limited, they are
> looking into modifying it, see
> [forum.lulzbot.com]#
> p739
>
> It would probably be a good idea in the meanwhile
> to add some warning in the product description,
> and that's what I'll suggest them.
>
> Asking them for an almost complete refund of the
> shipping charge is ludicrous. You want THEM to eat
> up the charge and take responsibility for YOUR
> mistake? If they do that for you, they'll have to
> do it for every careless buyer with a sorry
> excuse. I'm sorry but sometimes you reach a point
> where the customer is wrong.

OK, so than tell me, you have pointed out that they should be doing things differently, and are even looking into it. Which means there IS a problem, or you don't fix something that IS NOT a problem. What % of blame should THEY take for this? Zero? 5%, put a number on it?

Yes, a quality company that is FIXING A PROBLEM, would take responsibility for that problem with the customer.

So you tell me, what % of the responsibility should they take?

I'll tell you what, they cost themselves a hell of a lot more than $35 in profit in the future. I was really close to ordering a Taz, and probably would have ordered one as soon as it was back in stock had this not happened. Not to mention I have a budaschnozzle, several additional nozzles, always ordered my PET sheets from them, all of my filament, my glass, and several other things I have ordered from them.

Just because I share in the blame, which I have readily admitted but YOU chose to ignore, and did to them as well, does not mean it's the right thing for them to do, neither on a moral level, or a business level.

There are a TON of really bad business people in the 3D printing industry right now.

The customer may be wrong, but ultimately the customer decides how to spend their future money.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 05:49PM by AVRkire.

You may be right about the business side. Especially since you seem bent on destroying their reputation in order to extort $40 some odd dollars from them to recoup your imagined loss as a result of your own inattention and carelessness. I understand I am using harsh and emotionally charged language. I do it intentionally because you have decided to couch your argument in moral terms. Your great grandparents knew about morality. Their word was their bond. They paid their debts. They went without food at times in order to pay their obligations. They didn't try to place blame, excuse their actions, or publicly humiliate those that they owed money to.

The only moral issue I see here is the attempt to use a public forum to shame a company into giving you money you are not legally or morally owed. There may indeed be a business case for reimbursing you but in my opinion the moral case is on the other side.

You made the mistake, you should pay for it. It wasn't their mistake. The total cost was listed at checkout.

Why can't we all just man up and admit our mistakes and go on with our lives rather than going after every business that we have the slightest pretense of a grievance against. Especially since you admit they are a good company that does good business, and has treated you well in the past.

McDonalds didn't tell that lady that the coffee was hot either.

I've done business with them in the past and I will do so in the future.

A simple, "Hey guys, just a warning to double check your shipping from LulzBot in the future, some stuff ships out of Europe." would have been more than sufficient.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 08:34PM by bryanandaimee.

Bryanandaimiee, you REALLY need to get a grip on reality.....

Im trying to destroy their reputation????

Are you out of your mind?

I posted facts, I was fair and objective, if you are right, and they did nothing wrong and I am 100% at fault as you claim, they have nothing to lose because everyone who reads this will side with you.

If anyone reads this and does not buy from them, they have made the decision that the company at least shares in some blame.

You cannot have it both ways, sorry, does not work like that.

Im doing no such thing as trying to destroy ANYBODY! If I was trying to destroy someones reputation, I would not have been fair, nor objective, and could have done so in a far more destructive manner.

Extort money out of them??? This is your definition of extortion?

Get a friggin grip!

I suspect you are affiliated with the company.

I need to man up? How about the company man up???

If there is a flaw or a restriction in their software, that is not MY FAULT, they should man up, not me. I am the one out the money, not them.

The reality is that every decision a company makes has ramifications, and if they cant deal with the ramifications of their decisions, they should not be in business, period.

They decided they were not at fault, fine, they have my money and they have the right to do so.

I have the right to post my experiences and share my experiences with others.

I have not told one person not to buy from them. I have not slandered them, nor any of their products. You are way off base here. You want to say they are right, and I am wrong, fine, I can accept that, I posted here looking for opinions. But to say I am trying to destroy their reputation over $40 or trying to extort money from them, you are out of touch with reality.

If they don't like it, don't be in business. It's time some of these companies in this industry put on their big boy and big girl pants and act like real companies.

I certainly can have it both ways. Morality is not subjective nor is it a matter of popular opinion. It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with you, it could still be morally wrong. And it doesn't matter if everyone agrees with me, it could still be morally right. And morality is much more important than legality or business sense.

Just because you use reasonable tone and calm demeanor doesn't mean you are objective. You admit it was basically your own fault. Then you go on and on about how they owe you more than a discount on future purchases/shipping. In other words you admit fault but don't want to accept the consequences. Your initial proposed solution is that they should eat the entire difference between local and global shipping. In other words all your high sounding objectivity and responsibility means exactly nothing when it comes to cold hard cash. Your failure to check the total bill at checkout should therefore cost you exactly zero cents? Their failure to post warnings all over their website that you should check your shipping charges at checkout should therefore cost them the entire amount of money you were "screwed" out of?

So how much is your sense of personal responsibility and accountability for your own actions actually worth to you, $10, $20?

Extortion is an ugly word, but what else do you call it? Wasn't your point in posting here to recruit the reprap public to your side in hopes that the public outcry would cause Lulzbot to capitulate to your wishes? Do you really believe that your only purpose in posting here was to get some opinions? If that were true then why after you got quite a few of those opinions, all in reasonable tones (other than mine) , confirming that you were basically at fault and should be grateful they offered you anything, do you still go on and on about how you were:

1. "screwed" No, you were careless
2. "misled" Seriously? You made some assumptions that were false. You were not misled.
3. "shown a lack of respect" I don't even know what that means any more but it's usually associated with whining.

If you were actually open minded and fair as you claim, then why, after all the opinions have gone against you, have you simply doubled down on the blame game?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 11:14PM by bryanandaimee.

very well stated bryanandaimee

bryanandaimee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I certainly can have it both ways. Morality is not
> subjective nor is it a matter of popular opinion.
> It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with you, it
> could still be morally wrong. And it doesn't
> matter if everyone agrees with me, it could still
> be morally right. And morality is much more
> important than legality or business sense.
>
> Just because you use reasonable tone and calm
> demeanor doesn't mean you are objective. You admit
> it was basically your own fault. Then you go on
> and on about how they owe you more than a discount
> on future purchases/shipping. In other words you
> admit fault but don't want to accept the
> consequences. Your initial proposed solution is
> that they should eat the entire difference between
> local and global shipping. In other words all your
> high sounding objectivity and responsibility means
> exactly nothing when it comes to cold hard cash.
> Your failure to check the total bill at checkout
> should therefore cost you exactly zero cents?
> Their failure to post warnings all over their
> website that you should check your shipping
> charges at checkout should therefore cost them the
> entire amount of money you were "screwed" out of?
>
>
> So how much is your sense of personal
> responsibility and accountability for your own
> actions actually worth to you, $10, $20?
>
> Extortion is an ugly word, but what else do you
> call it? Wasn't your point in posting here to
> recruit the reprap public to your side in hopes
> that the public outcry would cause Lulzbot to
> capitulate to your wishes? Do you really believe
> that your only purpose in posting here was to get
> some opinions? If that were true then why after
> you got quite a few of those opinions, all in
> reasonable tones (other than mine) , confirming
> that you were basically at fault and should be
> grateful they offered you anything, do you still
> go on and on about how you were:
>
> 1. "screwed" No, you were careless
> 2. "misled" Seriously? You made some assumptions
> that were false. You were not misled.
> 3. "shown a lack of respect" I don't even know
> what that means any more but it's usually
> associated with whining.
>
> If you were actually open minded and fair as you
> claim, then why, after all the opinions have gone
> against you, have you simply doubled down on the
> blame game?

---

[mike-mack.blogspot.com]

AVRkire, read all these posts again.

if 1 person tells "you are wrong" than there is a chance that he could be right
if everybody tells "you are wrong" than you need to accept this.

life will be so much easier for yourself if you learn from mistakes.

my general rule when something went wrong is ask myself if i could have done anything else, even 1% to could have another outcome.
if i could than i consider myself responsible for the whole thing.
if there was nothing that i could have done different, than it's not my fault but theirs.
when the last thing will happen for the first time, i'll let you know.

as for my previous post, i've got really nothing against americans, or the usa. i was just making a point that i felt needed to be made here.

now all stay calm and carry on.

AVRkire,

Are you intentionally being less then honest? This screen shot was taken a few moments ago, while I was logged in (member for well over a year it said) and it CLEARLY shows that international shipping will be $42.00. At first, I saw your point; now I question your intent.

bryanandaimee, I could not disagree more with you, but since I have posted for my opinions, I understand that is what I got. If you believe I am immoral, that is your right, if you believe that lulzbot did nothing wrong here, and it is 100% my fault, than I have really done nothing to sway anyone. All the facts are laid out here, you have made your case, if everyone agrees with you, than no harm at all has bee done because nobody will have changed any opinion at all based on this thread.

If you want think you can judge my intent, knock yourself out. My intent was not to destroy anyones reputation, nor was it to extort. This was something that was bothering me, and it was with a company who sells 3d printing products so I wanted to get some opinions on a 3d printing board.

I have gotten may opinions, it does not really change my opinion, nor my stance.

I will say this, why fix or change something that is not broken with regards to their web site??

I will reiterate that I have been 100% honest and fair. I stated up front in other posts that I had always been happy with them, and never said a single bad thing about them as a company, their products or their prices.

As for your extortion claims, I question whether you even know what extortion is.

I am not going on and on at this point. I am responding to posts. If nobody else posted, I would not be posting, but since you seem to have a very hard time interpreting posts, I don't expect you to understand that.

foshon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AVRkire,
>
> Are you intentionally being less then honest? This
> screen shot was taken a few moments ago, while I
> was logged in (member for well over a year it
> said) and it CLEARLY shows that international
> shipping will be $42.00. At first, I saw your
> point; now I question your intent.


foshon, I am not being less than honest at all. There is clearly a flaw in their system, since another poster saw the exact same thing. I just went in to the site again a few minutes ago, and I still see the same thing. Here is the screen shot.



I have been 100% honest with everything I posted here.

What foshon means, you should've clicked the button to calculate shipping cost prior to accepting to pay.

I think it's in the middle here.