Hello all,
I am a new user and this is my first post. I saw the mcor iris and matrix the other day, thought it was a great idea. The use of paper as a raw material for 3d printing means that we now have a printing method that is cheap, renewable, biodegradable, and possibly simple to use too (all you need is paper, which is abundant). The products of the machine apparently resemble wood quite a bit, which is great I think. The machines for sale however are quite expensive, so I was wondering if there was a diy project started by someone that mimic's mcor's machines. So far I have not found any such project.

Mcor do own patents for their device, which may be why no one else is copying it, but surely there are ways of circumventing patents by changing the process, afterall ideas cannot be patented.

I remember there was a company that had a machine that cut sheets of plastic, like paper, then placed and glued them together. Something similar could be done with paper.

@tom10122
The device I was talking about does exactly that. It cuts each layer out from a4 paper, places it, hot presses it, applies glue, then repeat.

Is the idea of doing this with sheets of steel already patented?

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Detlef

Excalibur Hotend

reprapclean32.png

reprapzone.blogspot.de

Very interesting idea!

I second theodleif's comment: Has this been patented using sheets of metals? This seems like a much easier angle to approach 3d metal printing compared to the patented SLS process.

Eric

How would the steel layers be glued together, heating or just glue?

This method ist existing ...

And the material is also existing - called papermicarta - also made from linon - for knife handles e.g.

@repraplover: I guess glue would be sufficient in most cases.

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Detlef

Excalibur Hotend

reprapclean32.png

reprapzone.blogspot.de

I think you guys are talking about Laminated Object Manufacturing. It was one of the first rapid prototype methods developed.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2013 07:43AM by martinprice2004.

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Helium Frog Website

@Martinprice2004
Thanks for pointing that out, I found this thread as a result. LOM reprap

I remember about 15 years ago a company I worked for took delivery of a paper LOM (Laminated object manufacturing) component. Whilst it was tougher than the Nylon our company could produce using our 3d printers it had a few drawbacks. The edges would curl up after a while due to shrinkage of the paper/glue mix in thick areas and it had to be protected from moisture. You could not easily print parts that had other parts inside such as a ball within a ball as the paper could not easily be removed unless there was a huge hole to allow the removal of the unwanted paper material. It did look awesome though, the part we had looked like a solid oak object.

I think the real solution to 3d printing being cheap is that plastic should come down to a realistic price, $40 a kilo is a rip off price for raw plastic filament. Usually, a firm pays a few cents per plastic component if they mass produce in China using ABS so I dont see why we should pay 100 times that amount for the raw material. I have no idea what PLA costs to produce but i am sure that it is nowhere near the price we are paying.
Regards
Mike

mikefiatx19 Wrote:
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> so I dont see why we should pay
> 100 times that amount for the raw material.

Filament isn't exactly raw material. It has clear specifications (diameter) and is quite difficult to make.

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Detlef

Excalibur Hotend

reprapclean32.png

reprapzone.blogspot.de

theodleif Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Filament isn't exactly raw material. It has clear
> specifications (diameter) and is quite difficult
> to make.

OK, when I said 100 times that amount I was pushing it but filament is not difficult to make. In fact it's really really really really easy. Below is a link to a DIY filament extruder, You take pellets of ABS plastic and use a heated mechanism to push it through a hole the size you want it, it cools in the hole and out comes filament. If the cooling material is subject to shrinkage, you make the hole larger to compensate. It's so easy to make I included a second link below showing a hand crank filament extruder called the filabot that uses a naked flame to heat the output nozzle to make the filament. ABS pellets can be bought for less than $1 per kilo if you buy 1000+ tons at a time. I am sure the factories producing the filament are buying in huge bulk amounts and are therefore making a lot of profit selling it at near $40 a kilo. There is no reason that it should cost more than $5 a kilo for the end user to buy. I would not be surprised if there is some kind of price fixing taking place between the manufacturers of the filament.

[www.thingiverse.com]
[www.kickstarter.com]

In theory it sounds so easy. But, be true, how many kilos of filament do you have extruded already?

The tricky part is about the variance of the diameter.

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Detlef

Excalibur Hotend

reprapclean32.png

reprapzone.blogspot.de

mikefiatx19 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> theodleif Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Filament isn't exactly raw material. It has
> clear
> > specifications (diameter) and is quite
> difficult
> > to make.
>
> OK, when I said 100 times that amount I was
> pushing it but filament is not difficult to make.
> In fact it's really really really really easy.
> Below is a link to a DIY filament extruder, You
> take pellets of ABS plastic and use a heated
> mechanism to push it through a hole the size you
> want it, it cools in the hole and out comes
> filament. If the cooling material is subject to
> shrinkage, you make the hole larger to compensate.
> It's so easy to make I included a second link
> below showing a hand crank filament extruder
> called the filabot that uses a naked flame to heat
> the output nozzle to make the filament. ABS
> pellets can be bought for less than $1 per kilo if
> you buy 1000+ tons at a time. I am sure the
> factories producing the filament are buying in
> huge bulk amounts and are therefore making a lot
> of profit selling it at near $40 a kilo. There is
> no reason that it should cost more than $5 a kilo
> for the end user to buy. I would not be surprised
> if there is some kind of price fixing taking place
> between the manufacturers of the filament.
>

So go ahead and buy 1000 tonnes of pellets, and with your hand cranked extruder you can put all these rip-off companies out of business!

Seriously, comparing bulk raw material prices with finished product is nonsensical. You could say why doesn't everyone buy flour in bulk and make their own bread? It would be much cheaper. The point is you simply can not buy sufficient bulk of materials nor spend time making everything from scratch to make it worthwhile. People pay for convenience.

It's the processing in the middle that costs, and most people have no idea what is actually involved at industrial scales, so it's easy to think its simply paying one guy to crank an extruder and feed it pellets.

However, the major factor that makes things cheap is volume of sales, the filament market is relatively minute. Prices would come down if the market was bigger.

Quote
tom10122
I remember there was a company that had a machine that cut sheets of plastic

The Solido SD 300 does LOM with a plastic film.

... read here: [forums.reprap.org]

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So go ahead and buy 1000 tonnes of pellets, and
> with your hand cranked extruder you can put all
> these rip-off companies out of business!
>
> Seriously, comparing bulk raw material prices with
> finished product is nonsensical. You could say why
> doesn't everyone buy flour in bulk and make their
> own bread? It would be much cheaper. The point is
> you simply can not buy sufficient bulk of
> materials nor spend time making everything from
> scratch to make it worthwhile. People pay for
> convenience.
>
> It's the processing in the middle that costs, and
> most people have no idea what is actually involved
> at industrial scales, so it's easy to think its
> simply paying one guy to crank an extruder and
> feed it pellets.
>
> However, the major factor that makes things cheap
> is volume of sales, the filament market is
> relatively minute. Prices would come down if the
> market was bigger.

I have been involved and know what's involved in the processing plastics from pellets. The link to thingiverse I posted is already used by some makers to produce filament for $6 a kilo at home and some are making it for $15 a kilo. It does take time though because the machine is home made just like the 1st rep raps. With time and effort I am sure these machines will improve and become efficient and then the price will drop as people move to other local small scale manufacturers. A few users of the diy filament makers are even shredding plastic bottles to make their own free filament from PET. I believe that fact speaks for itself.
I could never compete with a factory producing tons of the stuff but if I had the equipment I would easily out compete the manufacturers who are selling for $40 a kilo.
I agree with the second point, the price will come down as other companies join in and the market grows.

Thinking out aloud here, but LOM tends to be very wasteful of material, so I was thinking of whether there would be a way to produce thin strips of plastic sheet (sort of like a pasta machine through rollers). The machine could then recycle its left over material back into useful sheet.

My first thoughts are a three stage machine, one that produces a sheet feeding across to a cutting head and then across to the deposition / glue station.

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Helium Frog Website

That sounds a little like ultrasonic consolidation, where they deposit strips of metal before milling them to shape (but in this case they are depositing before cutting).

If you can recycle thin strips, wouldn't it be just as easy to recycle a big sheet? Or are you thinking that the strips would be so narrow that the cutting would essentially be a "digital" process, where thin strips are cut to length and then placed where they should go? I guess in the limit of very thin strips, there wouldn't be any waste at all...

After the paper is cut up, couldn't the scrap be vacuumed up? it should be loose... that way you could do the ball-enclosed-in-box object, for instance...

Could aluminum foil be used? saran wrap? is the glue applied by an inkjet nozzle or just a spray over the whole print platform?

These are quite interesting concepts. How about a layer of perforated support gauze material, that you print on / through and after you have built it up, you dissolve it away.

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Helium Frog Website

Based on the comments here about the high cost of filament it would seem sensible for Reprappers to put some thought into a design for an extruder that could use cheaper material.

For example would it be impossible to make an extruder that took plastic pellets rather than preformed filament? Perhaps it could take plastic scrap that was cut into small pieces at home with some sort of shredder?

...R

Quote

For example would it be impossible to make an extruder that took plastic pellets rather than preformed filament?

It's possible:

[blog.reprap.org]
[reprap.org]
[www.youtube.com]

and summing this up in german:

[reprap.org]


Regarding the original topic, there was even a (korean?) company which used the original toner as glue. They printed sheets on a standard laser printer, baked all parts together somehow, then dissolved the not glued paper away to peel out the model. Sounds much like an easily DIY-able process.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

For example would it be impossible to make
> an extruder that took plastic pellets rather than
> preformed filament?

>
> It's possible:
>
> [blog.reprap.org]
> r.html
> [reprap.org]
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> and summing this up in german:
>
> [reprap.org]
> ruder.pdf
>
>
> Regarding the original topic, there was even a
> (korean?) company which used the original toner as
> glue. They printed sheets on a standard laser
> printer, baked all parts together somehow, then
> dissolved the not glued paper away to peel out the
> model. Sounds much like an easily DIY-able
> process.

What if one were to go a step further and use the toner itself as the build material? What I am thinking is that the first layer would print onto a substrate (perhaps even a paper) and then that would be printed onto repeatedly layer by layer.

With a colour laser printer one could even have four different materials, perhaps one of them soluble for support. I'm not sure what materials could be used as toner but I guess it just needs to be something that is easily charged with static electricity and that will melt and set under the heater of the printer. At my workplace there is a colour laser printer/copier that makes exactly the same smell as my 3D printer extruding ABS, making me think that the toner is at least very similar to ABS. (Either that or some plastic part of the printer is overheating)

I noticed that when printing colour photos at max quality one can very easily feel the varying height depending on the colour, darker being higher possibly because there would be three or four colours printed on top of each other.

I think a test could be done very easily without any modification. One could just manually feed back the paper time after time into the printer, printing layer upon layer. I on;t know how high each layer would be but perhaps thirty or so layers might be enough to see if the concept works.

I would try it myself but I don't have a laser printer.

If it works then there would probably not be much work needed to modify it. The main thing would be to provide a moving platform to replicate the movement of the paper through the printer. Apart from going forward during the print it would also need a Z-axis to move it a layer thickness away from the print drum for each layer.

I am thinking all of the electronics, the firmware and 95% of the mechanicals would be retained and a separate controller would take care of moving the platform based on the motion of the paper feed roller, and at the end of each 'page' it would move down a layer thickness, and reverse back to the starting position. One may need also to put in some relays (operated by the new controller) that would simulate the operation of some microswitches, for instance ones that detect out of paper or paper jams.

The feasibility of this all will depend a lot on the actual layout of the printer. In particular you would want a paper path that is linear rather than a convoluted path through many rollers. This probably means a large old printer rather than the newer ultra compact ones. There are even some colour printers that are designed to print on boards or stiff plastic sheets. That would be inherently ideal but such printers are not that common.