Filament prices rising?!?

Karmavore Wrote:
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> Are there extrusion-bot-enabled ebay
> sellers offering custom filament worth taking a
> chance on?
Why does anything always have to be a market opportunity to be taken serious?
For me, e.g., the aspect of recycling is important. I want to be able to reuse misprinted parts for new filament. It's not the point, if I (or any other extruder-owner) can keep up to market prices or even influence them.
My idea and statement is, that recycling plastic at home is a good goal, especially when done with regenerative energy.

> Regardless, the 1500% number is ignoring capital
> and labor costs, which certainly aren't nothing.
Yes, but for my needs I only have to calculate my own labour and the capital, invested in my extruder. But I don't have to (and don't ever want to) pay any investors or shareholders and don't want to get rich by 3D-printing. I just want to use it to realize my ideas and to do my part to prevent our environment, thus using as less resources as possible.

> I wonder if concentrating on the cost of
> the plastic and ignoring all else might be the
> backwards way to think about the business problem.
But if "business" is not the "problem" (and for me it definitely isn't - I can live without becoming rich or make profit), why think about "all else"?
If I can fix my car, why should I buy a new car?

>
> +1 the the observations that
> plastic-->filament-->3D printed parts is a process
> with one too many steps in it.
?????
I didn't get that one.

NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> greenman100 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ExtrusionBot hasn't shipped yet, Filastruder
> has
> > shipped over 500 units. Check out some of the
> > people using it:
> >
> > [filastruder.com]
> >
> > +/-0.05mm is no problem. Some users report
> > +/-0.03.
>
> 500 units is nothing, considering how many RepRaps
> and similar printers are out there. It'll take a
> lot more than that to impact the price of
> commercial filament.
You didn't get what RepRap is about, did you?

You can build your filastruder yourself and don't need a shipped kit. It's just for people not able or not willing to buy and make the parts themselves.
And a filament extruder is far less complex, than any 3D-printer.

> > Are there extrusion-bot-enabled ebay
> > sellers offering custom filament worth taking a
> > chance on?
> Why does anything always have to be a market
> opportunity to be taken serious?
Because I'd like for someone to take advantage of the opportunity so that I can save money. That's just where I'm coming from, though it's not the only concern. You note some others. FWIW, it sounds like the answer to my question is "Yes, but on another forum."

> My idea and statement is, that recycling plastic
> at home is a good goal, especially when done with
> regenerative energy.
Agreed. It sounds to me like this is an engineering challenge at least one rung up from extruding filament from granules.

> > +1 the the observations that
> > plastic-->filament-->3D printed parts is a
> process
> > with one too many steps in it.
> ?????
> I didn't get that one.
Wouldn't it be great if we could take the filament out of the process? You could put your old parts in a blender, drop them into a funnel on your 3D printer, and get new parts. There's no particular reason why FDM has to start from filament (even though that does make things a lot easier.) With filament out of the process, say goodbye to the plastic-to-filament markup.

RobertKuhlmann Wrote:
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> You didn't get what RepRap is about, did you?
>
> You can build your filastruder yourself and don't
> need a shipped kit. It's just for people not able
> or not willing to buy and make the parts
> themselves.
> And a filament extruder is far less complex, than
> any 3D-printer.

I do get the point of RepRap, but my point was in regards to the topic of this thread, which is about filament pricing.

---

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RobertKuhlmann Wrote:

> The filament manufacturers are selling 2$/lb
> plastic with a 1500% profit margin! For just
> melting it, and form it to filament (a quite
> simple process)?
>
> I break out in spots, only thinking about that.
>
> I hope that more and more people will use their
> homemade filament to stop these insane prices.

I'm an importer/reseller of filament, so you could take what I say with a grain of salt, but the reality is that when you buy that $30-$50/kg spool of plastic, you aren't just paying for the raw material - you are paying for the manufacturing and distribution pipeline that gets it to your hands.

I have a more detailed write up of my thinking on my blog post from April, but the main point is this:

Surely, you can carbonate your own water, add sugar and flavoring to make soda; or mix flour, water, salt and yeast to make your own bread for 1/20th the retail price. But most of us won't.

Now, you might argue that making filament is simpler, perhaps like cooking a pot of rice in a rice cooker (about as simple as making food can get) -- yet there's a market for microwaveable rice and Uncle Ben's that also sell rice at similar markup.

I respectfully submit that while making your own filament is a no-brainer for you, I don't think it's such a simple answer for many folks, especially the less technically inclined people that are picking up the technology now. And, if it does get to a point where it's simple for anyone to just go straight to pellets, the market will eventually go that direction, and the prices for prepared filament will fall accordingly.

Then again, people have been eating spaghetti for hundreds of years, and yet the retail price for a box of spaghetti is far more than that of the raw ingredients. So perhaps not.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2013 04:17AM by toybuilder.

I would try a Filastruder, in principle. It costs $239 plus $45 shipping, then I will need to pay import duty, VAT (sales tax) plus handling fee when I receive it.

But then I seem to have substituted one problem for another, where can I buy pellets/powder in reasonable prices? Shipping cost is by weight, so a kg of filament costs same as kg of pellets to ship, so I really need local supplier. Filabot sell natural ABS pellets for about $10/kg, plus $15 shipping etc.

I don't use that much filament per year, though perhaps if it was cheaper I would. But I am not convinced of the practicality yet. I would probably still need to buy pellets in bulk to get lower price, but really the benefit would be to have a greater variety of colours/materials.

Interestingly, you might think that the people who make filament extruders would be able to sell filament dead cheap, since they can make as many extruders as they want. But Filabot sell 3mmm ABS filament for about $60/kg, which is about the same as everywhere else I think.

the biggest problem is getting the granules, currently pretty much every pla granule supplier won't touch anything under 25kg, and if they do the prices plus shipping don't usually end up being much better than just buying a spool of filament,

the reality of it is that unless you can drive to somwhere that sells pla/abs granule the shipping costs make it unfeasable/inpractical compared to the higher cost of filament,

either way we can expect to see paste extruders extruding expoxy/ceramic powder blends or organic glues and powder mixes as the system will allow a lot of experimentation and the use of locally available raw materials

---

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What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at just 2€/kg?

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
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> What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at just
> 2€/kg?


it might be that price in europe, in australia we're talking $4 to $8/kg then $9/kg shipping on top of that,



*all $ prices in USD

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

toybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm an importer/reseller of filament, so you could
> take what I say with a grain of salt, but the
> reality is that when you buy that $30-$50/kg spool
> of plastic, you aren't just paying for the raw
> material - you are paying for the manufacturing
> and distribution pipeline that gets it to your
> hands.
You forgot the profit of the manufacturer, the profit of the transport company, the profit of oil company that sells the oil the transport company runs it's vehicles with, the profit of the marketing company that adds a label to your plastic and ... and ... and, last but not least, your own profit.

And why should I buy plastic from China, if our own chemical industry (here in germany) produces the same product for world market prices?
The "distribution pipeline" you describe THE joke of globalization. The gross price of plastic pellets is well below 1$/kg. Let the manufacturing costs be really high with $1/kg. The rest is for nothing but satisfying capital investors.

> Surely, you can carbonate your own water, add
> sugar and flavoring to make soda; or mix flour,
> water, salt and yeast to make your own bread for
> 1/20th the retail price. But most of us won't.
Just think of me being one who does.
Not for being cheap, but to live along principals.

> Now, you might argue that making filament is
> simpler, perhaps like cooking a pot of rice in a
> rice cooker (about as simple as making food can
> get) -- yet there's a market for microwaveable
> rice and Uncle Ben's that also sell rice at
> similar markup.
And that is as crazy as filament for $60/kg. People just not seem to know any more, how easy it is to cook rice. "Uncle Ben" was successful in telling them, they can't and he has the clue to that problem (he self invented a second before).
But "he" didn't do that to help people get better cooked rice, but to buy his very expensive rice. It's insane.

> I respectfully submit that while making your own
> filament is a no-brainer for you, I don't think
> it's such a simple answer for many folks,
> especially the less technically inclined people
> that are picking up the technology now.
Sorry, but no mercy with them. I'm not convinced anybody will print his or her own parts in the future. But that doesn't has hasn't to be to goal. If there are enough people in your neighborhood or under your friends you will more and more have access to 3D-printed products, no industrial complex earns merely a cent - even patents don't work on this level any longer.

> And, if
> it does get to a point where it's simple for
> anyone to just go straight to pellets, the market
> will eventually go that direction, and the prices
> for prepared filament will fall accordingly.
They will fall, because the "makers" will make their own filament. The "users" are no market for filament (see above) - my opinion.

> Then again, people have been eating spaghetti for
> hundreds of years, and yet the retail price for a
> box of spaghetti is far more than that of the raw
> ingredients. So perhaps not.
Not in Germany. The last years food was very cheap here (500g Spaghetti are at app. 0.49 €). Only in the last months, food prices began to rise quickly as a result of the financial crisis (and the excessive money printing that followed).

And some words on Filabot:

They do sell this

for $649? You wonder why there filament is as expensive as anywhere else? They just want to make as much money as possible. That's the point.
Their kickstarter will not go too far with this price.

Traumflug Wrote:
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> What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at just
> 2€/kg?

Is that just a rhetorical question? If not, where in the EU can I buy it for that price?

Unless my memory is faulty, the average price for 1kg of PLA or ABS has come down in price - from local suppliers in the U.K. at least. Some months ago I was happy if I found a kilo at £25.00 but now I am finding a kilo at less than £15 on ebay.
I will admit that I know nothing about the quality of this filament; also, the highest price on ebay is still about £60 and suppliers I have purchased from before have not changed their prices, but nothing seems to have gone up - so you are not being ripped off any more than you were in the past.

Mike

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Traumflug Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at
> just
> > 2€/kg?
>
> Is that just a rhetorical question? If not, where
> in the EU can I buy it for that price?

Look at this: [plasticker.de]

I can't see any price above 1.45€ for ABS nature. Any more questions?

Do you mind posting the link of the £15/kg abs? I can't find anything close to that on eBay, it is more like 25€ + 15€ shipping, eBay is more expensive than website dedicated to 3D printing.

RobertKuhlmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bobc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Traumflug Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at
> > just
> > > 2€/kg?
> >
> > Is that just a rhetorical question? If not,
> where
> > in the EU can I buy it for that price?
>
> Look at this:
> [plasticker.de]
>
> I can't see any price above 1.45€ for ABS
> nature. Any more questions?

Interesting, but that appears to be an exchange site for trade customers. There is no indication that they sell to the public. AFAICT, you can't buy from that site, you have to contact the trader.

There is no question that trade customers can buy pellets in bulk for a cheap price, we know that. The point being is where can end users get this stuff, as easily as buying filament is currently, without having to contact trade suppliers.

I found several listing on ebay for plastic pellets, but there is no indication what type of plastic they are. They seem to be intended for various craft purposes but not 3d printing.

So repeat question, where can I - a retail customer - buy it for that price?

Quote

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at just
> 2€/kg?

Is that just a rhetorical question? If not, where in the EU can I buy it for that price?

Not a rethorical question. While Looplife Polymers currently ships PLA samples entirely free, the price given on their paperwork is € 1.50. I have a few bags here. Also there are many, many distributors, because every shop with an injection molding machine uses pellets. It's more a problem of finding these distributors than having too few of them.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

Traumflug Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What's the problem of buying 25kg if it's at
> just
> > 2€/kg?
>
> Is that just a rhetorical question? If not, where
> in the EU can I buy it for that price?

>
> Not a rethorical question. While Looplife Polymers
> currently ships PLA samples entirely free, the
> price given on their paperwork is € 1.50. I have
> a few bags here. Also there are many, many
> distributors, because every shop with an injection
> molding machine uses pellets. It's more a problem
> of finding these distributors than having too few
> of them.

Machine shops who use pellets are not the same as retail sellers, completely different in fact. As is wangling free samples.

Indeed, finding these *retail* shops is the problem I am having, hence my question, which is still unanswered!

bobc, I'm on the prowl, too.

The best (also: only) place I've found is the place linked to by the filastruder website, which offers ABS at $8/lb. [store.osprintingllc.com]

After non-trivial shipping costs (to a US address,) even when placing an order for 20 lbs of the stuff, I still can't get the per kg price under $20. In other words, the break even point on a filastruder wouldn't come for me until about 60 lbs of uncolored ABS prints are done!

Disappointing. Where's the retail seller that makes the filastruder a clear win for 3D printers, and not just a cool project?

bobc Wrote:
>
> So repeat question, where can I - a retail
> customer - buy it for that price?
Here are some addresses of companies that offer granulates or recycled granulates in germany: [www.wlw.de]

Some of them sell to consumers, some of them don't. And you surely know someone with a small business, who can order for you, if you don't have a Tax-ID.
I've got a Tax-ID and That's all it takes to buy from wholesale.

@Karmavore

With relatively few home extruders in the wild, locating and collaborating with other geographically convenient RepRappers to purchase bulk feedstock together might be the near term way to bring the price down. Probably difficult given the far flung nature of RepRap in general and home extrusion in particular.

Karmavore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bobc, I'm on the prowl, too.
>
> The best (also: only) place I've found is the
> place linked to by the filastruder website, which
> offers ABS at $8/lb.
> [store.osprintingllc.com]
>
> After non-trivial shipping costs (to a US
> address,) even when placing an order for 20 lbs of
> the stuff, I still can't get the per kg price
> under $20. In other words, the break even point on
> a filastruder wouldn't come for me until about 60
> lbs of uncolored ABS prints are done!
>
> Disappointing. Where's the retail seller that
> makes the filastruder a clear win for 3D printers,
> and not just a cool project?


That price is $8 for TWO pounds. I think you'll get an even better deal if you email them about several pounds. Should get under $10/kg shipped in the US no problem.

tleneel asked for a link to the £15 per kg on ebay:-

[www.ebay.co.uk]

Mike

Cheers mate!

Have any of your tried alibaba for ABS spools? The prices seem more competitive.

They don't ship to France damn.

How long is a spool of 1.75mm ABS Filament 1kg?

Is there a way to calculate the (±) length of a spool based on filament type, diameter and weight?

weight can be converted to volume using density
volume can be converted to length by dividing by crossectional area

simple math.

tleneel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey!
> I've been buying 1.75mm ABS for a a year now. I
> remember buying it shipped from China to France
> for less than 20€, now it seems that it is
> 25-30€/kg :O
> I tend to buy 4kg per shipment. I've tried to
> increase the orders to 10-15kg, but the prices are
> the same, shipping is expensive.
>
> Have you guys noticed that too? or is it just me.
> I figured the prices would actually go down due to
> demand.
>
> Cheers

I bought 2 kilo's abs for $60 AUD

Have you seen a printer called the cube, has a cartridge instead of a roll, i looked at it and then saw people talking about how good the printer was on a youtube, and I said to them that over 50 buck for a cartridge was a ripoff, and that no where on the site did it say how much was in the cartridge, even at 50 bucks for a kilo if thats whats in that cartridge, I asked if it could use a roll instead of the cartridge, still waiting for the people to tell me, think they don't like me for telling them they have been robbed. and the printer is over $1300 US.

frank Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you seen a printer called the cube, has a
> cartridge instead of a roll, i looked at it and
> then saw people talking about how good the printer
> was on a youtube, and I said to them that over 50
> buck for a cartridge was a ripoff, and that no
> where on the site did it say how much was in the
> cartridge, even at 50 bucks for a kilo if thats
> whats in that cartridge, I asked if it could use a
> roll instead of the cartridge, still waiting for
> the people to tell me, think they don't like me
> for telling them they have been robbed. and the
> printer is over $1300 US.


I've tried the cube, I am not a big fan.
The heated bed doesn't warm enough, it is small (so you make small parts).
The cartridges are for 500g. I'm sure you can use regular rolls tho. Cartridges are patented by 3D systems, so they are trying to put them in all their products.
I've tried quite a few printers, and $1300 US is cheap for a printer. If you want something that works every time you press print you need to spend at least $3,000 US.

tleneel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've tried quite a few printers, and $1300 US is
> cheap for a printer. If you want something that
> works every time you press print you need to spend
> at least $3,000 US.

My RRP Mendel kit cost $700 and after climbing the learning curve I now am confident it will work every time I start a print, and has done so for the last couple of months.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 08:33AM by ajayre.

@RobertKuhlmann

I agree that we can source ABS in cheap prices and reasonable quantities, but has anyone found such a supplier yet? The list you posted is big enough and intimidating enough as many of the sites are not really consumer oriented.

Its also quite common that the sellers of these companies dont really want to handle retail customers.

So it would be helpful if someone has to recommend a seller willing to sell in retail quantities .


PS Im sourcing parts for a lymann filament extruder and the price will never go over 100euro mark.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2013 03:50PM by waste.