Why are the printed parts kits not selling these days?

Even at $39.99 they aren't selling and I wonder if people have just given up on 3d printers, and specifically RepRap?

[tinyurl.com] Like those, and others, are not selling when a year, or two, ago they wouldn't have lasted 5 mins for sale.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Maybe because more and more people are printing their own parts... I don't know of many people who buy just printed parts and build around that. I think most people buy full kits. Besides, not many people want to build 3d printers nowadays.

Those are i2 kits. i3 kits have become the norm, at least over here.

ohioplastics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> Besides, not many
> people want to build 3d printers nowadays.

I think that sums it up and what is holding back 3d printers.

vegasloki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those are i2 kits. i3 kits have become the norm,
> at least over here.

As far as i3 vs i2 i2 is a lot less expensive to build.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

It's a fallacy to think that something that comes out of a 3d printer is the best thing for 3d printing. I've made tons of stuff on my laser cutter that was way better (and faster) than anything that has ever come out of my reprap. The reprap isn't (yet) the one stop shop of fabrication. You have to broaden your horizons.

ohioplastics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a fallacy to think that something that comes
> out of a 3d printer is the best thing for 3d
> printing. I've made tons of stuff on my laser
> cutter that was way better (and faster) than
> anything that has ever come out of my reprap. The
> reprap isn't (yet) the one stop shop of
> fabrication. You have to broaden your horizons.


Additive vs subtractive and the subtractive will always be faster imo. I personally prefer the water jet cutting system to the laser cutter as it cuts way cleaner and last a lot longer but does require a pick up bath for the water.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

i'm still selling I2 parts, and printing I3 parts on demand

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

Quote

As far as i3 vs i2 i2 is a lot less expensive to build.

Ooops, why this? Because of this big frame, which is currently sold at prices as if they were gold plated? Everything else (electronics, steppers, extruder, ...) is pretty much the same, isn't it?

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

As far as i3 vs i2 i2 is a lot less
> expensive to build.

>
> Ooops, why this? Because of this big frame, which
> is currently sold at prices as if they were gold
> plated? Everything else (electronics, steppers,
> extruder, ...) is pretty much the same, isn't it?

if anything the i3 should be slightly cheaper because the parts set uses much less plastic than the i2 , depending on the country you are in the frame cost i've been told can vary between "nuts" (stupdily expensive) and very cheap

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2013 05:12AM by thejollygrimreaper.

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

As far as i3 vs i2 i2 is a lot less
> expensive to build.

>
> Ooops, why this? Because of this big frame, which
> is currently sold at prices as if they were gold
> plated? Everything else (electronics, steppers,
> extruder, ...) is pretty much the same, isn't it?


Yep.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

From a sampling of the six or so OEM customers I have plus retail customers it's no contest, the i2, at least in these parts has been surpassed by the i3.

As for the single plate costs it's simple. In small batch they are expensive to make. You can't cut 1/4" AL with a smaller laser cutter and a new waterjet machine starts in the six figure range. If you can find a job shop that will only cut one, it's going to be over US$100 (I've been quoted as high as US$160 when I was prototyping) for a single plate and bed. Industrial laser in many cases is more expensive than waterjet. Once you start buying 100 pcs or so the price drops to something more managable but it's still expensive. At 1000 pcs it becomes almost as inexpensive as an i2 frame though unfinished (BTW, that requires more than US$10,000 upfront). And that's not tapped or finished. If a shop taps the holes it's between US$8 and US$12. Powercoating in bulk is between US$10 and US$20 a set depending on quantity and vendor. If you want just a single powdercoated it is likely the shop minimum which is around US$100 in many cases. At that point for a single frame you've got around US$200 or better plus lead times of a few weeks unless you are lucky enough to know someone that can do it in a day or so. No one is gettng rich selling frames.

In terms of cost difference between an i2 and single plate i3 there is about US$60-70 premium with that being the finished plate and with a box i3 it's about US$10 less than an i2 or about the same depending on parts sourcing. If you go with something like an sgraber wooden plate the difference is only about US$15 or so more than an i2.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Additive vs subtractive and the subtractive will
> always be faster imo. I personally prefer the
> water jet cutting system to the laser cutter as it
> cuts way cleaner and last a lot longer but does
> require a pick up bath for the water.

an industrial grade laser is going to have the capability to be more precise than abrasive waterjet and offer a cleaner cut with less post processing. For a Reprap that kind of precision isn't required. it comes at a cost though which is reflected in the machine price and the price of the work product.

Quote

As for the single plate costs it's simple. In small batch they are expensive to make. [...]

Somehow I get the impression people simply think way too much in terms of Laser, Waterjet and whatever. 500 years ago, people could make such plates, too. Typically with a drill and a saw. 100 years ago there were milling machines. All this stuff still exists today. And I see not much point in favouring 10 mm Aluminium over 20 mm wood.

Perhaps one of these marketing ("don't make yourself, buy in my shop") things. People apparently like it!

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

vegasloki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Additive vs subtractive and the subtractive
> will
> > always be faster imo. I personally prefer the
> > water jet cutting system to the laser cutter as
> it
> > cuts way cleaner and last a lot longer but does
> > require a pick up bath for the water.
>
> an industrial grade laser is going to have the
> capability to be more precise than abrasive
> waterjet and offer a cleaner cut with less post
> processing. For a Reprap that kind of precision
> isn't required. it comes at a cost though which
> is reflected in the machine price and the price of
> the work product.

Cleaner? Nope. Look at the poor wood used to make the I3 that has been cut from a laser as it is charred whereas the water jet is clean as a baby's bottom.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

As for the single plate costs it's simple.
> In small batch they are expensive to make.
> [...]

>
> Somehow I get the impression people simply think
> way too much in terms of Laser, Waterjet and
> whatever. 500 years ago, people could make such
> plates, too. Typically with a drill and a saw. 100
> years ago there were milling machines. All this
> stuff still exists today. And I see not much point
> in favouring 10 mm Aluminium over 20 mm wood.
>
> Perhaps one of these marketing ("don't make
> yourself, buy in my shop") things. People
> apparently like it!

BINGO!!! We have allowed the tech to overwhelm us. I had an Engineer tell me I was a fool for using a T square and/or 2 L squares for finding the center of a circle. He needed to make it so complex and use laser tools to do the same thing.

It is the same for regular people who can no longer count without a machine (calculator of some sort) because they have allowed, and encouraged, calculators in school for so long that our brains have become mushy and dependent on the machines to do our work for us.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Cleaner? Nope. Look at the poor wood used to
> make the I3 that has been cut from a laser as it
> is charred whereas the water jet is clean as a
> baby's bottom.

I'm talking about high end commercial lasers which have the capability to cut cleaner than a waterjet. The cut finish is dependent on the type of material. It seems as though you are talking about a lower end machine like an FS. The machine needs to be around 1500 watts to cut thicker metal. Most low end lasers top out at 100 watts. I'm talking about machines that can cost in excess of a million dollars which is one of the reasons it's so expensive to operate them.

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Somehow I get the impression people simply think
> way too much in terms of Laser, Waterjet and
> whatever. 500 years ago, people could make such
> plates, too. Typically with a drill and a saw. 100
> years ago there were milling machines. All this
> stuff still exists today. And I see not much point
> in favouring 10 mm Aluminium over 20 mm wood.
>
> Perhaps one of these marketing ("don't make
> yourself, buy in my shop") things. People
> apparently like it!

Not everyone has the time, skills or even desire to make everything themselves. Some what to buy a printer to print, not for the project. A 1000 pcs isn't that large in the manufacturing sector which is about what is needed to make the price more resonable. At that qty milling and drilling is more time consuming and the labor will start to become the primary cost. You won't save any money on small batch mill work either. And for this application it doesn't scale well and it's not near as fast.

vegasloki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Traumflug Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Somehow I get the impression people simply
> think
> > way too much in terms of Laser, Waterjet and
> > whatever. 500 years ago, people could make such
> > plates, too. Typically with a drill and a saw.
> 100
> > years ago there were milling machines. All this
> > stuff still exists today. And I see not much
> point
> > in favouring 10 mm Aluminium over 20 mm wood.
> >
> > Perhaps one of these marketing ("don't make
> > yourself, buy in my shop") things. People
> > apparently like it!
>
> Not everyone has the time, skills or even desire
> to make everything themselves. Some what to buy a
> printer to print, not for the project. A 1000 pcs
> isn't that large in the manufacturing sector which
> is about what is needed to make the price more
> resonable. At that qty milling and drilling is
> more time consuming and the labor will start to
> become the primary cost. You won't save any
> money on small batch mill work either. And for
> this application it doesn't scale well and it's
> not near as fast.


Yet we know that the frames alone could be turned out at over 100 a minute with a proper cutter of whatever sort. I see them turn out thousands per hour of car frame parts so this would be nothing for them. Cut the middle out and the sides with a few holes. It would take a large order but this is why the I2 beats it in price. 4 motors vs 5 is another reason.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2013 04:12PM by Dark Alchemist.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

when i started it was cheaper to source everything yourself.
now i think it's cheaper and better to buy a kit, and know everything will work together.

possenier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> when i started it was cheaper to source everything
> yourself.
> now i think it's cheaper and better to buy a kit,
> and know everything will work together.
I completely disagree with that because you WILL pay more if you do that and all it would take is some homework. For me I would rather save the 50 to 100 dollars than just give it away but others would rather give away and semi-feel safe. Neophyte vs Someone that knows electronics and where to stay away from.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> vegasloki Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Traumflug Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > Somehow I get the impression people simply
> > think
> > > way too much in terms of Laser, Waterjet and
> > > whatever. 500 years ago, people could make
> such
> > > plates, too. Typically with a drill and a
> saw.
> > 100
> > > years ago there were milling machines. All
> this
> > > stuff still exists today. And I see not much
> > point
> > > in favouring 10 mm Aluminium over 20 mm wood.
> > >
> > > Perhaps one of these marketing ("don't make
> > > yourself, buy in my shop") things. People
> > > apparently like it!
> >
> > Not everyone has the time, skills or even
> desire
> > to make everything themselves. Some what to buy
> a
> > printer to print, not for the project. A 1000
> pcs
> > isn't that large in the manufacturing sector
> which
> > is about what is needed to make the price more
> > resonable. At that qty milling and drilling is
> > more time consuming and the labor will start to
> > become the primary cost. You won't save any
> > money on small batch mill work either. And for
> > this application it doesn't scale well and it's
> > not near as fast.
>
>
> Yet we know that the frames alone could be turned
> out at over 100 a minute with a proper cutter of
> whatever sort. I see them turn out thousands per
> hour of car frame parts so this would be nothing
> for them. Cut the middle out and the sides with a
> few holes. It would take a large order but this
> is why the I2 beats it in price. 4 motors vs 5 is
> another reason.


where do you get 4 motors vs 5 both the i3 and the i2 use 5 stepper motors

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

Every I2 I have seen is 1 for Y, 1 for Z, 1 for the stepper and 1 with a belt for the X (left to right right to left) motion.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2013 05:06PM by Dark Alchemist.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

It's the Sells Mendel which comes with 4 motors. At the cost of an additional toothbelt.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

As for the single plate costs it's simple.
> In small batch they are expensive to make.
> [...]

>
> Somehow I get the impression people simply think
> way too much in terms of Laser, Waterjet and
> whatever. 500 years ago, people could make such
> plates, too. Typically with a drill and a saw. 100
> years ago there were milling machines. All this
> stuff still exists today. And I see not much point
> in favouring 10 mm Aluminium over 20 mm wood.
>
> Perhaps one of these marketing ("don't make
> yourself, buy in my shop") things. People
> apparently like it!

it's because it's the new shiney "in" thing, to me threaded rod and printed parts still holds the proverbial keys to a huge potential wonderland of various machines we've built printers this way, why not other machines as well to me it seems more practical because you can recycle the rods and potenially printed parts as well into a different machine,

the tslot thing is an interesting one, a lot of the printers that are designed based on this stuff are based on the assumption that it is cheap and available everywhere, in reality just like getting aluminium plates cut out for i3's in a laser cutting/waterjet cutting/etc in some countries the cost can be peanuts or prohibitive,

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's the Sells Mendel which comes with 4 motors.
> At the cost of an additional toothbelt.


Tell that to the BOM I was given for a fully working I2 which had GT2 pulleys and belts and used 4 motors.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

thejollygrimreaper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it's because it's the new shiney "in" thing, to
> me threaded rod and printed parts still holds the
> proverbial keys to a huge potential wonderland of
> various machines we've built printers this way,
> why not other machines as well to me it seems more
> practical because you can recycle the rods and
> potenially printed parts as well into a different
> machine,
>
> the tslot thing is an interesting one, a lot of
> the printers that are designed based on this stuff
> are based on the assumption that it is cheap and
> available everywhere, in reality just like getting
> aluminium plates cut out for i3's in a laser
> cutting/waterjet cutting/etc in some countries the
> cost can be peanuts or prohibitive,

Off the subject but this forum still sucks and no suggestions that would improve upon it has been implemented. Who in the hell is the sys admin for this of a forum that doesn't even have a proper quote system fully implemented (it does have the quote system like a real forum but the admin died, I think, and never implemented it fully)?

Back on the subject: I agree with you and I know with a band saw the I3 frame can easily be made but I know I don't have the room for one as I think most wouldn't so we pay for someone who has the room, and skill, to do it for us. I am unsure how much greed is involved in the final price but if it is like the 3d printed parts and what they sell/sold for then it is a hefty greedy price for sure.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2013 06:51PM by Dark Alchemist.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Tell that to the BOM I was given for a fully
> working I2 which had GT2 pulleys and belts and
> used 4 motors.

You were misinformed. That is, as was referenced earlier, a Sells Mendel or variant that uses a single Z motor. A Prusa i2, or commonly known as an i2 is indeed a 5 motor design [reprap.org]) though some people have made a single Z motor variant.

vegasloki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Tell that to the BOM I was given for a fully
> > working I2 which had GT2 pulleys and belts and
> > used 4 motors.
>
> You were misinformed. That is, as was referenced
> earlier, a Sells Mendel or variant that uses a
> single Z motor. A Prusa i2, or commonly known as
> an i2 is indeed a 5 motor design
> [reprap.org])
> though some people have made a single Z motor
> variant.

Interesting since his I2 used 4 motors. *shrug*

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Traumflug is on the right path about the marketing thing.
But in my opinion, I think the market for people that actually want to build something like a 3d printer is drying up, and all that is left is the kids with rich parents who just want to buy the machine, toy around with it for a while, get bored, then toss it... Which is all you have once the initial up and up of the popularity of something starts to drop off.
It's not like the market was that big anyways(In the US), not a whole lot of people have the technical skills and the know how to build one of these things(thanks to our education system and collapsing industrial capacity that create trade job skills)...

Meh, all you have to do is market this to be "sexy" in some way to the kids, or make it "taboo"...
People like doing something that is taboo or not "authorized", get what I mean?
The printed gun fiasco, i'm willing to wager, made a great boost here.

Oh, and I would like to add one more thing:
The i3 is supposed to be the cream of the mendel crop right?
Then how come the wiki for it is almost near unusable?
It needs to be cleaned up and tailored for a noobie, they see this thing right off the bat, start trying to build it, get discouraged because the info just isn't there, then move on to something else.

The comments on youtube proves this.
The people that have made "How to" vids on this thing get comments such as "the wiki sucks, help me", or "you are a god", etc etc...

Fix the wiki, that's what they are seeing first.