Posting rules and new products

I wonder how best to handle new product announcements. I know this is tricky. Occasionally, there are truly new or unique products that get announced in the General section that are, in fact, of general interest. These are often posted by individuals unrelated to the product, but if you happen to be the one offering the new product, it'd be nice to avoid the subterfuge of getting someone else to post their new "discovery". Then there are all of the new products that are vanishingly incremental that are not of general interest.

As for the For Sale section, personally, I tend to just do a quick check of the General section to see what's going on in the RepRap world, and in fact, I had never noticed before that there was a For Sale section. I suspect a pretty high percentage of forum members mostly just look at the General section.

A New Products section (distinct from For Sale) would be nice but it'd be even nicer to have those things that are completely unique moved to the General section. I don't know how this could best be done, though.

There will probably be some difference of opinion on this (ha ha ) but I think if you run a shop and want to announce a new product it should be OK to make one short post in the General section that says something like: "Hi, I run this shop, and we just started selling a new extruder widget blah blah".

It is better to be up front about your financial interests, instead of pretending to be some "regular Joe" and posting "Hey, I just found out about this great new product..."

If you want to announce a Kickstarter project (in my opinion) it should be fine to make one post that says "Hey everyone I just put up my cool Kickstarter project please take a look".

Being honest and straightforward about your affiliations and intentions is the main thing, I think.

Also, this thread should perhaps be moved to the Administration, Announcements and Policy thread.

Unfortunately whatever wording is chosen, there will be grey area between spam and legitimate discussion.

I would vote for an "Announcements and New Products" sub-forum, where people can post and discuss announcements whether they have a financial interest or not, without cluttering up the General forum.

bobc is right on the money.

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- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

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I wonder how best to handle new product announcements.

Write about the printer and its technical highlights, less about the fact somebody (you?) is selling it.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Advertising i normally classify as a thread that has been started with the intention of driving traffic to an outside site and purposely leaving out information to maximize the effect.

Product announcements really should have as much detail in them as possible, people are only going to ask for those details anyway,

the self promotion part really relates to people who are selling something in a webstore and recommending it to people who ask without actually declaring that they are the ones who gain/profit from that recommendation. this is my primary reason for a signature it simply removes that question and declares my source of bias in anything i say ,

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-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

This thread has direct affect on my "business"(business would seem to indicate that you make a profit, which is not the case with me), I have around $5,000.oo invested in research for a robust, and reliable liquid cooled hot end. I have endured dealing with some of the least reliable "engineers" I have ever come across, it is not like I have never dealt with engineers before, being a tool & die maker for 27 years before being disabled. I have been fed misleading information, been out and out lied to, just so an engineer can try to manipulate the direction the research goes. All of this led too extra expenditures in materials, and many months of wasted time, the new "Mercury" hot end will still not be able to be released for another 3 months, when it should have been released 3 months prior to today. Now I am faced with trying to figure out a way to get the word out, quickly, so that I might be able to recover the money invested(for the community's benefit), with out looking like another, popular hot end, that used forums to pretty much launch their hot end into the spot light. I definitely do not even want to have the slightest appearance of trying to "SELL" the hot end. I think having one of the independent testers post something is worse than stating up front my relationship with the product, and posting. I'm thinking a simple announcement would be the most honest. Ideas ? HONEST ideas ?

PS Sorry this sounds like whining, I'm actually just trying to be up front and honest.

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I have been fed misleading information, been out and out lied to, just so an engineer can try to manipulate the direction the research goes.

Please keep in mind the majority of people here aren't university educated mechanical engineers. Most are hobbyists, some are mechanics. All of them want to say something, though, so you get very mixed responses.

That said, the opposite is also true: if somebody asks a question, it's difficult to find the right tone for the answer, because one never knows wether the opposite person is a teenager ("where must I click?"), an artist barely capable of using a screwdriver or an engineer with 20 years into Rapid Prototyping (the former name for 3D printing).

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Tramflug, I appreciate what you are saying, in this case the person I am referring to is VERY prolific at posting comments in RepRap forums, always with an opinion of expertise. He presented himself to me as an expert engineer, then proceeded to intentionally mislead me, and people involved with research. He had me buy materials that are completely useless, and received multiple items from us to help with research, none of which has been returned. I will not name this person, I think that would not help matters at all, but I would caution everybody on their choice of testers. I now will have everybody put up a deposit if they want to be included in testing. His salesmanship was so good that I did not require him to put up a deposit, while everybody else did. If all I wanted to do was sell hot ends, I would continue my relationship with him, he sells things very well. He has chosen the wrong profession, he should sell, not engineer.

Once again, I do not want to sound like I am whining, these are the challenges everybody faces when they try to develop something, even if it is to benefit the entire community. Just the way it goes, I will lick my wounds, be wiser in the future, and get on with this project. I think I have figured a way to announce the Mercury in an honorable way, and not violate any rules or ethics.

Thank you to everybody that has contributed to developments !

knowbusiness Wrote:
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> This thread has direct affect on my
> "business"(business would seem to indicate that
> you make a profit, which is not the case with me),
> I have around $5,000.oo invested in research for a
> robust, and reliable liquid cooled hot end. I
> have endured dealing with some of the least
> reliable "engineers" I have ever come across, it
> is not like I have never dealt with engineers
> before, being a tool & die maker for 27 years
> before being disabled.


One benefit of open hardware is that the more eyes that are on the project, the less likely it is that something like that will happen. In terms of what can be done to increase awareness of your project all that is required in many cases is simply to participate in the community. You mention the E3D hot end and one of the reasons it is successful is that they engage the community. After a while one gets to know whom is whom and the various skills one brings to the table. That's why when Sanjay, or Jolly Grim Reaper or Traumflug (and others) post I make it a point to read what they have to say. iImay not always agree with their opinion but I respect what they have to say and know that they are coming from a place of integrity and they believe in what they are saying. That reputation can't be developed overnight and requires effort in the same way designing a worthy piece of equipment requires effort.

Ok I have to say that I already see a problem with this. I understand the intent behind how this rule is implemented, and I appreciate it but I think it might be a bit misguided. Product development, crowd funding and discussing open source products/projects is the core of growing reprap. Are we just not supposed to talk about the advances in new product designs just because they are for sale somewhere? I just had this post about new printing materials becoming available moved to for sale section and that doesn't make any sense to me. At best it belongs in the materials section for further discussion . JGR says "the self promotion part really relates to people who are selling something in a webstore and recommending it to people who ask without actually declaring that they are the ones who gain/profit from that recommendation." and I understand his sentiment but in this one instance I don't own the product or sell it, I'm not sure why it was moved.

At it's core open source hardware is nothing but promoting owns own designs by sharing them with the world. I have a blog, if I write an article about an awesome print, product, design, that is directly related the the furtherment of 3d printing and reprap where does that fit in. It's not selling something but it's linked to my store.

If someone is asking for a source for a product should those posts be moved too? They are asking for others to promote a product. Just looking at the first few pages of the general forum you can see that a large number of posts should be moved under these guidelines.

What about if someone is asking questions related to developing their own open hardware design? That is self promotion as well

I don't think that self promotion should be considered spam. Advertising is what needs to be considered spam. Maybe they were all deleted but I never have thought this site had much of a spam problem short of spambot posting. I think we are taking the wrong move here. Reprap, as a concept/product cannot grow without a large number of people involved and promoting the work they are doing. If we are to stay in the fore front of this technology we have to recognize that many lines are going to be blurred and need to have a more progressive way of managing that.

*edit* I would like to add that as far as a sales posts do go we need a much better system. There is a good chance that some of these are getting put in the general section because the one on here needs work. I have one site I spend time on that I think does a great job. They have sections for personal sales, group buys manufactures and vendors. I would also recommend an ebay area, many small companies out there only sell on ebay because they don't have the money or knowhow to setup a webstore.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2013 12:54AM by jzatopa.

I've moved it back to the general thread, and it's still visible in the for sale section,

Drawing the proverbial line in the sand seems to require more than one line, so far this was the only one so far that has been moved, I'm going to guage opinions on a more specific version of the self promotion and advertising part of the rules in the admin thread

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-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

If there is to be anew products topic it would be great if it were near the top of the forum rather than down with the obits and surgical suports.

TC

bobc Wrote:
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> Unfortunately whatever wording is chosen, there
> will be grey area between spam and legitimate
> discussion.
>
> I would vote for an "Announcements and New
> Products" sub-forum, where people can post and
> discuss announcements whether they have a
> financial interest or not, without cluttering up
> the General forum.

TCase Wrote:
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> If there is to be anew products topic it would be
> great if it were near the top of the forum rather
> than down with the obits and surgical suports.
>
> TC

My support for these two gentlemen

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Are we just not supposed to talk about the advances in new product designs just because they are for sale somewhere? I just had this post about new printing materials becoming available moved to for sale section and that doesn't make any sense to me.

I think we're supposed to discuss development here. This new filament neither comes with instructions on how to create it nor is there anything to be developed. As such, the For Sale section wasn't a bad choice.

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If there is to be anew products topic it would be great if it were near the top of the forum rather than down with the obits and surgical suports.

If you consider buying industrial stuff to be more important than development, then yes, this would be the way to go. Essentially, this means discouraging doing development. Likely not a good way to forward the community.

That said, you can bookmark the For Sale instead of the General section, of course. New products will end up there.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

vegasloki Wrote:

>
You
> mention the E3D hot end and one of the reasons it
> is successful is that they engage the community.

I cannot find anywhere that E3D has been mentioned except by you, although I do find the tactics Sanjay has used to be more like sales than advancing any development, just my opinion. Your comments do not make me any more inclined to share developments with the community, quite the opposite.

I am not a salesman, and have no desire to be, the things we make are sold/presented to potential buyers on their merits. Even on our own website we are as honest as can be, and we are the ONLY people giving any sort or warranty/guarantee. I am responsible for sales, even though that is something I despise. I used eBay, exclusively, up until a few months ago, my physical limitations make it extremely difficult for me to do anything. That makes my time extremely valuable, as such, I would prefer to spend my precious time doing things I enjoy, like developing something that many people would also enjoy. I do not enjoy debating you, or anybody, and my way with words is not very appealing to most people.

We seek out people that we think will benefit the project, and we can work with without too many problems. Disagreements are normal and help to sort out any problems that might arise from the large variety of skills, and approaches to different issues. When I started doing this, I decided that it would be better in the long run to have people not directly involved in manufacture be involved in the research, even before beta testing. Bring people on board at almost the conceptual point. We have several people help with the project, not the entire world, the Mercury project had 6 outside people on board, although only 2 actually contributed anything of any use. We do not open up completely to the world, that would not give us any advantage at all. Although the 3D printers of the world might benefit, it would make it such that we would not have any monetary rewards at all. We would not be able to continue very long if we were not able to make at least a little money. Remember the Soviet Union ?

The projects we take on are always the type that the average person does not have the equipment, and possibly knowledge to achieve. We do not have the abilities that larger companies, but we do have MUCH much more than most people have. You do not see very many larger companies doing much development in the less profitable areas, they have to have large profits, the market is simply not large enough to justify the expense. As a small company our over head is low enough that we do not need as large of market, however we still need to make some profit, if not we cannot finance any development. To recover MY personal investment, we need to find a way to get the word out, and we WANT to do so in an honorable way.

Honestly, I have been considering stopping any development in things for sale, things that benefit many people. Having people try to manipulate us is very discouraging, whether it be a single engineer costing us a lot of time and money, or people on forums trying to influence our established methods of development by trying to get us to share EVERYTHING.

I see a HUGE amount of hypocrisy on forums, as mentioned by jzatopa, even more by other people launching their products on forums in a manner that is only slightly veiled in a look of tech support. This sort of thing does not encourage me to be part of the RepRap community at all. Notice that I have not put any links to our website, or signed this posting with anything that would drive sales. I have done so in the past, but my association with RepRap is now becoming questionable. I have spent enough time and energy on this, I say goodbye.

Hi Guys, in my humble opinion, the admins should not clamp down too hard on posts of any kind. Even new announcements, kickstarters, etc.

If the readers think something is crap, they can say so right in the post. Posts that are interesting will see a lot of activity and debate, and posts that are crap will sink down off the front page very quickly.

One of RepRap's greatest strengths is its chaotic and free-flowing nature. It would be a shame if heavy-handed (but perhaps well meaning) admins killed interest in the forum by meddling too much.

I want to point out that the appearance of a conflict of interest can cause problems, even if there is not actually any real conflict of interest. So, for example, if a person is a moderator and they run a shop and they have multiple links in their signature and they go around telling people what they can and cannot post, it starts to look a little strange.

I recommend the first rule in the Rules and Guidelines be changed to something like:

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proposed new rule for advertising
The RepRap forums thrive on a lively discussion of current developments in 3D printing and other areas of advanced manufacturing. Posts that introduce new products and technologies for discussion are welcome and encouraged. However, posts that are simply intended to advertise a product or publicize a crowdfunding attempt do not add significantly to the discussion. Such posts may be deleted or moved to a more appropriate subforum at the moderator's discretion.

Traumflug, how is the release of three new filaments not development in the 3D printing space? I think you are being a bit myopic. New materials open up a whole new world of what is printable.

I think matts proposed change to the forum rules is a much closer to what is needed but I would remove the crowdfunding aspect. A large part of reprap is crowdfunded now, which I will admit falls into a gray area but I don't think it's discussion shouldn't be limited. It is how a vast majority of open source projects are developed,funded and shared with the world.

proposed new rule for advertising - amended
The RepRap forums thrive on a lively discussion of current developments in 3D printing and other areas of advanced manufacturing. Posts that introduce new products and technologies for discussion are welcome and encouraged. However, posts that are simply intended to advertise a product or that do not add significantly to the discussion are not welcome. Such posts may be deleted or moved to a more appropriate subforum at the moderator's discretion.



I would also like to reiterate that I really don't think that this is the largest problem with the forums. I think that the forums have a lot more low hanging fruit which we should be tackling first. A part of the issues we are discussing might easily be mitigated indirectly.

I also want to point out that I appreciate what JGR is trying to do, and I appreciate that it is not easy. I just think that this is a step that is not taking us down the path to really growing reprap into something even greater.

*edit* I also didn't realize how much I cared about the direction of this site until writing this post. I would be more then happy to be more involved with the process of fixing up the reprap forums. I think that all of us can agree that they have been somewhat neglected and there is work that needs to be done.

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

Are we just not supposed to talk about the
> advances in new product designs just because they
> are for sale somewhere? I just had this post about
> new printing materials becoming available moved to
> for sale section and that doesn't make any sense
> to me.

>
> I think we're supposed to discuss development
> here. This new filament neither comes with
> instructions on how to create it nor is there
> anything to be developed. As such, the For Sale
> section wasn't a bad choice.
>
>

Quote

If there is to be anew products topic it
> would be great if it were near the top of the
> forum rather than down with the obits and surgical
> suports.

>
> If you consider buying industrial stuff to be more
> important than development, then yes, this would
> be the way to go. Essentially, this means
> discouraging doing development. Likely not a good
> way to forward the community.
>
> That said, you can bookmark the For Sale instead
> of the General section, of course. New products
> will end up there.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2013 02:48PM by jzatopa.

Quote

how is the release of three new filaments not development in the 3D printing space?

It's definitely in the 3D printing space, but neither community development nor open source. In the same vein we could post about every new stepper motor, stepper driver, threaded rod, toothbelt, whatever, which was detected as spam before. That's why I consider it to be advertising blonging into the For Sale section.

This will change when it comes to applying this filament on RepRap printers. Can't happen, yet, because there are no samples, yet (AFAIK).

It's possible to change this policy, of course. Some communities explicitely encourage to post product announcements. Then we'll get posts about all this industrial stuff, of course, not only kickstarted filament.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Regarding the new filaments posting, it seems that these new filaments have some unique properties (higher stiffness, higher temp) that make them significantly different from existing filaments, and hence, not just another new product. Also the fact that they do material testing, and on actual printed parts, is a pretty significant development, especially given all the complaints about variations in filaments from different manufacturers.

I think this is a good case study of what should go into the General section v. the For Sale section.

I'm not sure why this is a big deal to the sellers around here. This particular thread has been up for about a week now and it has a few hundred views. Many of those views are likely duplicates from people interested in the thread coming back to keep up on the thread. I would not call that an essential advertising tool. You are better off posting your design on thingiverse or selling on ebay, emakershop, etc.. You'll get far more exposure that way. And we can keep this forum pure as the wind driven snow without hurting anyone.
And in case anyone wants to get offended, I'm a "seller" too. Just not a full time RepRap business man.