$199 50 Micron 3D Printer ...too good to be true?

While I have always had good results with Qubd stuff I know some people have problems. They posted this to their Kickstarter and I was blown away as I have never been able to do that with any of my 3 printers (solidoodle, mendel and printrbot lc).

[www.kickstarter.com]

Why can't I get results like this from my printers?

I don't trust their engineering skills. Besides, they're running a scampaign. What's a scampaign you ask? I've said it before and I'll post it again

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the formula to a successful scampaign is quite simple. Forget about ideas and development. That stuff matters very little. Start with a price. For instance, if you can build a reprap for $500-600 dollars from shops online, your kickstarter should set a price of $400 dollars or lower. Then, build a prototype of whatever you want to sell and make (dubious) claims that you'll be shipping something like that for the price you selected. Finally, replace all of the quality components in said product with shittier versions and/or cut corners until you achieve the profit margin you want. (Don't worry about achieving your stated goals. You are hardly obligated to do anything once you've gotten the money.) And last but not least, throw your pile of cash onto your bed and roll around in it. SUCCESSFUL KICKSTARTER!

I'm not claiming that all KS projects go this way, but people have dumped abandoned piles of expensive KS trash at my hackerspace that don't just borderline on scams -- but IMO were scams. These projects were enabled by following the million dollar KS formula I just laid out. By not enforcing their own rules, KS allows shit like this to happen time and time again... and in the end it tarnishes the good name of legitimate projects like Smoothieboard, which let the true cost of a quality product dictate the price at which it is sold.

From the KS site: "Backers are supporting projects to help them come to life, not to profit financially. Instead, project creators offer rewards to thank backers for their support.... Backing a project is more than just giving someone money. It’s supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world."

Tell me how pledging money at a 3d printer, which has no new innovation, helps anything come to life? In the history of KS and all the money put into 3d printers on that site, how many of those things have brought to life something that didn't already exist as open source within the reprap project? I'd say pretty close to zero. Translation: KS is blatantly allowing non-innovative projects to be funded so that they can get profit. I'm honestly confused why there aren't more people as jaded as I am...

I don't see why this wouldn't work, but you get what you pay for. I also have trouble believing that they are making a decent margin at this price point.

Ah the myth of the charitable KS campaign. The legends are false. Do not believe it is so.

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you get what you pay for

Actually, since KS is (in it's own words) NOT A PREORDER SITE, you don't always get what you pay for. But don't worry, if it doesn't print 50 microns you can always return it right? Oh, that's right... once you give them your money, they don't have a whole lot of obligations to make good on their "goals".

Word to the wise. Never trust a kickstarter scampaign that looks like a pre-order. It's just another way that a fool and his money are easily parted.

i can understand people being tight on money, after all i'm normally tight myself, however isn't $500 to $700 for a machine that prints objects in 3d at an already reasonable resolution (0.1mm) cheap enough, i'm not seeing a lot of improvment in many of the newer machines usually they are a rehash of something that works just as well

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-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

jzatopa Wrote:
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> I don't see why this wouldn't work, but you get
> what you pay for. I also have trouble believing
> that they are making a decent margin at this price
> point.

If you read through the description there is a bit about how they can offer at that price. A look at the minimalist design and a "napkin math" BOM indicate the components can be assembled and offered at this price. On the base printer there is no heated bed and the build area is small. They've minimized the mechanical components required so that the stepper motors, AT Mega and the stepper drivers are the most expensive individual parts. Doing the machine work in house and using minimal electronics adds to the cost benefit. I agree with JGR that the newer low cost designs aren't using anything new in terms of technology. What they are doing is value engineering the designs to include only what is necessary then taking what is required and designing for manufacturing using inexpensive methods that scale much better that one could with a DIY Reprap. The one thing I don't see though is how the machine is going to be supported. That and the timelyness of the fulfilliment will determine if this is a one shot deal or can be sustained.

I think 50 micron might be the minimum step height. Like my printer has 1/(400half-steps/revolution x 5 revolutions/cm) = 5μm. Of course that is pointlessly low(not that having it higher is pointful) and possibly not in the range of accuracy of the threads themselves. 50μm might decrease the ridges at the cost of much slower printing, but isnt useful much otherwise if your nozzle size is larger than 0.1mm i reckon. According to the main page they have a 0.4mm nozzle.

thejollygrimreaper Wrote:
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> i can understand people being tight on money,
> after all i'm normally tight myself, however isn't
> $500 to $700 for a machine that prints objects in
> 3d at an already reasonable resolution (0.1mm)
> cheap enough, i'm not seeing a lot of improvment
> in many of the newer machines usually they are a
> rehash of something that works just as well

It's Economics 101, the supply/demand curve. Cheaper prices creates higher demand. Opportunity cost plays a part.

Perhaps all KS projects should get the approval of iquizzle first? There are 9 billion fools on the planet, if you want to handhold all of them you are going to be very busy. As long as no laws broken and they are not harming others, let them have their fun Many people will do things you don't personally approve of, you have to get over that or go crazy.

Either the campaigns are new development, and there is a risk they may not produce a good result, or they are for a fully developed and tested product., in which case they are regarded as "preorders". If you want new development and a perfect product that is not a pre-order, that is an impossible target. By that standard, no KS campaign would ever be approved! Would you rather just ban KS, and allow people to only buy Apple products form the Apple Store?

KS spans a niche between complete blue-sky research which need not produce anything tangible, to products which are nearly ready for launch but require some up front capital to get into production, although backers are more willing ti fund the latter. Both types of campaign are useful.

"Innovation" in the KS sense does not refer to new technology, but to new works. If you are making a movie or writing a book, there is no technical innovation, so it's clearly not requirement.

I find RepRap community quite quixotic. On one hand people want to find ways for Open Source developers to fund their development - which is a reasonable goal - although some of the methods suggested are unworkable. Then when Open Source developers raise funds for development by running a Kickstarter they get unjustified slagging off for their attempt. You can't win!

Quote

I find RepRap community quite quixotic.

If everything is about price, there's a risk of RepRap becoming a synonym for trash developments. Not in this case, the word "RepRap" isn't even mentioned on this page.

We're close to the point where building printers DIY is no longer cheaper than buying an assembled one. The KS discussed here is an example where ordering individual parts is no longer cheaper than a kit. Going past these points will change the community.

That's open source, guys. Open source isn't a smooth economy full of flowers, it's more like a shark basin.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

i do believe this could work, just as i still believe the makibox will work for that price.
i also believe this is the way that reprap will go, in that people will sell kits excluding the plastic,
since more people will have printers and it will be easy to print the parts even if you don't yet have a printer at home.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not losing any sleep over it. I got 10 hours last night. If people want to make bad purchases, that's their privilege. But when people use kickstarter to solicit free attention/advertising for their product it's already a false pretense. If it ends up here on the reprap forums and someone wants feedback from reprap users -- well as a reprap user and builder, when it's in my face, I have an opinion and might just give it. These guys don't need money to launch a business. They already have one that started on a KS campaign. They've figured out the kickstarter formula for success and they want to exploit it.

I don't sell things because I have a very high standard for what I would feel comfortable making a profit on. I would lose sleep if I were peddling garbage on kickstarter to make a quick buck, taking people's money and not even playing by kickstarter's own rules. I'm going to say something when I feel that other people are doing it. I was raised in the midwest. That's how we roll.


bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thejollygrimreaper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > i can understand people being tight on money,
> > after all i'm normally tight myself, however
> isn't
> > $500 to $700 for a machine that prints objects
> in
> > 3d at an already reasonable resolution (0.1mm)
> > cheap enough, i'm not seeing a lot of
> improvment
> > in many of the newer machines usually they are
> a
> > rehash of something that works just as well
>
> It's Economics 101, the supply/demand curve.
> Cheaper prices creates higher demand. Opportunity
> cost plays a part.
>
> Perhaps all KS projects should get the approval of
> iquizzle first? There are 9 billion fools on the
> planet, if you want to handhold all of them you
> are going to be very busy. As long as no laws
> broken and they are not harming others, let them
> have their fun Many people will do things you
> don't personally approve of, you have to get over
> that or go crazy.
>
> Either the campaigns are new development, and
> there is a risk they may not produce a good
> result, or they are for a fully developed and
> tested product., in which case they are regarded
> as "preorders". If you want new development and a
> perfect product that is not a pre-order, that is
> an impossible target. By that standard, no KS
> campaign would ever be approved! Would you rather
> just ban KS, and allow people to only buy Apple
> products form the Apple Store?
>
> KS spans a niche between complete blue-sky
> research which need not produce anything tangible,
> to products which are nearly ready for launch but
> require some up front capital to get into
> production, although backers are more willing ti
> fund the latter. Both types of campaign are
> useful.
>
> "Innovation" in the KS sense does not refer to new
> technology, but to new works. If you are making a
> movie or writing a book, there is no technical
> innovation, so it's clearly not requirement.
>
> I find RepRap community quite quixotic. On one
> hand people want to find ways for Open Source
> developers to fund their development - which is a
> reasonable goal - although some of the methods
> suggested are unworkable. Then when Open Source
> developers raise funds for development by running
> a Kickstarter they get unjustified slagging off
> for their attempt. You can't win!

possenier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i do believe this could work, just as i still
> believe the makibox will work for that price.
> i also believe this is the way that reprap will
> go, in that people will sell kits excluding the
> plastic,
> since more people will have printers and it will
> be easy to print the parts even if you don't yet
> have a printer at home.


One of the reasons Makibox and Qu-BU can offer the price point is that they aren't using printed parts. FFF is great for custom, prototype or small batch but doesn't scale well for production. A US$3k laser cutter can produce more parts per hour than 6 bots (which is around the same price).

iquizzle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These guys don't need money to
> launch a business. They already have one that
> started on a KS campaign. They've figured out the
> kickstarter formula for success and they want to
> exploit it.

Right, that is what KS is there for. Why should they not use the facilities provided?

> I don't sell things because I have a very high
> standard for what I would feel comfortable making
> a profit on. I would lose sleep if I were
> peddling garbage on kickstarter to make a quick
> buck, taking people's money and not even playing
> by kickstarter's own rules.

If you think a project is against KS rules, you can report it.

To be honest, the message I get is "there are some guys making money in a way I would not, and I don't like it !!!".

Accusing these legitimate campaigns of being scams just because you are not happy with their technical merit is misleading, and devalues the term. That is my opinion.

If you really want it, I would wait until it or its documentation has been released, then build or buy it depending on the opinion of the KS backers.

It should be reported. Kickstarter is not a site for pre-ordering things. Why? Because they have no policy of returns and people who are funded have little responsibilities after they have received the funding. If someone does not feel that they have received the product they supported or it does not meet the claims of the project, there is no liability on the part of the campaigners.

I have no problem with people making money... But kickstarter is not a store. Is that really difficult to comprehend? When people who campaign use it as a pre-order site, they have abused the system to gain leniency in the responsibilities of the product that they ship. Why should anyone trust them?

Quote

Have you ever built a printer? If yes you should know that they don't really earn too much at the price offered.

I fail to see how their profit margins are relevant to iquizzle's objections.

crispy1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I fail to see how their profit margins are
> relevant to iquizzle's objections.


One assumption he makes is that all projects are to be viewed as scams regardless of what it is or who is doing it hence Qu-BU must be out to fleece people. It seems to me rumba is saying that the margins aren't big and it's not a gravy train, but just another business. From the looks of things they have a pretty serious investment already and are a known quantity in the 3D printer space. Good luck to them.

Al Capone was from the mid west too. That's how they roll.

The profit margin has little to do with this. I'll tell you what they're not doing. They aren't running a charity, they're making money.

Let's play hypotheticals. Suppose I were an unconscionable person who didn't give a lick about screwing people over. In my kickstarter campaign, I'm free to make whatever dubious claims about my product I want.

Quote
Buy my printer. It can print 10 micron layers. It is faster than any printer on the market. The designs were created by Leonardo da Vinci, lost in a cave and revealed to me by God Himself as a gift for all humanity. By the way, it's only $200, what do you have to lose? wink wink

Nobody has ever held my printer except me. Nobody has ever tested it and formed a review. Who knows what this thing is actually capable of? Can anybody really be sure that my claims aren't true? If you were a total starry-eyed newb to 3d printing, you might think "hey, this seems ok. I think I'll give it a shot".

My campaign gets tons of money and succeeds. Now the ball is in my court. I take your money and put it straight into investments. Meanwhile, I chip away at the quality of the parts I provide and sit on the dividends of your cash. In two years, you get a box in the mail. Remember that time you ordered a 3d printer? You open it up, try to assemble it and find that this thing is a total piece of junk. It can't print 300micron layers with quality, and it repeatedly fails, binds up during prints and is nearly un-useable. After you spend $100 on wasted filament trying to get a decent print, you give up. You think to yourself, "hey those guys really cheated me! I want a refund!". But guess what -- you can't get one! Once you've pledged your money on KS and have expectations for where it will get you, you've really set yourself up for disappointment.


This is what *can* happen if you treat kickstarter like a store. Believe me, I've seen some of the terrible projects that come from kickstarter (not just 3d printers). This IS happening just as I described it. If you treat kickstarter like a pre-order site, then you are potentially buying from someone that has no other venue with which to peddle their junk. If a single person bought and reviewed some of the kickstarter projects that were essentially pre-sales, then a lot of the things that get sold on there would never see the light of day again. People have almost a religious optimism for that site. If nobody ever says anything, then this is allowed to continue over and over.

If your kickstarter is essentially a pre-order, then there's really no choice but to think that there's no way you could sell your product by legitimate means. If a $200 printer is actually "too good to be true", you'll sell a gaggle of them in the conventional way.

I own a QU-BD Revolution printer, and I can say: It's a good machine at a good price, and it has a few problems.

That's the thing -- not every printer is a scam or a gift from god. There is something in between (i.e. reality). When you build a RepRap, you expect to invest a lot of time to get the perfect print. When you buy a hardware package like this one one, you should expect the same thing. It could be a really good buy if you have patience.

QU-BD Strengths:
- Mechanical construction / solid parts
- Reasonable prices

Weaknesses:
- Extruders
- Staying on schedule

my personal opinion is that QUBD team should be ashamed.

they are lets call it company with high technology, they are in busness some time, have 2 different machine models in stock, and now they are asking for more founds.

what are they doing all time? or they just preffer easy way, hey people we will make new printer, give us the money...

i think they just use kickstarter to get to a lot of people without having to pay to much in advertising.
Since they offer that discount directly to the people by giving them a 199$ printer i really don't mind either.
the more people getting in 3D printing, the better.

so, they say:
The QU-BD One Up is the world's first production ready 3D printer to break the $200 barrier. It uses industry standard technology and electronics and everything is OPEN SOURCE!

The source files will all be released a couple days BEFORE the Kickstarter campaign ends!

Canpaign ended, but i cant find source...

you just live in real time the transformation of a crowdfunding site to a new advertising media chanel

And it works ! I can tell.. If you're not coming with a finished "product" to sell, there's no interest .

would love to see their bom too

Any updates on this printer? QUBD's site claims it ships in April (one week to go)

I have been following it pretty closely on their KS.

They are behind on shipments as most KS projects are. Some people are pretty pissed about that but it is the nature of the beast.

If you weed through the comments and ignore the whining masses about shipment delays, the majority of people that got theirs say its really great for the price. I do not have one but the prints that some people are getting look damn good.