Garcads WATER-COOLED hotend produces high quality ABS prints!

cooling options aside, I don't see a vast improvement on print quality...

Lol...I saw that coming...im speaking about JUST air cooled...yes cars USE air but they still require liquid cooling(via a radiator/anti freeze/ etc.)..I could sit here and try to argue with all the nay-sayers(who are going to hate no matter what I say or do) but the proof is in the pudding. If you seriously think just because something works, that it does not need to be improved then where would 3d printers even be right now? Subtractive manufacturing worked right? Its our human need to make improvements where we see fit, and you can even ask Mr. Prusa...stainless steel is not a good heat conductor...i could list all the faults of other hotends, but i dont need to..i dont need to talk when i can just show more pictures of its awesome sauce prints. And perhaps i went a little overboard saying "best prints ever!" maybe i should have clearified that was not intended to knock anyone elses prints...i was talking about my own prints in general, and the water cooled hotend has done better then any J-Head or ultimachine hotend ive used in the past..I apologize if I offended anyone, was not my intentions but I cannot stand people who do not understand the need for innovation...we have something really amazing here guys...I do not get excited about much but this hotend really has improved my prints and has produced the best ABS prints I have ever seen..heres a picture of the quality of the external perimeters..very smooth, very consistant..did i mention it heats up and cools down in 90 seconds flat? Thats always a bonus and I am pretty sure there is no other hot end out right now that can beat or even match that...in my opinion.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2014 11:20AM by papabur.

best ABS prints you've seen? ok...

Smaller detail capabilities? better bridging(can see not even with blurry video)? cleaner overhangs than any other hot-end on the market(video)? Try printing a 10mm Pink Panther woman or a full bed of chainmail.

Surely you have not tested all hot-ends available out there, just because it is better than what ever your prior hot end was, on your machine, does not make it better than any on the market.

When we see a true innovation, we acknowledge it.....

Kinda sounds like you are pre-Kickstarter hype marketing to me.

We may seem a little harsh, but do you have any idea how many 'best printer out there' claims have come across this forum that couldn't stand the light of day?

Do a forum search on Japica......

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2014 12:05PM by Dirty Steve.

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bobc
I think to demonstrate such a bold claim, you need to have higher res photo/video, because the print doesn't look great from that...

I plan to get a nice camera soon, those are just done with the HD webcam, the pictures seem to be the best i think..

Very impressive Dirty Steve, nice work!

Thanks.

Just saying, we like substantial proof of bold claims.

To be honest I'd be the first to rush out and buy a water cooled hotend if it made a difference.
Our laser cutter/engraver has both watercooling for the tube and air assistance for the head, and all works very well.
I'm not adverse to tanks of water, pumps and compressors where needed.


Can I make a suggestion that isn't sarcastic this time.

Google "Triffid Hunters Calibration"

there are full instructions of how to exactly dial in your hotend while your printer is running.
To be honest, I am getting better prints than you've posted and you should be getting better prints than you've posted too.
They are not amazing prints.

A genuine apology from me for being sarcastic earlier, when you were obviously just excited about improving your prints to that level,
but seriously, Google those words and dial in your temperature and extrusion and them you'll get really excited.

(I'll see if I can post some pics later when I am near my own PC)

i have had my hot end for over a year, its this one, its called the europa. its a great hot end, although there are some features it lacks, like an easy way to change nozzles, and it uses ptfe so it cant be heated too hot. it has a copper heat exchanger and in the heat exchanger is a thermistor. I never actually was able to set it up to control the temperature using the thermistor but it could be done, i just ran the pelt on all the way if i wanted to cool the water. its a 60watt pelt unit with a copper heat echanger on one side to run the water through and a large cpu radiator on the other side that uses heat pipes and an 80mm fan. the pump can squirt the water about 8 feet in the air.
These are done using a .65mm nozzle


soon im replacing it with the kraken hot end from e3d. E3D Kraken

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2014 01:19PM by aduy.

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bobc
Hmm, another advantage is that if the hotend catches fire it can be automatically extinguished.

Also, you could wash the filament in the warm water before it goes in the hotend, make sure it's nice and clean.

I guess there are several advantages I overlooked

the big advantage water cooling is if you're going to use an enclosure the temp inside would not allow you to cool the hot end enough. Bob tends to post on a lot of things that I think he knows nothing about or has tried. Delusions of his intelligence I think

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2014 01:30PM by cnc dick.

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cnc dick

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bobc
Hmm, another advantage is that if the hotend catches fire it can be automatically extinguished.

Also, you could wash the filament in the warm water before it goes in the hotend, make sure it's nice and clean.

I guess there are several advantages I overlooked

the big advantage water cooling is if you're going to use an enclosure the temp inside would not allow you to cool the hot end enough. Bob tends to post on a lot of things that I think he knows nothing about or has tried. Delusions of his intelligence I think

Thanks, dick. There are some professional 3D printers that have dual extruders in a heated chamber and only use air cooling. Seeing as these printers cost $30,000+ if water cooling was a particular advantage I think they would use it.

Generally, I try to only post about things I do know about, if I am not sure I will use words like "I think" or "I guess". If I really don't know, I will say so. It is true that there are people around who just post crap though.

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Dirty Steve
best ABS prints you've seen? ok...

Smaller detail capabilities? better bridging(can see not even with blurry video)? cleaner overhangs than any other hot-end on the market(video)? Try printing a 10mm Pink Panther woman or a full bed of chainmail.

Surely you have not tested all hot-ends available out there, just because it is better than what ever your prior hot end was, on your machine, does not make it better than any on the market.

When we see a true innovation, we acknowledge it.....

Kinda sounds like you are pre-Kickstarter hype marketing to me.

We may seem a little harsh, but do you have any idea how many 'best printer out there' claims have come across this forum that couldn't stand the light of day?

Do a forum search on Japica......

What reprap did you print those prints on?

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Air cooled Hotend that doesn't even need a fan or aluminium cooling fins.

I always follow a "least effort necessary" approach. Everything more than needed is something more that can go wrong.

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bobc
Hmm, another advantage is that if the hotend catches fire it can be automatically extinguished.

Also, you could wash the filament in the warm water before it goes in the hotend, make sure it's nice and clean.

I guess there are several advantages I overlooked

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but the last thing I want my filament touching is water...I have enough trouble with polycarbonate as it is.

all of the enclosed build chamber professional models ive seen actually have just the head of the hot end in the enclosure itself. they have a sort of accordion thing that moves with the carriage to keep the heat in and the cold end out of the heat.

@jzatopa

It's just a home built Prusa Mendel, Wildseyed type hot-end, TB6560 controller board, Mach3, very well tuned.

First comment to set the record straight - VW has been mass producing air cooled engines since the 40's
GM, Most Motorcycles are aircooled

Second Comment, to be fair the results look ok but based on pictures posted and speed claim its far from the best performance on the market but with tuning I could see it work as good as everything else.

Sorry, my stock Budah on a Reprap Air 2 does way better than yours, without watercooling. And it makes way less noise. And last, your LCD says it's a MendelMax

I don't mind you telling us about the watercooling, but claiming it's the best in the market etc just isn't correct!

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bobc

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cnc dick

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bobc
Hmm, another advantage is that if the hotend catches fire it can be automatically extinguished.

Also, you could wash the filament in the warm water before it goes in the hotend, make sure it's nice and clean.

I guess there are several advantages I overlooked

the big advantage water cooling is if you're going to use an enclosure the temp inside would not allow you to cool the hot end enough. Bob tends to post on a lot of things that I think he knows nothing about or has tried. Delusions of his intelligence I think

Thanks, dick. There are some professional 3D printers that have dual extruders in a heated chamber and only use air cooling. Seeing as these printers cost $30,000+ if water cooling was a particular advantage I think they would use it.

Generally, I try to only post about things I do know about, if I am not sure I will use words like "I think" or "I guess". If I really don't know, I will say so. It is true that there are people around who just post crap though.

I am very familiar with professional printers they use outside chamber air source and a plum it through hoses and plastic manifolds actually it's a very complex system and hard to make just to make one-of-a-kind some actually some even use refrigeration to cool the air where is water cooling is easy

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 04:09PM by cnc dick.

so far all we have seen is 3 youtube videos and a questionable picture, a variety of claims with practically no supporting evidence, we haven't even seen a picture or a drawing of the watercooling setup or the hotend itself in any detail

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papabur
...i could list all the faults of other hotends, but i dont need to..i dont need to talk when i can just show more pictures of its awesome sauce prints.

please start listing, i'm sure hotend manufacturers/designers around the world who have already sold thousands of hotends and invested tens of thousands of dollars into prototyping and testing hotends that are now recommended by a substantial percentage of users and proven in their hand, will be on the edge of their seats listening intently,

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papabur
..did i mention it heats up and cools down in 90 seconds flat? Thats always a bonus and I am pretty sure there is no other hot end out right now that can beat or even match that...in my opinion.

heating up in 90 seconds is acceptable,, cooling down in 90 seconds is another issue entirely this tell me your thermal break or thermal barrier (which do you use?) isn't as effective as it should be.


given that similar threads to this are also on at least two other forums both lacking any real detailed information, i suspect this is yet another thread started with the intent of probably advertising something further down the track.

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tjb1

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bobc
Hmm, another advantage is that if the hotend catches fire it can be automatically extinguished.

Also, you could wash the filament in the warm water before it goes in the hotend, make sure it's nice and clean.

I guess there are several advantages I overlooked

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but the last thing I want my filament touching is water...I have enough trouble with polycarbonate as it is.

Sorry that was just my little joke

I'm not saying water cooling is never a good idea, the motor drives I work on are water cooled, but they run from 2kW up. Clearly there is a point where you have a high heat density which requires a higher heat transfer than forced air can provide. I'm just not quite convinced that a single extruder running ABS needs it. For higher temp materials, or multiple hotends in a small package, it may be preferable.

From my experience with water cooling on PC, it's OK for the hobbyist if you are prepared to tinker with it, watch out for leaks, keep water topped up etc. For an end-user, who wants a plug and play system, it's not so simple to package so it's maintenance free. Water cooled PCs are a very niche market enthusiasts, the general market is air cooled.

For comparison, a PC CPU at full speed dissipates up to 120W, a GPU 250W+, and they are air cooled, although the fan/coolers can be pretty big and/or noisy.

---

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Open Source in a nutshell: the Four Freedoms
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Well I have seen pics of it in action. and extruding PEEK.

I will confirm that the water-cooled hotend has officially extruded PEEK, unfortunately though until the price per foot on the material goes down, it is nothing more then to show the overall capabilities that having water cooling can produce..Your smoking kraken if you think any other hot end out right now is going to let you reach 390c*.
(update) -This was done with a ultimaker's 19V supply, and room temp to 350C in 60 seconds

*-Sorry for the mispost earlier I stated 600c when in fact it was actually 390c. C/F confusion.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2014 03:15PM by papabur.

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papabur
I will confirm that the water-cooled hotend has officially extruded PEEK, unfortunately though until the price per foot on the material goes down, it is nothing more then to show the overall capabilities that having water cooling can produce..Your smoking kraken if you think any other hot end out right now is going to let you reach 390c*.
(update) -This was done with a ultimaker's 19V supply, and room temp to 350C in 60 seconds

*-Sorry for the mispost earlier I stated 600c when in fact it was actually 390c. C/F confusion.

i've got prototype all metal hotends i did nearly a year ago which were able to hit 500c+ , the Arcol has been able to do similar temperatures as well as the E3D and mk7 hotends, it's nothing particularly new under the sun .

have you got any more pictures of "awesome sauce prints." to show off yet? maybe a list of faults of other hotends?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2014 06:46PM by thejollygrimreaper.

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ditto.....

Garcads Water cooled hotend in action, nice work tx_!:
[imgur.com]

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2014 01:04AM by papabur.

your calibrations are off, that's a really bad top finish.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2014 01:09AM by Dirty Steve.

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papabur
Garcads Water cooled hotend in action, nice work tx_!:
[imgur.com]

under extruding and calibration aside, the infill looks like it's varying at different spots however that could be the filament drive mechanism, curved objects like this also hide certain behaviour eg start stop conditions on corners, this is also quite a small print have you got photos for bigger objects where the print time has been several hours?

not really seeing anything that lives up to the claim, still waiting on the list of faults too......

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Seriously guys, let it rest. If he wants to think he has the best hotend on the market, let him.

What's the point of being snarky and arguing?

Steve, you've got great prints, and you know what you're doing, so why waste your time on this?

To anyone else who may not know better, spend 10 minutes looking at prints and other hot ends and you'll quickly realized that there is nothing special to see here.

Papabur, keep chugging. Iterate, iterate, iterate. Good job on what you've managed to do. Keep striving to improve.

level of standards......lower the bar for no one.

Can't accept the claims when it is clear that the fundamentals of calibration are not even in place. Probably nothing wrong at all with the previous hot end, if you know how to use it.

Would you not be über-pissed if you payed for one of these based on their claims, and it's a POS?

Would you rather that we let Japica continue with the crap they were trying to sell?

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2014 11:02AM by Dirty Steve.

To be honest, from the beginning on, my troll alarm was ringing.. Still not sure, but still.. Yeah seems like a troll. Or he's oblivious.