Reprap 2014?

Just FYI to anyone interested, there is another conversation about this topic going on here.

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MattMoses

use #3A, without the & and ;

Example:

[ url =http : //reprap.org/wiki/Special%3ASpecialPages]Wiki Special Pages [ / url]

Take the spaces out and post it and you get:

[reprap.org]

Oh I know, that's what I've been doing. It's not really a fix though as much as a workaround. It's also still a pain when things get converted to smileys when you don't want them to.

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Help improve the RepRap wiki! Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing. Anyone can edit the wiki!

I motion to elect nophead as King.

But on a serious note, the mendel90 page is easily one is the best. I think it's a note of personal responsibly; I believe the solution is to get specific people on cetrain developments and tasks. We should have a section where someone pitches an idea ( who wants to develop fudge printing? Here's my idea ) and then people join them more officially than just giving their input. Exchanging emails maybe, getting a working group going. That's the best way to see real progress.

But I'm really all for limiting the forum sections and sticking more tightly to the titles. Research and development needs to be separated from tech support. Heck, send tech support to /r/reprap

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SamS
But I'm really all for limiting the forum sections

Maybe I read this wrong but I read it as consolidate forums. If that is so how exactly is less organized supposed to help? We need more specific forums but in only a few forum sections (see my detailed explanation in the other thread in the appropriate section [forums.reprap.org] ). If I misunderstood I apologize.

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SamS
Heck, send tech support to /r/reprap

Having people get help where no one has to be responsible (for misinformation) longer than it takes to push the conversation off the screen is not a good system, I actually can not think of a worse system. Where as in a forum every word you say is preserved for as long as the server exists and allows people to come into the conversation days later and add corrections and details which is far better. Plus it means you do not have to repeat yourself constantly, you can just redirect people the one of the last thousand times that question has been answered.

If you think there needs to be a specific forum to develop a specific idea, ask for it in the admin section and it will be created. Unlikely to be used since most people do not get past the General section.

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SamS
We should have a section where someone pitches an idea ( who wants to develop fudge printing? Here's my idea ) and then people join them more officially than just giving their input.

We have this.
We totally have this.
It's right here.
It works.
Everything is tested,
and running,
and there's a tutorial up on the wiki.
Nobody uses it.

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MattMoses

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SamS
We should have a section where someone pitches an idea ( who wants to develop fudge printing? Here's my idea ) and then people join them more officially than just giving their input.

We have this.
We totally have this.
It's right here.
It works.
Everything is tested,
and running,
and there's a tutorial up on the wiki.
Nobody uses it.

I think SamS is suggesting ideas which don't have a monetary incentive. They're more like "come and work on this project for a fun challenge". I don't think that should be discouraged, which the bounties section currently appears to do.

I'm not sure what kind of modifications you're thinking of, but the way I see it there's loads of exciting developments. The RepRapPro Ormerod is quite different, as is Mendel90. But to name a few completely different designs:

Rostock: [www.youtube.com]
Morgan: [www.youtube.com]
Simpson: [www.youtube.com]

RepRap certainly isn't running dry!

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samp20
I think SamS is suggesting ideas which don't have a monetary incentive. They're more like "come and work on this project for a fun challenge".

Well, we have a subforum for that too: Let's design something! (I've got an idea ...)

We do indeed (I should have realised that in my last post). It seem a large number of topics are all ideas and no actual work, which is a bit disappointing. Maybe we need to stop talking and get doing!

I know alot of machine specific development goes on in the various forums of the companies that produced the machine. For example, I've completed several major redesigns of the lulzbot AO-100 chassis that I only documented in the lulzbot developer forum: [forum.lulzbot.com] Things like adding linear z rails, adding ballscrews, frame modifications, X end modifications to mitigate banding, Lighting modifications etc. I generally don't post them elsewhere because I didn't feel there would be that much interest from people who don't have a printer that is compatable with those parts. I know there is a simlar level of development on the various other major manufacturer forums. the mendelmax 2.0 forums, the ultimaker peoples, etc. I like to go look around at the other forums for inspiration and ideas of things to design for my printer, and there is a fair amount of development out there still. I've noticed it tends to go in waves though. Right now many developers seem to be focusing on heated bed and 24 volt electronic configurations. There is also a huge amount of development on the various delta style printers, and making "standard" printers larger.

As far as I am concerned, there are still plenty of things that could be improved on most 3d printer designs. Many of those improvements will add complexity, and that's where some people I think balk and become discouraged with the printer design business, but there are loads of niche areas that haven't been explored yet. What about printers with integrated inkjet finishing (print and paint)? A better software method to include foreign materials (wire, carbon fiber thread, fiber optic cables, etc) at time of build, or adding Radio Frequincy sensitive particles to extruder filament to create a part that could be printed then RF welded internally for additional strength? Food printers that don't produce goopy drippy messes. Printing with extruded and instantly set UV sensitive dental resins, etc. Those are just half a dozen or so ideas that I personally probably don't have the requisite skills to fully implement, but could probably contribute to successfully. I know there are tons of ideas yet still out there to implement, and plenty of people working to do exactly that.

There does need to be a better incentive to get some people to produce things. Volunteer production for the good of humanity with no positive tax repercussions only works so far for some people, and it seems very difficult to monitize an open source design if you aren't prepared to also produce and ship parts and assemblies. I design things open source because I want to have the best printer out there, and I'm not trying to make money off of it, but I can see how putting hours of labor into a major upgrade design with no expectation of payoff ever would be off putting to some. things like the Bounty program or various contests help with that issue, and the best open source designers often eventually get hired somewhere due to that design skill, but I don't see many people being able to make a living as an open source part designer alone, which for many is going to automatically relegate their design work to "something to do as a hobby after I get all my other hobby fun things done"

I dunno. Maybe i'm missing an element in the design philosophy. In open source software you see a bunch more "donate to fund development" buttons than you do for 3d printer design work. For me it's not an issue because I'm not designing things for a paycheck. But that may be why it seems like there is less design work now than there used to be.

Sorry for the overly long rambling post.

Tim

what we are seeing to a degree is the realization that developers need to eat ,

we have people on this forum and the on the wiki and forum whose sole contribution to either is a link to their website in either the for-sale section or in multiple places in the wiki, of course some of them use ignorance of how to edit pages in the wiki as justification for not contributing much more than that ... yeah ok

some of these people we have links to are also the same people that have been screwing people over with bad jhead clones which haven't seen a day of testing and have been produced so poorly they don't even get the number of milled slots correct yet they are still linked in the wiki and likely in the forsale section - go and read some of the descriptions these people write some even claim to be the original developers of the jhead!

then we have the printed parts guys who have a garage with 10 to 30 printers running 24hrs a day running off parts for ebay with no interest in sending not one lousy dollar to the developer who made it possible in the first place, most of these people don't even have an account on either the forum or the wiki and almost soley exist on ebay! and in some cases make a living off it

then we have the ones who get an idea ( sometimes a good one) and feel the urge to go running to kick-starter with nothing more than the interest than sucking people in and making a quick dollar on it ... and of course very little (if any) testing

is it any wonder development seems to be slowing down? while i would agree we have seen some interesting developments in the hotend market a lot of development is now kept hidden behind closed doors and just pops into existence or is published only on personal blogs a lot of people getting into this only seem to care about how they are going to make money on it, not how they can make it better and share the results.....

personally i advocate the removal of some of these people off the wiki and forum who don't actively contribute and use the wiki and forum for nothing than an advertising hub

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piercet
I don't see many people being able to make a living as an open source part designer alone

You can't see such people because with everything being open source, the value of the result of their work, intellectual property, has zero value. Accordingly, their actual work has zero value, too.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Hi,

I find myself in a similar situation as gman, in the sense of having joined this community recently and (curiously) using also Prusa I3...
Personally, I find the RepRap project extraordinarily alive and kicking...perhaps too much...and that seems to be the source of some problems...There is such an effervescence of new ideas and proposals that the thing is getting a bit turmoilish, so it is easy to get blinded when one enters fresh.
However, I believe reprap.org has still a long run as the reference for open-source hardware and digital manufacturing.
Again IMHO, I find unnecessary those criticisms made here against those who search (and find) profit in the open-source, not to mention the sterile disputes over who has a higher degree of moral...These are not new (just check this post by Massimo Banzi from Arduino: http://www.massimobanzi.com/2012/11/hall-of-shame-blatant-lies/, or this other one in makezine: http://makezine.com/2012/09/19/is-one-of-our-open-source-heroes-going-closed-source/. In the end of the day, even the fact that some "steal" the open source ideas shouldn't be used as excuse to feel discourage by anyone when the real deal is that nowadays we are enabled to create whatever we feel like without having to ask for permission.

Regarding RepRap.org, of course some improvements can be made, and given that the topic has opened, I would suggest, for example, to enable some kind of "credit control" where people (newcomers like me mostly) can get to know how often another user has been "thanked". This gives (IMO) more accurate information than the amount of posts made or the time of registration, as one can put a lot of useless rubbish in the form of posts, not to mention self-publicity. Also, perhaps looking at how other reference open-source hardware projects (Arduino, LaserSaurus, Opensource Ecology,...) deal with their every-day-new knowledge could serve of inspiration for having a better reprap.org...
From my experience, the way one ends up invariably into reprap.org's forum is by googling the problem one is encountering in a moment of difficulty. Then, slowly, threads lead you to the wiki and once you have learned the jargon you can begin to formulate the questions in the search engines in a more efficient manner.
So, the wiki is actually practical as a means to put ideas in order for the middle-advanced repraper, not so much for the beginner...

That being said, I go back to my printings..
Happy weekend!

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www.poti-poti.org

I agree with this! I'm actively involved in a longboard building forum where users get "Rep power" for making contributions. People with more rep power than them are the only people who can really boost theirs, and it's GREAT for separating out the active, involved, and knowledgeable users. Posting spam or in multiple forums or being a jerk, etc. etc. will get you negative rep and no one will listen to or help you. It works so well.

Reprap: "The reports of my death were an exageration"...

If some of you don't think there is enough innovation in Reprap it seems that could be a good motivator to get out and innovate.

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From the MakeZine article
But it doesn’t appear that being closed source and using patents and licensing will free any company from competitors, but instead will only open them to a different form of competitors. A form of competitor that really, truly is only there for the profit, and doesn’t have the ethics of open and community driven innovation.

Here I guess the article is wrong. Since the time RepRap is recognized as being something serious, not just a fun project, we see these just-for-profit and non-ethic competitors, too. The advantage of being the actual inventor/developer becomes smaller and smaller and I could see it going negative. Negative, like having an advantage from being not the developer. As an example, there are all the RepRappers prefering/recommending/using Arduino clones over the original ones and feeling perfectly fine with it. Accordingly you see more recommendations for clones than for originals.

This is something the community has to deal with. Maybe the situation of PC inventor vs. PC cloners was similar 20 years back, when IBM, the inventor, was driven out of the market. Perhaps we can learn from this.

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ndujar
I would suggest, for example, to enable some kind of "credit control" where people (newcomers like me mostly) can get to know how often another user has been "thanked".

I wouldn't want to have a high credit control. Because then people approach you without even asking in the forum, making you sort of a free private teacher for everyone. Has happened at times already and the result is, you either have to offend people by ignoring/rejecting them or you no longer find time for your own work. Think of 20 private messages with help requests every day, that's quite plausible.

Guess there's no way around a newbie-friendly wiki

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Well, with all due respect, i must completely disagree with both your answers:

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Traumflug
Here I guess the article is wrong. Since the time RepRap is recognized as being something serious, not just a fun project, we see these just-for-profit and non-ethic competitors, too. The advantage of being the actual inventor/developer becomes smaller and smaller and I could see it going negative. Negative, like having an advantage from being not the developer. As an example, there are all the RepRappers prefering/recommending/using Arduino clones over the original ones and feeling perfectly fine with it. Accordingly you see more recommendations for clones than for originals.

While human behavior is based on competition, there is absolutely no way around non-ethic human behavior. And even when competition is replaced with collaboration, one still cannot be totally assured that ethics will rule. In the end, there is something inherent to us as primates that makes us want to impose our criteria over others, to have more credit, more money...However, instead of assuming it with fatality, we can at least enable tools that reduce the amount of power given to some, like for example open-source software or hardware. I think you will agree that the advantage one gets by becoming an open-source inventor/developer is in terms of freedom. Going open-source you don't have to be afraid that a larger "competitor" is not only going to steal and patent your idea, but also sue you and ruin your life, which really has happened before.

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Traumflug
I wouldn't want to have a high credit control. Because then people approach you without even asking in the forum, making you sort of a free private teacher for everyone. Has happened at times already and the result is, you either have to offend people by ignoring/rejecting them or you no longer find time for your own work. Think of 20 private messages with help requests every day, that's quite plausible.

My suggestion of a credit control is meant to give a bit of feedback at the time of reading an answer in the forum. This way one has a way to know how useful an answer is. It actually doesn't have to be linked to any particular user, although as SamS pointed out, it might as well solve many problems.
Regarding those that it creates, I don't think "normal" people might get offended by not getting an private answer. It is understandable that others are busy. And if one is in such a hurry, he/she can always go around bothering others with similar degree of expertise and more willingness to help...Currently there is already a "number-of-posts+years-registered" index of expertise-credit control system which in some cases might be misleading or even be the source of those 20 daily PMs.

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Traumflug

Guess there's no way around a newbie-friendly wiki

Well, I seriously doubt it, but if that is the case really the RepRap project has a serious problem, and other initiatives more willing to accept newcomers will emerge that will render reprap.org obsolete. The growth being experienced in the diy-digital manufacturing is immense, and I don't think any project can afford refusing invaluable human capital just based on formal issues. Regardless of that, I believe RepRap has still many years ahead because it has a strong community full of very smart individuals supporting it, and for sure there are many more coming. It is just a matter of making sure everyone has a way to contribute.

IMO perhaps it could be the task of those who have now more experience (and hence credit), to focus in finding ways to integrate the energy of those who come new. There is already a great amount of work made regarding documentation and helping others to start, not to mention people with a middle degree of knowledge who can actually continue with that mission and are willing to do so.

We are living a very difficult time, but simultaneously extraordinary things are happening...let's enjoy them!

Edit: Please read this as a suggestion, an idea, a proposal...presented with all due respect and admiration for the job already done. I don't personally have any particular expectation to be fulfilled

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 04:17PM by ndujar.

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www.poti-poti.org

I see an expectation to some of the newer members of the community thinking of Reprap as one encompassing, single driven entity. It's not. In fact it's not even 3D printing as a whole. It's a specific type of machine that is designed to be able to replicate as much of itself as possible allowing for materials and manufacturing methods available to the DIY/maker crowd. Those options will be limited until (or if) the machines can print more than plastic. As the sizes and capabilites increase threaded rod and plastic parts are no longer adequate.


This community is only one outpost in a vast universe of Reprap, 3D printing, maker/hacker/tinker and old fashioned DIY. It is not a single destination nor should it be. There is no magic piece of software, ratings system or means to determine what is the best information for YOUR issue/system/community interaction. You are going to have to read some posts and think about what is written in the context in which it was written. That requires effort, patience and reasoning skills. I see some sort of user/poster rating system as a short cut, an inaccurate one at best. The community is what YOU make of it. Not what kind of experience others can make for you.

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ndujar
While human behavior is based on competition, there is absolutely no way around non-ethic human behavior. And even when competition is replaced with collaboration, one still cannot be totally assured that ethics will rule.

Agreement, and fit my view nicely.

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ndujar
I think you will agree that the advantage one gets by becoming an open-source inventor/developer is in terms of freedom. Going open-source you don't have to be afraid that a larger "competitor" is not only going to steal and patent your idea, but also sue you and ruin your life, which really has happened before.

Uhm, no. Being open source protects nothing here. If laws allow to patent something after having it public, you can patent open sourced designs, too. If they don't allow this, like in europe, having a prototype is sufficient, no open source neccessary.

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ndujar
My suggestion of a credit control is meant to give a bit of feedback at the time of reading an answer in the forum. This way one has a way to know how useful an answer is. It actually doesn't have to be linked to any particular user, although as SamS pointed out, it might as well solve many problems.

So you want to credit postings, not users. Similar to how stackoverflow.com does? Sounds different from what I initially understood.

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ndujar

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Traumflug
Guess there's no way around a newbie-friendly wiki

Well, I seriously doubt it, but if that is the case really the RepRap project has a serious problem, and other initiatives more willing to accept newcomers will emerge that will render reprap.org obsolete. The growth being experienced in the diy-digital manufacturing is immense, and I don't think any project can afford refusing invaluable human capital just based on formal issues.

Basing knowledge on experts simply isn't future-proof. If you answer questions directly, especially with "click here", "type this" type answers, newbies don't learn anything and stay dumb. Experts, however, eventually go away after giving some hundred to thousand answers. Many are gone already, for myself I developed sort of an allergy against newbies.

From time to time I write into the wiki, however. There I can not only answer issues, but also explain them. Even better, sometimes I find ways to make issues simply go away by improving software. The latter is the best, of course.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY