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RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?

Posted by SebastienBailard 
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SebastienBailard
RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 01:21AM
I was wondering, who here is interested in working on a RepRap Without Borders Handheld Laser Scanner to digitalize parts of the body, intra oral for dentistry, etc.?

This might also be useful for general laser scanning of random things like a vase, a sleeping cat, your newborn daughter's hand, etc.

Someone mentioned a need for this for rural dentistry in South Africa in a RP mailing list I subscribe to.

A few questions:

Q: Do people here want to RepRap handheld scanners? (for whatever application, you don't have to be doctors.)

Q: Do people want to work on a group design?

Q: Can we RepRap part of these?

Q: How cheap?

Q: How much of Splinescan can we use?

Q: Should we form a working party and make these things?

Q: What questions do we still need ask?

Q: Is this a good RepRap Without Borders project?


In short, can we do this RepRap style, who's in, and how do we do it? smiling bouncing smiley
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VDX
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 03:07AM
Hi Sebastien,

... i'm very interested in a small high-density laserscanner - be it handheld or mounted on a base ...

The David-project is a good thing, but normal laser-liners are to coarse for real mini-HighRez-scanners, so i was thinking of a shadow-line scanner instead of a leaser-line (David is capable of both methods too).

Another interesting approach would be calculating the 3D-surface from two stereo-images (called fotogrammetrie or stereometrie) captured with a standard webcam and a macro-objective - i have a really good design for micro-photograpy ... see here for some samples a friend made with my optics grinning smiley

Viktor
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SebastienBailard
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 04:27AM
It is doable.

Here are links of near-release commercial products:
[www.densys3d.com]
[www.dpi-3d.com]

via
[rapid.lpt.fi]
I'd suggest we look at
[rapid.lpt.fi]


Here's a bit of the conversation, (three emails, oldest at bottom):
[rapid.lpt.fi]

Hi Jason;

There are dental scanners that can
be used to scan tooth impressions;
they typically are coupled with
specialized CNC mills that use the
data collected to mill out crowns
which can be installed as soon as
they are cut, which saves a lot of
time and cuts out the whole
lost-wax process that's
traditionally used for making them
(typically in gold with porcelain
enamel optional).

But these scanners work outside the
mouth, on plaster impressions that
can be scanned from multiple
angles, which don't move
unexpectedly while the scanning is
happening. These are probably
cost-effective, or nobody would
bother with them, but that's not
the same thing as "low cost". There
are some intra-oral scanners being
developed, but they don't seem to
be on the market quite yet. Here
are some links:

[www.densys3d.com]
[www.dpi-3d.com]

There are photogrammetric systems
for transforming a series of 2d
images into 3d models, but they
tend to work best on simple
geometric forms, like buildings,
and less well on complicated
organic things like faces (or
teeth) that need to be extremely
accurate. Considering the
restrictive conditions inside
someone's mouth, and the difficulty
of reconstructing good 3d models
from 2d photos, it's hard to
imagine that the system you're
envisioning would work well enough
to compete with the traditional
process of molding and sculpting
tooth crowns, where an error of
.1mm is unacceptable. But I don't
want to discourage you in your
quest - do let us know if you find
a system that meets your criteria.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

From: Jason Laing
Date: Thu Jan 21 2010 - 15:21:14 EET

Hi Sebastien

I aggree with you, yes we would definatley want to make it free as the rural
guys mentioned by you were are trying to give a service to the low income
streams to achieve cost effective ways of treatments and the scanning type
system opens doors in a number areas of medial applications. I would love to
get more involved with the "Reprap without boarders" so let me know how I
can please.

Essentially we want to make a digital camera become the scanner for inner
oral and external applications. Im not sure what is out there so I thought I
would pick some brains to see what I am missing.

If you could help me with this that would be great!!!

Thanks

Jason

-----Original Message-----
Quote

From: Sebastien Bailard [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:23 AM
To: Jason Laing
Subject: Re: [rp-ml] RE: Image to 3D

There are some very clever people in the RepRap forum. Please try asking
there as well:
[dev.forums.reprap.org]

This is exactly the sort of project I want to encourage the RepRap community
to work on, and I will make sure to make a space for you and folk to work on
this.

I think you're looking for object reconstruction from photograph software.
Is this correct? Or do you want software and hardware, with camera mounts
and a laser?

Because there _are_ chunks of object reconstruction software out there that
will do the job, but they are a bunch of chunks created by academics and
hobbyists. They are free (GPL), but I think you'll need some programmers
and designers to hack something that works well, so that users don't need to
think hard, they just press a button and they have a scan.

Tinkering with software and hardware to make that happen takes time and
energy, but the people in my forum have time and energy to spend on an
interesting technical problem that helps people. Many are programmers,
engineers, and designers, and they like this kind of stuff. And I have been
trying to find a good project like yours for "RepRap Without Borders".

The one thing I ask is that the software/plans be released freely (GPL) so
that folk in other rural areas can make use of them. And it would probably
be necessary, because that's the rules we agree to follow when we use those
precoded "chunks" of free (GPL) software, that we give back to the commons
we got them from.

I realize if you're trying to heavily monetize this project that might be a
big thing to ask, but I think you're focusing on the needs of your patients,
and that this caveat wouldn't cause any problems, i.e. cost effective would
be free, and free for everyone is good.

RepRap is about making the world a better place, and we're pretty big on
cost-effective, so there is a good chance I can cheerlead a design team into
existence.

Regards,
-Sebastien Bailard
RepRap.org - self-reproducing 3D printer project.


The original query that started it all: [rapid.lpt.fi]:

Quote

[rp-ml] RE: Image to 3D
Date: Thursday 03:30:50 am
From: "Jason Laing"
To: rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi

Hi

I have noticed quiet a few discussions going on with regards to 3D scanning,
I am working on a project at the moment to try and create a low cost scanner
from photographs from a basic camera. Does anyone know of any software that
can assist me with taking images and some how turning it into a 3D image?
This project is for the dental industry and we are looking to create a
platform for our rural areas so even if anyone knows of scanners that are
really cost effective that I can use inside the mouth?

Thanks

Jason Laing

Director
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SebastienBailard
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 04:43AM
So it seems to be the perfect RWB project.

We've got compassionate reasons to do it: end users in .za who are rural and need dental scans, maybe prosthetic and other scans but I don't know user need right now.

We've got good RepRap reasons to do it: "Dude, hand scanner!" - Me


I don't know the tech details of splinescan as well as I'd like
[www.splinescan.co.uk]
The developer Andrew Lewis is near a major release point.


We'd need to develop going easy to hard, so first would be a basic hand scanner the size of a brick, with crud ui, etc, that wouldn't fit in the mouth. Aka "Basic Brick"

Then, once we have that as a testbed, we figure out the complicated optical stuff, and if we need to commission lenses, we do so, if we have to design an aluminum lens holder to be commercial-CNCed, we do so.


"Basic Brick"

But for a hand scanner, could it be as simple as a camera+laser module, with a good inclinometer and accelerometer to give position? And could we do that with splinescan?

I'll ping Andrew Lewis of splinecan and ask him, but he may be busy.
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VDX
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 05:07AM
Hi Sebastien,

... sounds good grinning smiley - so i can support you with good optics with higher DOF than comercial systems ... but are searching free software for photogrammetry too ...

Viktor
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Triffid_Hunter
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 05:27AM
even better than stereoscopy is monoslam: [youtube.com]
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VDX
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 05:41AM
... thank you for the link smileys with beer

I've downloaded the sources and will try to bring it to run - PTAM on windows and maybe PTAMM in a VirtualBox-Linux confused smiley

Viktor
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BodgeIt
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 01:08PM
Hi Sebastien,

I am interested yes!

A very interesting link Triffid hunter. thank you.

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SebastienBailard
Re: RWB Hand Held Laser Digitalizer for Medical Use - Working Group?
January 25, 2010 01:58PM
BodgeIt, you should probably start by looking at

[www.splinescan.co.uk]

There should be a good writeup in the most recent edition of Make, as well. I'll see if I can find a pdf this afternoon evening.


Open questions:
What is the hardware like?

Will "accelerometer, inclinometer, camera, and laser/optics module" work?

Will splinescan do this?


Other people should add their own, and edit this
[objects.reprap.org]
if they have time.
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