A call for help/ideas to develop the Heated Room

Following the idea of the Heated Bed add on to RepRap, I would like to start discussing a possible heated room - the advantages, problems and possible implementations.

Why a Heated Room?
Because printing on heated room (may*) makes final pieces stronger! Also (may*) help avoiding warping and (may*) make possible to print using other plastics.

*NopHead wrote about hot bed: (...) This is only 25% but the object feels incredibly strong. I get the feeling the hot bed makes things stronger.
Also commercial 3D printers have heated room... see here videos of a looking inside on them.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2010 10:18PM by casainho.

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I am interested in a heated bed but surely the higher the object the less of
an effect it has. Surely a "green house" and a variable temperature controlled heat gun (I am thinking of the thing from a hardware store used to remove paint) is the way to go? Crank up the whole reprap (not the electronics ) to 70C

heat gun example at $48
[www.amazon.com]

regards

Stephen

I think a tent made from some thermally insulating material like blanket would cause your heated bed to warm up the whole chamber.. harder to watch the machine working though, which is a bit of a bummer

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Wooden Mendel
Teacup Firmware

I think the only way to have a heated chamber on a self replicating machine is the roasting bag idea that Adrian tried and blogged. Otherwise the extruder has to be made from high temperature materials and so cannot make itself. Its not very convenient using a bag though.

So far I have not found a need for one, the top of objects are always flat anyway, even without a heated bed. With one, some heat is conducted upwards so should be better if anything.

I will try making a tiny jet of warm air though to blow on the area being extruded to make the plastic freeze faster without cooling it below bed temperature. That should restore the void spanning ability I seem to have lost. I have no idea how much power it will need, but should be a lot less than the 500W or so a hair dryer needs.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I dont see a point for heated room either. But we could use some kind of hat around the nozzle to prevent the heat going further up.

Its not exactly a heated room because it has no walls;-) and open, but I think it would create more uniform heat.

Also the heated bed looks awesome and enough.

Otherwise the
> extruder has to be made from high temperature
> materials and so cannot make itself.

Since I remember, I saw a blog message showing plastic filament being push over a long tube of PTFE. The motor drive were very far from brass barrel.

If we put on an a metal box the X, Y and Z axis and the brass barrel, then plastic filament can be feed from outside at user room temperature, with actual Mendel extruder system. Am I wrong?


> So far I have not found a need for one

This is important for now on this discussion! Why make a heated room? I don't know but I guess pieces will be stronger (better adhesion between ALL layers) and help on no warping.

But maybe there are other important reasons... because the commercial printers are using the heated bed AND room.

Does anyone knows why the use of heated room on commercial printers? (I guess that they wouldn't build the heated room for nothing).


> I will try making a tiny jet of warm air though to
> blow on the area being extruded to make the
> plastic freeze faster without cooling it below bed
> temperature.

I think prusjar user is doing that now, a fan that takes air near the heated bed. You can reach him on IRC channel.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

casainho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Otherwise the
> > extruder has to be made from high temperature
> > materials and so cannot make itself.
>
> Since I remember, I saw a blog message showing
> plastic filament being push over a long tube of
> PTFE. The motor drive were very far from brass
> barrel.
>
> If we put on an a metal box the X, Y and Z axis
> and the brass barrel, then plastic filament can be
> feed from outside at user room temperature, with
> actual Mendel extruder system. Am I wrong?

Yes but everything inside the box would have to be metal, like a commercial machine, so you reduce the self replication to almost nothing.

Nothing to stop you making a metal FDM machine, but its not RepRap until RepRap can make high temperature materials such as metal.

>
>
> > So far I have not found a need for one
>
> This is important for now on this discussion! Why
> make a heated room? I don't know but I guess
> pieces will be stronger (better adhesion between
> ALL layers) and help on no warping.

My pieces are already very strong and have no warping at all. I can't see how it could be any better. Perhaps very big objects would need it but they take too long to interest me at the moment. Plus I have made large objects with no heated bed and it was only the bottom that warped. I can always switch to PLA which has far less warping to start with if I run into trouble with big parts.


>
> But maybe there are other important reasons...
> because the commercial printers are using the
> heated bed AND room.
>
> Does anyone knows why the use of heated room on
> commercial printers? (I guess that they wouldn't
> build the heated room for nothing).

It is to combat warping but they don't use PLA. Plus they probably maintain close tolerances on large objects. Nice to have but generally the larger something is the less accurate it needs to be.

The best way to build, if money is not important, is undoubtedly with a heated chamber, but RepRap is all about doing on the cheap and self replication. This is why I doubt you will see a heated bed in the official design.

>
>
> > I will try making a tiny jet of warm air though
> to
> > blow on the area being extruded to make the
> > plastic freeze faster without cooling it below
> bed
> > temperature.
>
> I think prusjar user is doing that now, a fan that
> takes air near the heated bed. You can reach him
> on IRC channel.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

nophead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> casainho Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Otherwise the
> > > extruder has to be made from high temperature
> > > materials and so cannot make itself.
> >
> > Since I remember, I saw a blog message showing
> > plastic filament being push over a long tube of
> > PTFE. The motor drive were very far from brass
> > barrel.
> >
> > If we put on an a metal box the X, Y and Z axis
> > and the brass barrel, then plastic filament can
> be
> > feed from outside at user room temperature,
> with
> > actual Mendel extruder system. Am I wrong?
>
> Yes but everything inside the box would have to be
> metal, like a commercial machine, so you reduce
> the self replication to almost nothing.

Yes, true. I didn't remember that.


> Nothing to stop you making a metal FDM machine,
> but its not RepRap until RepRap can make high
> temperature materials such as metal.

Ok.


> > > So far I have not found a need for one
> >
> > This is important for now on this discussion!
> Why
> > make a heated room? I don't know but I guess
> > pieces will be stronger (better adhesion
> between
> > ALL layers) and help on no warping.
>
> My pieces are already very strong and have no
> warping at all. I can't see how it could be any
> better. Perhaps very big objects would need it but
> they take too long to interest me at the moment.
> Plus I have made large objects with no heated bed
> and it was only the bottom that warped. I can
> always switch to PLA which has far less warping to
> start with if I run into trouble with big parts.

Good to know.


> > But maybe there are other important reasons...
> > because the commercial printers are using the
> > heated bed AND room.
> >
> > Does anyone knows why the use of heated room on
> > commercial printers? (I guess that they
> wouldn't
> > build the heated room for nothing).
>
> It is to combat warping but they don't use PLA.
> Plus they probably maintain close tolerances on
> large objects. Nice to have but generally the
> larger something is the less accurate it needs to
> be.

Ok.


> The best way to build, if money is not important,
> is undoubtedly with a heated chamber, but RepRap
> is all about doing on the cheap and self
> replication. This is why I doubt you will see a
> heated bed in the official design.

Ok. My ideas are now more clear about this subject.

I thought that this could be a good work for improving RepRap printers. I will follow the forum and blogs to know in what others works are people thinking to improve :-)

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

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I think by putting clear perspex around the sides of Mendel with an extractor fan to remove the fumes could be a neat way to improve things generally.

As mentioned previously the internal temprature can not be too high else the printer will stat bending itself out of shape.
I would think controlling the internal ambient temprature would improve the general running of a RepRap. It would also save some power & time heating things up.
Maybe maintaining an internal ambient temprature of 50-60C could be beneficially. It would be controlled by the extractor fan's that can also remove any fumes to some thing like a tumble dryer pipe to a nearby window.

The internal temprature would be maintained only by cooling maybe a PID controller for the extractor fan?

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Bodge It [reprap.org]
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> I would think controlling the internal ambient
> temprature would improve the general running of a
> RepRap. It would also save some power & time
> heating things up.

Or we believe on NopHead words or we can go try and find about it...

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I'm only talking about maintaining slightly higher ambient temprature not heating the space to a temprature tha would affect the printed parts of Mendel.

May be 60C is too high.. from my reading 60C would not affect the stability of the printed parts that Mendel is made of, it would mean that printing would not be so affected by local ambient temprature giving it less chance of extruder cooling due to a draft or other local environment temprature changes.

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Bodge It [reprap.org]
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BIQ Sanguinololu SD LCD board	BIQ Stepcon	BIQ Opto Endstop
BIQ Heater Block PCB	BIQ Extruder Peek clamp replacement	BIQ Huxley Seedling
BIQ Sanguinololu mounting	BIQ standalone Sanguinololu or Ramps mounting	Print It Stick It Cut it

My rep strap: [repstrapbertha.blogspot.com]

Buy the bits from B&Q pipestrap [diyrepstrap.blogspot.com]
How to Build a Darwin without any Rep Rap Parts [repstrapdarwin.blogspot.com]
Web Site [www.takeaway3dtech.com]

I'm only talking about maintaining slightly higher ambient temprature not heating the space to a temprature that would affect the printed parts of Mendel.

May be 60C is too high.. from my reading 60C would not affect the stability of the printed parts that Mendel is made of, it would mean that printing would not be so affected by local ambient temprature giving it less chance of extruder cooling due to a draft or other local environment temprature changes.

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Bodge It [reprap.org]
=======================================

---

BIQ Sanguinololu SD LCD board	BIQ Stepcon	BIQ Opto Endstop
BIQ Heater Block PCB	BIQ Extruder Peek clamp replacement	BIQ Huxley Seedling
BIQ Sanguinololu mounting	BIQ standalone Sanguinololu or Ramps mounting	Print It Stick It Cut it

My rep strap: [repstrapbertha.blogspot.com]

Buy the bits from B&Q pipestrap [diyrepstrap.blogspot.com]
How to Build a Darwin without any Rep Rap Parts [repstrapdarwin.blogspot.com]
Web Site [www.takeaway3dtech.com]

You might get away with 60C for an ABS machine, not PLA though as that will go soft at 50C.

The motors will be a problem even then. Say the motor gets to 40C, that is ambient plus 20 so in a chamber heated to 60 it will get to 80C, pretty close to where ABS goes soft. We could extrude the motor mounts from HDPE to get round that one but then the oven would not be hot enough cure HDPE warping.

Having an enclosure would be good for fume extraction though and may give some small benefit to warping even if it was at a lower temperature.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Good point only having my motors mounted on MDF.. I had forgoten about the steppers as they do get quite hot.

In that case enclosing the Frame from drafts with the Extraction fans triggered at say 30-40C, would still save power reduce switching noise and maintain an internal temprature stability which should still provide a more stable printing environment.

Nophead have you ever had any of your stepper mounts go soft on your extruders having seen my steppers hit 70C before now.

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Bodge It [reprap.org]
=======================================

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BIQ Sanguinololu SD LCD board	BIQ Stepcon	BIQ Opto Endstop
BIQ Heater Block PCB	BIQ Extruder Peek clamp replacement	BIQ Huxley Seedling
BIQ Sanguinololu mounting	BIQ standalone Sanguinololu or Ramps mounting	Print It Stick It Cut it

My rep strap: [repstrapbertha.blogspot.com]

Buy the bits from B&Q pipestrap [diyrepstrap.blogspot.com]
How to Build a Darwin without any Rep Rap Parts [repstrapdarwin.blogspot.com]
Web Site [www.takeaway3dtech.com]

The NEMA17 on my extruder runs at 43C, which is a bit close to the point PLA goes soft, but it seems OK so far. It runs hotter now that it is above a heated bed.

The motor mounts on my Darwin and Mendel are ABS so good for 80-90C. I run the Darwin motors at 1/3 power so they also only get to about 40C.

Some steppers can get to 80-100C if run at their max rating with no heatsinking. It is always a good idea to run them below spec when mounted on plastic. The full rating is with 2 coils on 100%, which never happens with microstepping drive, so I am actually under running the motors quite a lot.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Hi

BodgeIt () said
Good point only having my motors mounted on MDF.. I had forgoten about the steppers as they do get quite hot.

My reply
My steppers motors used to get very very hot. i.e. burn your hand hot. At one point I even had a heat sink and fan on them. Then I put an aluminum heat sink from an AMD Duron CPU and a small CPU fan on the stepper driver board itself and the steppers motors now run cool to the touch. No idea why. I can only assume that as the temperature of the stepper board increases so must it's output. Otherwise why would my stepper motor run so cool now.

regards

Stephen

P.s. use the 1.2 stepper boards

Hi Steve ~ I also have Big heat sinks with a big fan on my 1.2 stepper boards.




The reason the chips need heat sinks on the 1.2 boards is that they are Transistor based thus have a higher voltage drop across them hence more power to dissipate.

The reason your steppers are now not getting hos could be that you are now using the motor enable pin on the stepper boards. Hence the Steppers are now not turned on all the time.

The duty cycle on the extruder is very high i.e. its on more than its off, it will also be running not far from its maximum drive current to get the best torque. The 3 axis steppers do not need to run on full torque/current as they are only moving the build tray and extruder

As Both Nophead and I are now using the new driver chips using FETs instead of transistors there is very little power lost in the FET drivers almost all of the drive power is available to the stepper. Only 50C-60C is finger burn hot for most people.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2010 10:22PM by BodgeIt.

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Bodge It [reprap.org]
=======================================

---

BIQ Sanguinololu SD LCD board	BIQ Stepcon	BIQ Opto Endstop
BIQ Heater Block PCB	BIQ Extruder Peek clamp replacement	BIQ Huxley Seedling
BIQ Sanguinololu mounting	BIQ standalone Sanguinololu or Ramps mounting	Print It Stick It Cut it

My rep strap: [repstrapbertha.blogspot.com]

Buy the bits from B&Q pipestrap [diyrepstrap.blogspot.com]
How to Build a Darwin without any Rep Rap Parts [repstrapdarwin.blogspot.com]
Web Site [www.takeaway3dtech.com]

BodgeIt () said
The reason your steppers are now not getting hos could be that you are now using the motor enable pin on the stepper boards. Hence the Steppers are now not turned on all the time.

My response
All my motors were running hot. I could not touch any of them for very long.
I put two large heat sink on the X and Y and a small one on the Z.
(basically a computer CPU heat sink cut into three with the smallest bit going to the Z). They all had CPU fans. I was amazed at the difference. I had assumed that
the stepper motor heat and stepper driver heat problems were separate issues.

X and Y started to run cool. Very cool. As in the metal felt cold. i.e. absorbed my fingers heat. Z was cool for a time but heated up even though it was not moving often.

Since I had no more computers to scrap and therefore no source of
heat sinks I decided to investigate disabling the steppers after a
5 second delay of doing nothing on the reprap. This worked extremely well.
But on the long jobs the Z still got hot.

I have recently been given a new PC to scrap with a rather large heats sink.
Due to a fan failure I have replaced the tiny CPU fan with a fan with a big PC fan. (looks like the same one you have in your picture but just for the Z stepper alone.)

I am hoping that the Z motor will run as coolly as the X and Y with this latest upgrade. I hope to be able to prove this by the weekend.

Nothing to stop you making a metal FDM machine, but its not RepRap until RepRap can make high temperature materials such as metal.

If it's up on the RepRap wiki, it's RepRap, by definition. If it's not on the RepRap wiki, that's a regrettable historical accident to be corrected by us library folk when we get around to it.

Also, if we have to, we can do and document lost-wax casting of RepRapped parts, if that's what the project takes.

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It is to combat warping but they don't use PLA. Plus they probably maintain close tolerances on large objects. Nice to have but generally the larger something is the less accurate it needs to be.

I'd quibble with that - there's always someone out there who needs close tolerance on something. It could be a guy making ... sandcast molds for rack-and-pinion or something, or just super super long rack and pinion.

It's definitely a good thing to work on.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

NopHead went ahead and did build a Heated Room: Wooden overcoat

I am finishing my Mendel, for sure I will try to make the same, I think is much better of to use this chamber + heated bed

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2010 09:08AM by casainho.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

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Hi

I built a heated room too. Mainly because it's winter here and with the room temperature being below 20C results in god awful prints in ABS.

Bringing the temperature up to 35C - 50C helped considerably with warping. The parts just look better.

I repraped most parts for the frame. If anyone is intersted I can upload Pictures and STL object files.

regards

Stephen George

I reprapped most parts for the frame. If anyone is interested I can upload Pictures and STL object files.

Please do. [reprap.org] is probably the best place.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

stephen george Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi
>
> I built a heated room too. Mainly because it's
> winter here and with the room temperature being
> below 20C results in god awful prints in ABS.
>
> Bringing the temperature up to 35C - 50C helped
> considerably with warping. The parts just look
> better.
>
> I repraped most parts for the frame. If anyone is
> intersted I can upload Pictures and STL object
> files.

Please document it, with pictures also, and tell us about your experience, on the wiki page: Mendel_heated_room

Thanks ;-)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2010 06:48PM by casainho.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

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The term "heated room" kinda confused me until I found that we are talking about an "enclosure" for the RepRap.

I wrote up a draft a few days ago for what I call the Poor mans enclosure. Think Bodge It and I are working or thinking along the same lines. I'll try and clean up the draft and post it so all might run with it.

I had forgoten about the steppers as they do get quite hot. This is something i was thinking about sometime ago. How about you make a small fan and install it on the stepper shaft (not used, other side) that way U cool the stepper and use the heat. It's free

[probersideas.blogspot.com]

Hi

Here are the details of my reprap green house. (which doubles as a real green house for seedlings)



Picture 1 is a picture of the prototype to test my build idea.It shows a cube made out of 16mm round aluminium tube with reprap built parts holding the structure together. The two bits of plastic to the side are the reprap built parts. They fit together to form a three node joint.

Note they do not need to be glued together as the aluminium holds them together. The ends are tapered slightly to allow the tubes to be put in easily.

Note2: you can put the parts together in different configurations to build different frames ie put two 3 notes together to get a 4 node. Put two 2 nodes together to get a two node and of course put a two node and a three node together to get a three node.



Picture 2 is a close up of two clamps and a hinge. The clamps clip the "glass"/ clear plastic to the frame.



Picture 3 is a picture of the full mock up. The clear plastic is held to the structure by reprap parts which snap to the aluminium tubes. The final idea is to have a hinge on the back of the structure so that the whole frame can be lifted with a handle.

If anyone is interested in building a similar green house or if someone wants to build a green house for plants. I will upload the stl files and openscad configuration files along with the rest of the specs.

regards

Stephen

P.s. Both the tubing and clear plastic came from my local hardware store.

Aluminum tube is pretty expensive. You could use steel electrical conduit. It is heavier but still pretty light. Comes in 10 foot lengths for only a couple of dollars.

Does the thin plastic keep enough of the warmth in your green house?

Hi

Arvin said
> Aluminium tube is pretty expensive.
I can get 3 Metres of Aluminium tube for $A16 retail. It's easy to cut and drill but I see no problems with using Steel if it is cheap. Steel is probably a better material in the long run as I suspect it is more rigid.

Arvin said
>Does the thin plastic keep enough of the warmth in your green house?
Yes. It works by trapping the hot air (and fumes) in rather than being an insulator itself.
My reprap heater (read hair dryer) brings the temperature up to 35C very quickly and soon hits 50C so I usually set it to half power.

Regards

Stephen

$16 compared to the price of just the bolts is minor but 1/2"x10' conduit is in the $2< price <$3 range and is stronger than aluminum in almost any diameter though strength to hold basically plastic rap is immaterial.

The price difference will buy your lunch at McDonalds!

What's about these: [www.worldofproduct.de] ?

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Nophead,
I noticed from your blog page (still haven't figured out how to add a comment there) that you are having trouble with too much heat being retained. Try adding insulation under the heated bead to reduce heat loss in that direction. Even cotton batting will help, as the flash point of cotton is over 220C.

This looks to be a major improvement, so I suspect you will want to make it permanent. Try moving the electronics boards and power supply to the outside back of the enclosure. That way, they will not suffer from the heat, and they generate no ill fumes. To cool the extruder stepper motor, it sounds like you are currently using enclosure (warm) air to cool it. Try adding one more hole to the side of the enclosure and put the fan there, with a flex tube to carry the cool air to the stepper motor on the extruder. That should help keep it cool enough to allow a much higher internal temperature, and more uniform ABS printing.

Mike