RepRap future and leader (the need for)

Hello :-)

I am really new to RepRap, but I think that RepRap have a few problems right now that compromises his existence. RepRap need to continue evolution to survive over the times.

RepRap Mendel is stable, but there are a lot of other things to improve this 3D printer and even continue with the same philosophy.

I see the support material as the first thing to do next, to put our energies on! Mendel would be then near of commercial ones with support material.

Other things would be the Heated Bed - that is already developed but there is need to "RepRap core" approve it and ask to small companies like Makerbot to produce and sell it (or parts for it).

I am sure there are many more things where Mendel can be improved/evolution... but I guess that a RepRap leader/core should make a poll and ask users/hackers, or identify, what are the priorities. Then I would write that priorities on wiki, on Mendel pages and hope that hackers focus on that

Also RepRap leader/core should go looking for money, and put that money on that priorities! I think there is need money and consensus on RepRap!

As for consensus, look what NopHead wrote to a question made on this forum, about electronics:
Question: I wish we would get others in this discussion like Nophead, Forrest, Vic..

NopHead answer: I stopped discussing electronic architecture a long time ago. There is no consensus so I simply do my own thing and stopped wasting time trying to convince anybody else.

And as for money, we can look at Makerbot, which being selling their products they can have money to invest on development (but looks like they don't have free time).
If we look at projects like Wikipedia that don't sells services/products but instead GIVE them for users, we can see that they ask for donations from users... and that they still have other bigger donaters likes companies. Why not do the same? ask for users donate and ask for companies like Makerbot donate? -- but wait, RepRap donation page is here.
I think that users should know very well in what RepRap is focused (Roadmap ??), so they can trust their donations.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2010 09:41AM by casainho.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

I am sure there are many more things where Mendel can be improved/evolution... but I guess that a RepRap leader/core should make a poll and ask users/hackers, or identify, what are the priorities. Then I would write that priorities on wiki, on Mendel pages and hope that hackers focus on that.

"Poll" sounds good in principle, but may be bad in practice, in as much as the various working groups and solitary research-type RepRap user-developers are very very busy working on their own sub-projects because they think that sub-project has merit. And they may not be interested in a poll to tell them what to think. Example: The Forth-based RepRap Working Party.

I do think it is important for Adrian and the rest of the Mendel team to specify on a wiki page where they're going and where they want help. While carefully specifying that they encourage other people in the RepRap community to add their input to the page, if the suggestion is a new wiki page "Thing I want to work on" a bit more than "Thing I want other people to work on".

I agree we could do a better job of bringing in the community and we could do a better job of coordinating it.

I think Adrian may think that the community is self-coordinating. Unless I'm community coordinator ... ?

Other things would be the Heated Bed - that is already developed but there is need to "RepRap core" approve it and ask to small companies like Makerbot to produce and sell it (or parts for it).

I think I approve it. But you're one of the project leads for the Wiki-based Heated Bed Working Party. Is it ready yet? Do you approve it?

Makerbot may not need to be asked to sell things. They do a decent job already.

Also RepRap leader/core should go looking for money, and put that money on that priorities! I think there is need money and consensus on RepRap!

I agree about money. But we need to wait 3-6 months after the Gada Prize announcement so that a Request-for-funds doesn't interfere with the Gada Prize, or vice-versa. Also, we may just start a kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/ for the RepRap laser cutter working party. {Working party = Viktor, me, ...?}

I think it would be good to have a Mendel Roadmap. I'll ping Adrian.
We've got this, but this is more "where we are" then "where we are going".
[objects.reprap.org]

This is the current working RepRap Roadmap/Snapshot:
[objects.reprap.org]

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

While I have become more active in the last few weeks [Since I am working on code and hardware, not to mention between paid jobs] I have been reading these forums for over a year.

When I first joined, There was focus on the Reprap research foundation, which could do as you suggest. Take donations, pool resourced to make boards and part kits available.

When the Darwin project achieved replication a few month after I started reading these pages, I noticed things hit critical mass, soon there were dozens of blogs. I chose to follow nopheads as this matched my own CNC system the best. Nophead has that rare gift for explanation. I doubt that he would consider himself a leader.

While there is nothing to fault, with Zack moving over from the RRRF to makerbot, I think this has left a hole with the core team, especially the documentation. Zack seems to have the organizational ability to get things done, an even more rare gift.

If anything, Zack's departure has left a void. At least as far as getting kit hardware and revised boards. My experience, with my own attempt to sell kits, is that most customers want a polished boxed and ready system. Zack seems to have seen this and made the best of it.

With the project achieving critical mass the genie is out of the bottle, Anyone wanting to sell parts or electronics will be swamped with orders. I saw this happen in the early days of computer retail, back in the early 1980s. As one of my bosses said, "in a hundred mile an hour wind even turkeys fly."

The basics of the additive build processes are now fully explained. If these pages were to go away tomorrow, the projects would still continue.

While there is a desire for a parent/leader to punish us when we are bad and reward us when good. This attitude, may finally meet with some resistance as more people learn how to empower themselves. More likely a new parent will arise as the children grow up.
-julie

> "Poll" sounds good in principle, but may be bad in
> practice, in as much as the various working groups
> and solitary research-type RepRap user-developers
> are very very busy working on their own
> sub-projects because they think that sub-project
> has merit. And they may not be interested in a
> poll to tell them what to think. Example: The
> Forth-based RepRap Working Party.

Maybe discuss first...


> I do think it is important for Adrian and the rest
> of the Mendel team to specify on a wiki page where
> they're going and where they want help. While
> carefully specifying that they encourage other
> people in the RepRap community to add their input
> to the page, if the suggestion is a new wiki page
> "Thing I want to work on" a bit more than "Thing I
> want other people to work on".

Hmmm, I think a leader or a core should think in what is best to work on for all the benefit of project/philosophy/community. I think users/hackers will then follow and unite to archive common goals - the ones identified first as needed. Maybe like the examples I wrote, the Heated Bed, Support Material, etc.


> I agree we could do a better job of bringing in
> the community and we could do a better job of
> coordinating it.

I think there is just need for coordination. Community is here thanks to the RepRap symbioses.


> Other things would be the Heated Bed - that is
> already developed but there is need to "RepRap
> core" approve it and ask to small companies like
> Makerbot to produce and sell it (or parts for it).
>
> I think I approve it. But you're one of the
> project leads for the Wiki-based Heated Bed
> Working Party. Is it ready yet? Do you approve
> it?

I think is ready, looking at results NopHead, me and others got, using the same materials.
Before I approve the electronic schematics, I need to buy the components and prototype - I can do that, no need for money. But I can't find a good flat aluminium sheet, with all holes ready for resistors. - for sure I could buy that, BUT would be very expensive.
I think that a company should build and sell at least the mechanical parts, just like the ones of extruder -- task for a leader, go to talk with a company.


> Makerbot may not need to be asked to sell things.
> They do a decent job already.

No, I don't think so. Their solution for heated bed is ugly and I am almost sure is bad.


> Also RepRap leader/core should go looking for
> money, and put that money on that priorities! I
> think there is need money and consensus on RepRap!
>
>
> I agree about money. But we need to wait 3-6
> months after the Gada Prize announcement so that a
> Request-for-funds doesn't interfere with the Gada
> Prize, or vice-versa. Also, we may just start a
> kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/ for the
> RepRap laser cutter working party. {Working party
> = Viktor, me, ...?}
>
> I think it would be good to have a Mendel Roadmap.
> I'll ping Adrian.
> We've got this, but this is more "where we are"
> then "where we are going".
> [objects.reprap.org]
> elopment
>
> This is the current working RepRap
> Roadmap/Snapshot:
> [objects.reprap.org]
> pments

Let's see what will happen.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

Bureaucracy is the stultifying reactionary evolution of any social population. Its advocates believe that their own activities are the real purpose of any endeavour, that consensus can be dictated, and that in a democracy, their ideological despotism is justified, because they serve the community by leading it.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2010 03:46AM by murd.

murd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bureaucracy is the stultifying reactionary
> evolution of any social population. Its advocates
> believe that their own activities are the real
> purpose of any endeavour, that consensus can be
> dictated, and that in a democracy, their
> ideological despotism is justified, because they
> serve the community by leading it.

So, anyone knows what would be best to do to avoid what NopHead is doing and instead try to get most of energies together?

NopHead answer: I stopped discussing electronic architecture a long time ago. There is no consensus so I simply do my own thing and stopped wasting time trying to convince anybody else.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

... it's not only nophead going 'sidepaths'

Like him, Forrest and me there are some other guys working with different setups, tools and ideas as they have other issues than the commom reprapper.

My persomal position is mostly defined by the need for higher accuracies, different materials than plastic and some developments with noncartesian mechanics or assembling issues ...

This would be really interesting for others sometimes too, but as the common reprapper goes the paths predefined by the initial setup and 'core-development', i'm happy fiddling around 'in the shadows' ><

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

I don't think that's quite what I wrote. But what the hey... Now that consensus has been achieved, when's the ticker tape parade?

I would like to comment on "mainstream" vs "contrarian" development.
This seems to affect the area of electronics development most, IMHO. I would ask the influential/core members of the development team to please take cognisance of the fact that not everyone has a choice regarding when to reject mainstream electronic-development. From my perspective, for instance, being from a mostly third-world country, it is not always feasible to stray too far away off the "beaten track" ito electronics development. I have, for a while, investigated the possibility of buying off-the-shelf boards that could function as stand-ins for mendel-motherboards and stepper-controllers. The local suppliers quoted me approx 700USD (6000ZAR), for a 4 axis-controller board. Compare that price with, the individual parts for Mendel motherboard, sourced locally, which came to approx 20USD (between 150ZAR and 200ZAR). I think you agree that the route I followed was a no-brainer.
So, while you may not always agree that the RepRap philisophy is technologically as astute as it could be, trust me when I say, that for me it is a godsend!
Of course, this is a faustian bargain, in the sense that DIY electronics is an adventure in its own right.....but that's a discussion for another time.


Marius Botha
Pretoria, South Africa
[mariushermanbotha.wordpress.com]

Bureaucracy is the stultifying ...etc etc

Lovely.

With a large group of people, it's good to have some people trying to coordinate contributions. Casainho and Marcus have done good work on the wiki. Now they need to figure out how to integrate this into Mendel.

I'm not the Mendel integrator. Adrian tends to be, but he gets busy with research ...

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I think it is ready, looking at results NopHead, me and others got, using the same materials.
Before I approve the electronic schematics, I need to buy the components and prototype - I can do that, no need for money. But I can't find a good flat aluminium sheet, with all holes ready for resistors. - for sure I could buy that, BUT would be very expensive.
I think that a company should build and sell at least the mechanical parts, just like the ones of extruder -- task for a leader, go to talk with a company.

In terms of flat aluminum: this may be stupid, but since you probably have a mill/drill press: what about getting a ~1 cm thick slab of aluminum, and then mill or drill an array of pockets into the bottom to remove 80%+ of the mass.

Make the bottom look like a like a "Waffle". The extra ribbing will help give it mechanical rigidity, and prevent warping. And serve as a reservoir for delicious maple syrup if you choose to invert it and eat it for breakfast.

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Or take a thin sheet of aluminum and bolt it onto a few bits of angle iron or square rod. Use shim stock/washers to adjust the flatness.

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You may want to try sourcing your aluminum sheet by talking to a company that does waterjet cutting or makes faceplates. "Hey, I need flat 6mm sheet - who do you recommend I get it from" They may have more of an appreciation for flat sheet than your current suppliers.

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I'm sure a company will do it, after you do all the development work. So will the "I machine Mendel extruder parts" folk in the Sales forum.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... it's not only nophead going 'sidepaths'
>
> Like him, Forrest and me there are some other guys
> working with different setups, tools and ideas as
> they have other issues than the commom reprapper.
>
> My persomal position is mostly defined by the need
> for higher accuracies, different materials than
> plastic and some developments with noncartesian
> mechanics or assembling issues ...
>
> This would be really interesting for others
> sometimes too, but as the common reprapper goes
> the paths predefined by the initial setup and
> 'core-development', i'm happy fiddling around 'in
> the shadows' ><

Shadows are good! They're great places from which to jump out at the unsuspecting.

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

Forrest Higgs Wrote:
> ...
> Shadows are good! They're great places from which
> to jump out at the unsuspecting.

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Quote

Now they need to figure out how to integrate this into Mendel.

I am not sure it ever will be integrated into Mendel. It adds to the cost, makes it harder to make, reduces the self replication percentage and isn't required for self replication. I.e. it moves the design further away from its goals. It should just be a simple addition though.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I am not sure it ever will be integrated into Mendel. It adds to the cost, makes it harder to make, reduces the self replication percentage and isn't required for self replication. I.e. it moves the design further away from its goals. It should just be a simple addition though.

That can be the decision of the Mendel Working group or Mendel Integrator aka ?Adrian + Ed? or whatever.

Or even better, we carefully flag the Mendelized Heated Bed write-up as "Mendel Research" or "Mendel Optional" and integrate it into the rest of the Mendel docs, carefully flagging it "Optional", under the reasonable assumption that people want this thing.

We'll do the same thing with Mendel Apollo once someone demonstrates you can bolt a Dremel onto it. (And then do surface deposition manufacturing, PCB etching, etc)

There's no such thing as bad research notes on the wiki, only research that needs to be carefully labeled, integrated, organized, or extended.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

SebastienBailard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> That can be the decision of the Mendel Working
> group or Mendel Integrator aka ?Adrian + Ed? or
> whatever.
>
I'm afraid that Nop has it right. Adding more non-printable mass and volume to the Reprap machine doesn't make a better Reprap machine. Remember,RepRap is short for Replicating Rapid-prototyper. It's gotta replicate and it's got to get better at replicating. Otherwise, it ain't a Reprap any more.


> Or even better, we carefully flag the Mendelized
> Heated Bed write-up as "Mendel Research" or
> "Mendel Optional" and integrate it into the rest
> of the Mendel docs, carefully flagging it
> "Optional", under the reasonable assumption that
> people want this thing.
>
Again, I wonder if we ought to bother trying to follow all the speciation attempts that Reprap is already undergoing. Seems like a hopeless task to me.
>
> We'll do the same thing with Mendel Apollo once
> someone demonstrates you can bolt a Dremel onto
> it. (And then do surface deposition
> manufacturing, PCB etching, etc)
>
Apollo? They've already strapped Dremels onto several Rapmans {Darwin Clones}.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2010 05:58PM by Forrest Higgs.

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

This project is not yet at the stage where innovation can occur with everyone using the same setup, so any attempts to create that at this time can only stifle innovation.

We may approach a unified design, but it will happen organically, and trying to force it will just make it take significantly longer and irritate all those most able to contribute.

Commercialisation takes a totally different headspace from R&D and this project is still very much in R&D-land.

We already have leaders, and they're giving this project exactly what it needs at this point in time- zero interference in the vast amount of things being trialled and tested by anyone who has an idea they think is worth a shot.

True hackers never follow- they only reuse/reinvent work already done for them which can look similar up to a point. Any attempt to channel them into a single path makes some stop innovating and the rest leave, except for the one who would have carved that path regardless. Assigning someone for "hackers to follow" is a sure way to slowly kill this project.

Sebastian has drawn an excellent boundary of organisation without constraint and I applaud his discipline and dedication to this critical principle.

ps: the various discussions about controlling and managing this project send my wife into fits of laughter at the palpable fear of unconstrained evolution

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2010 08:55PM by Triffid_Hunter.

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Wooden Mendel
Teacup Firmware

I'm afraid that Nop has it right. Adding more non-printable mass and volume to the Reprap machine doesn't make a better Reprap machine. Remember,RepRap is short for Replicating Rapid-prototyper. It's gotta replicate and it's got to get better at replicating. Otherwise, it ain't a Reprap any more.

In other words, casainho's better RepRap/RepStrap feature set is not equal to your better RepRap/RepStrap feature set. No worries. I'm not sure I'll be able to lift my better RepRap/RepStrap once it has all the features I want bolted on.

I still think Mendelized Heated Bed is worth having up on the wiki in such a way that it is labeled as "Mendel Optional", and I'll do what I can to make that possible, while making sure not to interfere with other people's research.

I also think it may not be helpful if user-developer X complains in against "Optional" RepRap features that user-developer Y is actively researching, as it may waste X's time as well as Y's time. Hell, having user-developer Z say this is a massive talking shop that isn't getting useful RepRap work done may be 1) true, and 2) adding fuel to the fire...

RepRap work meaning research, new features, etc.

Adrian was blogging about color a little while ago. I'm pretty sure that will be fun to have up on the wiki. And I'm pretty sure no one is going to yell at him about it.

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Hypothetical: We design a cheap fast RepRap that doesn't need support material to self-replicate, but is utter crap at overhangs.
Query: Do we document the support material extruder? Or do we leave it off?

One answer might be: "Research it well, Document it good, Flag it optional." It seems to be the most straightforward and welcoming way to do it.

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Again, I wonder if we ought to bother trying to follow all the speciation attempts that Reprap is already undergoing. Seems like a hopeless task to me.

No worries. People who want to contribute and document their species or variation are highly welcome to do so. I'm here to help make that happen and make sure everything is organized and clear to new users.

On the other hand, people who want to police each other's behavior may have better things to do ... myself included - I'm off to see "Fantastic Mr Fox" in a few minutes.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

Thank you, Triffid_Hunter.

I have tried to avoid there being a "direction" for RepRap as much as possible. I would much rather there were lots of directions. A monoculture is not evolutionarily stable.

So - given that I am the leader - I regard one of my jobs as being to prevent leadership. I think that it is much healthier for people and groups to go the ways that they want to go.

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Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for your selves! You're all individuals!

The Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!

(Python - Life of Brian)

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If anyone wants to apply for money to fund RepRap activities, I will be happy to support them. But I will not be doing so myself in the immediate future. I am very grateful for the grants that we have had. But - as best I can judge - progress on this project (which has been significant) seems to be pretty much independent of available money or the lack of it. That - I think - is another of its strengths.

However. I certainly agree that we need to make it easier for anyone to submit patches, to upload new designs and so on all in a way that is simpler to integrate into the project as a whole. I will be blogging about that in the next few days.

(casainho: the latest Java host software that I put in the repository a couple of days ago does full support calculations automatically. Wiki and blog to follow.)

[www.youtube.com]

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

1st: For sure that I think Heated Bed is independent of Mendel, that's why is a module - working alone, not like Makerbot solution that is wired to extruder board.

Heated Bed is for sure an important evolution on RepRap, everyone needs/wants it as we can see on HopHead comments blog for that. Also Makerbot started to selling it.

I would prefer to buy from Makerbot as I did for electronics boards and etc, if I would believe on his solution for the heated bed, but no, it's far from perfect - NopHead heated bed is the best!

To help the RepRap users (and others), we need to document the Heated Bed and sell it, like Makerbot does. For me the problem is this one, no one is producing/selling, just documenting and that's not enough because almost everyone can't product is heated bed :-(


> If anyone wants to apply for money to fund RepRap
> activities, I will be happy to support them. But
> I will not be doing so myself in the immediate
> future. I am very grateful for the grants that we
> have had. But - as best I can judge - progress on
> this project (which has been significant) seems to
> be pretty much independent of available money or
> the lack of it. That - I think - is another of
> its strengths.

Ok, right. And what about working with Makerbot and other companies for them selling to us what we need, like the Heated Bed?

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

To help the RepRap users (and others), we need to document the Heated Bed and sell it, like Makerbot does. For me the problem is this one, no one is producing/selling, just documenting and that's not enough because almost everyone can't product is heated bed :-(

As soon as the Heated Bed Working Group signs off on their design, we can alert the guys in the For Sale forum, and our recommended suppliers: [objects.reprap.org] , and so on.

We = me, after you email me. Or we = you, after you autonomously decide it is ready.

The Heated Bed Working Group is in charge of this, but I can broadcast the Heated Bed announcement ("Docs are ready! Suppliers, fire up your webshops!") on the blog as soon as you guys sign off on it.

It seems like the next actions here are
1) Heated Bed Working Group finish research/docs
2) Request For Comments / Other folk replicate results / etc. (Whatever makes sense).
3) Announce that Heated Bed is stable and marketable.

I think that makes sense, but I'm not on the Heated Bed Working Group.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

SebastienBailard Wrote:

> As soon as the Heated Bed Working Group signs off
> on their design, we can alert the guys in the For
> Sale forum, and our recommended suppliers:
> [objects.reprap.org]
> , and so on.
>
> We = me, after you email me. Or we = you, after
> you autonomously decide it is ready.
>
> The Heated Bed Working Group is in charge of this,
> but I can broadcast the Heated Bed announcement
> ("Docs are ready! Suppliers, fire up your
> webshops!") on the blog as soon as you guys sign
> off on it.

Sounds a good idea :-)


> It seems like the next actions here are
> 1) Heated Bed Working Group finish research/docs
> 2) Request For Comments / Other folk replicate
> results / etc. (Whatever makes sense).
> 3) Announce that Heated Bed is stable and
> marketable.

If Heated Bed is important, than we need a front page with a call for developers/developers develop/improve/test it. That is important to work on 1 and 2. We will reach 3 later, in group.

Can you put at front page a notice for Heated Bed development page?

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

I think I'm going to do a blog post very soon for all the working groups looking for members. First I need to go clean up some broken wiki-pages.

As soon as we complete twiki->mediawiki (very soon now), I'll start showcasing the new research on the front page. For example, Heated Bed, Paste Extrusion, etc.

Greetings all,

It seems to me that one thing that the rrrf.org was doing awhile back (until Zach split off to do makerbot), was to make it easier forwould-be reprappers to get parts and materials from a single source, such as PC boards, stepper motors, plastic rodstock, and related mechanical and electronic components. Many of these things are hard to source in small quantities, so having somebody buy in bulk and re-sell in kits was, IMHO, quite useful while it lasted.

I've heard that makerbot was/is often out of stock (and possibly giving first preference to orders for full makerbots, which {IMHO} is their choice to do.) A quick look just now shows varying stock, depending on the item or kit. I don't know, one way or the other, whether they are/are not favoring full-makerbot customers.
Some individuals have stepped up and offered parts and(subsystem) kits, according to their interests and skills. Brian Reifsnyder's extruder hardware is IMHO a good example of this.
But getting all the required parts is still not very easy, and I suspect this is discouraging quite a number of folks. One could argue that reprapping isn't {and shouldn't be} for the faint of heart or faint of persistence. However, I'd like to encourage more people to give it a try, so I like the idea of either one-stop shopping, or at least few-stop shopping for reprap parts.

Iff would-be-reprappers are having trouble getting certain parts, perhaps the rrrf.org could again consider seed grants to facilitate the availability of kits and related parts that are hard to buy in single-reprapper quantities. One difficulty with anybody getting into this is that the design is rapidly evolving, but the sales rate are probably low. As a result, a batch of produced, kits is almost certainly not cutting edge by the time they're ready to ship. Entrepreneurs are understandably reluctant to pay for batches of PC boards, chips, or mechanical parts in big batches, only to find that what they've invented in has been superseded. It's not easy selling last year's (or last month's!) design -- or eating the loss of unsaleable goods.

However, the core team has some knowledge and control over how often official design generations occur. It seems that the electronics has iterated considerably more quickly than the mechanical design.
I'm not part or party to rrrf.org, so I don't know what groundrules they used when they were supporting the rrrf.org store. Some things I'd suggest (if rrrf.org were to consider going back to the pre-makerbot mode) are:

1. Any fabricated items' design's be required to be open source, with design info available archived somewhere at reprap.org

2. For non-custom-fabricated items (ICs, thermistors, etc.) the supplier info be either open-source or (at least) revealed to rrrf.org, with permissions such that if one "store" stopped supplying component X, then rrrf.org could try to get somebody else to continue supplying from the same vendor.

3. If rrrf.org were to support new suppliers, that the suppliers agree (as part of being supported) to keep prices either fixed for TBD time, or keep kit cost to TBD percentage markup for some agreed time period.

This might be stretching an analogy, but consider radiation levels, and their effect on mutation and evolution. Too little, and there's not much evolutionary progress. However, with too much radiation, so many mutations (AKA design forks) take place that survival of the fittest doesn't necessarily work well -- mutations often happen several at a time, and then determining whether an individual change is beneficial (or not) can easily get lost in all the din of ever-rapid mutation. One thing that seems to help many open-source software projects is a leader who keeps forking from getting so wild, that few can understand what all the variations do, let alone work on improving them.

---

Larry Pfeffer,

My blog about building repstrap Cerberus:
[repstrap-cerberus.blogspot.com]

Just curious -- What is the official status of the RRRF?

I thought it was useful resource when it was functioning.

Is it worth resurrecting?

-Tim

I completely disagree.

Most of the mutations are single person developments.

The only exceptions are RepRap, Makerbot, and Rapman.

All the rest are 1 man developments. If people are going to add to a project it's usually dirived from the 3 multiperson developments. Within those there is a lot of evolution. Reprap is mutating into a non bearing hybrid + a CnC hybrid + a micro hybrid. Makerbot & Makergear are mutating for the better Makerbot. Rapman, well they started out as a Darwin clone, and are turnging into a Makerbot clone with their new product.

BfB and Makerbot are the bright side of Reprap. How many people RIGHT NOW are printing Mendel? A fair number larger than EVER printed Darwin. Makerbot is working on Gen 4 electronics which will STILL support RepRap, and they have promised to keep stocking Gen 3 till no one orders it any more.

The state of mutation, and honestly reproduction are increasing almost exponentially at this point (watch thingiverse, and the for sale forum). 1 year from now RepRap is going to be a monster.

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

bothacker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just curious -- What is the official status of the
> RRRF?
>
> I thought it was useful resource when it was
> functioning.
>
> Is it worth resurrecting?
>
> -Tim

Still functioning from all I have heard. You can read the changes on their website. It's became MUCH more focused on R&D and less on product. Left that to makerbot and the rest.

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

> > Just curious -- What is the official status of
> the
> > RRRF?

>
> Still functioning from all I have heard. You can
> read the changes on their website.

Really? The blog hasn't been updated for almost a year.

-Tim

But at that time that's what they said. All of them are still talking in blogs and on video. Just go look. It's not dead.

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

I would like to note, that most of the contacts for assistance are broken.

It needs someone to head it up, like the great job Sebastien has been doing with the website and forums.

Also, its kind of interesting that the heated bed platform was the most recent major upgrade and the RRRF had nothing to do with helping it develop.

What happens when some guy has a great idea on how to improve the state of the art and doesn't have an established workshop or resources to craft and test their ideas?

I believe that is what the RRRF is suppose to be doing and is failing at.