Realism

There is no way a 3d printer can be constructed exclusively out of 3d printed parts, and even if it could it would be more expensive than other 3d printers already on the market. So what's the point? The stated goal of the reprap project is to build a 3d printer constructed of 100% 3d printed parts. I propose a new mission statement, that the goal of the reprap project is to provide universal access to 3d printers, in order to improve living standards across the globe.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2014 10:15PM by goldenmongoose.

In 1960, everyone believed that it was impossible to walk on the moon. It *will* happen some day, but probably require a breakthrough in materials science to print motors and electronics components beyond raw circuit boards.

Has anyone ever come up with an equivalent Moore's Law for 3D printers?????

Before saying this is impossible, look at:

[www.inventables.com]

Quote
vreihen
In 1960, everyone believed that it was impossible to walk on the moon. It *will* happen some day, but probably require a breakthrough in materials science to print motors and electronics components beyond raw circuit boards.

Has anyone ever come up with an equivalent Moore's Law for 3D printers?????

moore's law suggests something linear or close to it, we seem to have little bursts a long the way instead

---

-=( blog )=- -=( thingiverse )=- -=( 3Dindustries )=- -=( Aluhotend - mostly metal hotend)=--=( Facebook )=-

An organization is allowed to have more than one goal... While the 100% self-replecating printer is a far-off strech goal, the creation of a printer for the masses is a naturally occuring result along the way. This was what the GADA contest was all about, and a whole lot of good designs came as a result.

The self-replecating goal has been a driving factor in the search for a real, practical conductive printing material, which itself would be a game changer for all kinds of fields. Even with a conductive material though, there's not a way to print the semiconductors you would need for motor control without technology we havn't even imagined yet.

There's nothing wrong with having an unreachable goal, as long as you recognize the benefits gained from its pursuit.

Having one unreachable goal is fine, but having two goals that contradict each other is counterproductive. In other words, in order to have universal access, you need to drive down the cost to almost nothing, which is what's happening with computers as predicted by moore's law. Yet, if your designing a 3d printer to use as many 3d printed parts as possible, at some point it will become more expensive to make said 3d printer vs. another design with less 3d-printed parts.

I find the exercise of eliminating as many "off the shelf" parts and replacing them with 3d printed parts should be re-examined for the sake of affordability. I think we've reached a tipping point where this goal has become counterproductive to the more important secondary goal.

Ah, but having 3D parts equating directly to higher cost is a formula that's not going to be relevant forever. Once someone gets a filament maker, the cost to make filament from recyclable plastics goes down to pennies per kilogram. When filament makers become wide spread, then the dirt cheap recycling becomes the norm. When filament manufacturers have to compete against the option of recycling they either find a new business or lower costs dramatically.

It's only a matter of time before FFF printing becomes financially preferable over low volume off-the-shelf parts.

Recycling plastic degrades it over time, I don't care how insignificant it is I'm giving my customers as virgin a material as I can, the parts needing as much strength, and predictable strength at that, as they can get. I'd gladly give my spare plastic to people at the price of shipping, but unless plastic becomes re-extrudable many times more than it is I don't think recycling is going to be as viable as you are saying it will be. Chinese black filament already has a bad rap for printing with recycle materials being likely. Not sure how pure recycled filament will stand, I could be wrong, this is just what I see.
I get business where I am because I produce higher quality parts [and cheaper, but the quality is what really pulls them in] than other places or means they would have to accomplish their goal.

I've experimented with printing v-slot extrusions here and there. I cut the printing time in less than half by resizing the widths and setting a certain extrusion width so that the entire print was perimeters. Strong as anything, I had to fully bear down on a corner just a snap a part of that corner, using tools I might add. I haven't lost the idea of printing a printer, but until the ability to print the electronics comes around I'm waiting to go full in on the project.
I do think things have changed, many are starting to prefer quality over self-replicating, myself most definitely included.

Quote
Feign
There's nothing wrong with having an unreachable goal, as long as you recognize the benefits gained from its pursuit.

That's why the founders of the US stated "the pursuit of happiness" rather than happiness. I believe the journey to attain the impossible is what truly drives humanity. We want to surpass what is there. Look at the 4 minute mile. I think that had more validation as impossible than even the many opinions stated here. Have we really had an unbiased, scientific investigation saying it is impossible? I don't think the goal should be changed, I think we simply need to create sub-goals to get there. In my view it is not impossible, it is simply something we haven't yet comprehended.

---

Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

Quote
Feign

It's only a matter of time before FFF printing becomes financially preferable over low volume off-the-shelf parts.

If it does it likely won't be FDM/FFF type printing and rather some sort of resin/sintering process. Even then the process doesn't scale well. With low cost injection molding machines and tools that have good features for small batch molding will still offer advantages over additive manufacturing for anything over a few hundred parts. In the low cost consumer end it's much quicker and less expensive to used stamped frames and molded parts. Those kinds of machines can be built, even in smaller quantities for less than someone could build an i3.

Quote
thejollygrimreaper
moore's law suggests something linear or close to it, we seem to have little bursts a long the way instead

Moore's Law is exponential. I could wish that it applied to politics and economics too but in those fields it appears that there are other laws at work.

I try to use 3D printed parts as a cost reduction measure. It makes a lot of sense if you want to make your own printer or one for a friend. However, I would avoid 3D printes parts if I wanted to make a product. What I am saying is that the goal of making a cheaper more self-replicatable not is a good one.

Additionally, that is just my take. If someone wants to spend more to get a more self-replicatable not then that is also great. We are a community of individuals with individual goals. These goals can slowly add to the collect knowledge we will need to fulfill the RepRap mission. Basically, do what you want, have fun, take over the world.

---

ConceptFORGE
Wally, GUS Simpson, LISA Simpson, THOR Simpson, Sextupteron, CoreXZ

Even had we not gotten to the moon, many, many technologies today would be decades behind had we not tried.

The same applies here.
The end goal may not be achievable or practical, but the journey and what we learn along the way has already pushed 3d printing further than we would be, had that goal not been established.

As for the prices, you can build one for half what it cost just a year and a half ago.

That said, something many forget is that this an early, and very rapidly developing technology. It may seem slow to us, but in reality for such a groundbreaking technology, it's moving at breakneck speed. In 20 years it went from Nasa level, to where the average person can build one in their home for less than a months pay.

The goal of self-replication is just fad. Same as the moon. Do it just to say you did it. It does not 'help' anything in the end.

How about something different and original: Design a good printer. Instead of a bad one just because you can say "It self replicates, its a piece of poop, but it can make even more poop".

---

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Ha, that's good. The moon landing was a great accomplishment, coming up on the 45'th anniversary. Neil Armstrong, the first human being to set foot on an extraterrestrial body, was from where? That's right bitches, OHIO. But ultimately there's a reason we never went back. It's just a bunch of rocks and dirt. There's nothing up there worth the trip.

@Hazer: I sure hope that humans leaving the planet and self-replication isn't a fad. We can't really take on solar system sized engineering projects until we do both on a regular basis. There is no way to reach a Type II Kardashev Civilization without both.

It might be far from practical now but endeavors in that direction can hardly be said to not help anything. I like the saying "if you aren't screwing something up then you aren't trying hard enough". If we only do what the community accepts as good and practical then we will never progress. It takes crackpots doing dumb things like many of the printers in my signature to get us a little bit farther down the field. Remember, we are all individuals with individual goals. There is plenty of room for us all to do what makes us each happy while also adding to each other. If someone is shooting for self-replication then great. If you don't like self-replication that is also great. The beautify of this system is we all get to work on what we want to work on. Who knows... maybe a self-replication crackpot will come up with an idea that might help all the other sane individuals or the other way around.

---

ConceptFORGE
Wally, GUS Simpson, LISA Simpson, THOR Simpson, Sextupteron, CoreXZ

Quote
pbrstreetgang
Ha, that's good. The moon landing was a great accomplishment, coming up on the 45'th anniversary. Neil Armstrong, the first human being to set foot on an extraterrestrial body, was from where? That's right bitches, OHIO.

Yeah, but the sound stage where the whole thing actually took place was in Nevada.

Oh, and I'd be quiet about being from Ohio. It would be the first state that I would vote out of the union, and I've driven through Canada more than once to avoid passing through Ohio.....

Quote
vreihen
Yeah, but the sound stage where the whole thing actually took place was in Nevada. grinning smiley
Oh, and I'd be quiet about being from Ohio. It would be the first state that I would vote out of the union, and I've driven through Canada more than once to avoid passing through Ohio.....

Well now your just being foolish. We all know the moon landing was filmed on Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, not Nevada. Because that's were they stored the UFOs from the Roswell crash. But seriously, There is nothing you could possibly hate about Ohio. It's the most nothingest place on Earth. We have Amish people that use no electricity or technology. They literally work on farms and have done nothing ever. NOTHING. Forever. How can you be mad at nothing?

Quote
pbrstreetgang
But seriously, There is nothing you could possibly hate about Ohio. It's the most nothingest place on Earth. We have Amish people that use no electricity or technology. They literally work on farms and have done nothing ever. NOTHING. Forever. How can you be mad at nothing?

Because your "nothing" that I can't be mad at extorted $65 out of be at gunpoint on the side of the road several years ago. I was legitimately driving 62 MPH in a 65 zone, and they wrote me for 77 MPH because I had out-of-state license plates. (For those who have never had the privilege of being fleeced on the side of the road in Ohio, the choices presented to out-of-state drivers are to plead guilty and pay the fine by credit card on the side of the road, or else to leave your car on the side of the road and take a ride in the shiny patrol car wearing handcuffs to see the judge.) As Brock Yates said in "The Cannonball Run" movie, "On the bright side, not one state of the 50 in the union has the death penalty for speeding...but we're not sure about Ohio."

I'm working out a deal with Canada to solve the problem. First off, I'm removing the only thing in Ohio worthy of saving (the XB-70 Valkyrie) and relocating it to the NY Science Museum at the 1964 World's Fair site in NYC. It is period correct, and represents the pinnacle of aviation science at the time of the World's Fair. Then, I'm trading the entire state of Ohio to Canada for a 6-pack of Molson, a Justin Bieber CD, and the Edmonton Oilers' 4th round draft pick in 2017. That (and my $65) is about all it's worth.....

Quote
MrDoctorDIV
Seriously though, it seems people here take things way too seriously sometimes. It often breaks out into personal attacks or look at me's. We've lost the community driven aspect and turned to making things better for ourselves. At least, that's how I've observed things.

Weeeeee!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 10:27PM by MrDoctorDIV.

---

Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus