Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request?
Posted by ggherbaz
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Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 01, 2014 06:23PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
I just pick my fused silica (Quartz) tubes, i'm going to start testing tonight and I will post here the results. But just to start some few photos and the first promising thing I found, it is SMOOTH, I mean REALLY SMOOTH, the filament just slides inside without any friction at all. I was about to wait until all the parts I ordered came to start testing, but I can't wait.
Attachments:
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open | download - IMG_2014110156351.jpg (14.4 KB)
open | download - IMG_201411014435.jpg (21.3 KB)
open | download - IMG_2014110127377.jpg (15.7 KB)
open | download - IMG_2014110116298.jpg (24.3 KB)
open | download - IMG_2014110123532.jpg (20 KB)
open | download - IMG_2014110136355.jpg (15 KB)
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 01, 2014 08:25PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 564 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 01, 2014 08:53PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
Yes, I will sacrifice one of them, that was the whole reason of getting 2, I want to over tight the nozzle against it and see if cracks, I will simulate a Z crash and lateral hits, but it is solid, really strong. I'm planning on videotape all the tests.
First one will be thermal transfer 1 hour at 240 degrees at 5 minutes intervals.
Second test PLA melting and plug development (since I can see what's going on inside) .
Third one will be extrusion and retract.
And last one will be a full PLA print, 2 or 3 hours.
After that I will do the destructive tests.
First one will be thermal transfer 1 hour at 240 degrees at 5 minutes intervals.
Second test PLA melting and plug development (since I can see what's going on inside) .
Third one will be extrusion and retract.
And last one will be a full PLA print, 2 or 3 hours.
After that I will do the destructive tests.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 01, 2014 08:59PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 03, 2014 09:09PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 564 |
Any progress? In particular, I'm curious to see if the PLA plug slides on the quartz more easily than on polished stainless. Also, where did you get your quartz tubing? I'm having trouble finding any place that sells the right size (presumable 2mm ID, 4 or 6mm OD) with less than a $50 minimum order. I'm tempted to try my own experiments, although instead of threading the tube, I'd just use a high temp. adhesive and glue the tube right into the heater block.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 03, 2014 09:59PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 105 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 03, 2014 10:40PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
I'm printing right now with it, i'm doing a 3 hour print without any cooling, 1/3 way done and no problems.... It's cool be able to see the filament moving inside. The pipe was ordered from a vendor in Aliexpress. I already did an over tight test of the nozzle and didn't crack the pipe (not to desperate to brake the pipe yet), also once the print finish I will run a crash test against the part (re-print). The PLA moves like butter inside the pipe, no problems there.
I'm really exited about this material, works really good, I thinking on modifying my "clone" e3d v5 to accommodate this pipe for better cooling. once my phone is charged I will record some videos of it working. It is definitely a perfect replacement for the ss pipe but concern about price though.... from China an order of 100 will cost 15.00 each, which is not bad, but against 3-5 dollars for the metal one is not cheap.
I will finish all the testing and will post all the results, most likely tomorrow afternoon.
meanwhile take a look at the info supplied by the vendor:
[kfdown.a.aliimg.com]
I'm really exited about this material, works really good, I thinking on modifying my "clone" e3d v5 to accommodate this pipe for better cooling. once my phone is charged I will record some videos of it working. It is definitely a perfect replacement for the ss pipe but concern about price though.... from China an order of 100 will cost 15.00 each, which is not bad, but against 3-5 dollars for the metal one is not cheap.
I will finish all the testing and will post all the results, most likely tomorrow afternoon.
meanwhile take a look at the info supplied by the vendor:
[kfdown.a.aliimg.com]
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 03, 2014 10:45PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 03, 2014 10:55PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
Lobocnc,
My order was 48 dollars, and that will be the minimum for them. I left the middle of the pipe clear so I could see the filament inside, to have a better understanding of how PLA and ABS behaves (not to much to see.... plastic just swell), i'm debating now into design a more "J Head" style system or just go for full threaded pipe and use e3d upper body. I sent already just in case my design to the manufacturer for quotes, most likely individual parts this way will run in the 50 to 60 dollars.
My order was 48 dollars, and that will be the minimum for them. I left the middle of the pipe clear so I could see the filament inside, to have a better understanding of how PLA and ABS behaves (not to much to see.... plastic just swell), i'm debating now into design a more "J Head" style system or just go for full threaded pipe and use e3d upper body. I sent already just in case my design to the manufacturer for quotes, most likely individual parts this way will run in the 50 to 60 dollars.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 05:33AM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,381 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 07:01AM |
Admin Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 3,096 |
I can't help but imagining it breaking like glass just by how it looks.
Way too curious to see video footage of the filament moving through the quarts tube while printing!!!
Maybe it's nice to mark the filament with a black marker (on white filament) with zebra stripes, so you can easily see the filament moving?
http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
Way too curious to see video footage of the filament moving through the quarts tube while printing!!!
Maybe it's nice to mark the filament with a black marker (on white filament) with zebra stripes, so you can easily see the filament moving?
http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 11:05AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 376 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 05:53PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
Have good and bad news.
First the good:
1 works, and works really good.
2 As you can see from the photos, after 30 minutes the maximum temperature on the top of the pipe was 83 degrees without any cooling (I rerun the test for the next 30 minutes and temperature fluctuated between 80 and 83 degrees) .
3 No friction whatsoever inside the pipe, as you can see from the plug, you can push the filament in and leave it for a while and then pull it back without problems.
First the good:
1 works, and works really good.
2 As you can see from the photos, after 30 minutes the maximum temperature on the top of the pipe was 83 degrees without any cooling (I rerun the test for the next 30 minutes and temperature fluctuated between 80 and 83 degrees) .
3 No friction whatsoever inside the pipe, as you can see from the plug, you can push the filament in and leave it for a while and then pull it back without problems.
Attachments:
open | download - 0 min.jpg (20.4 KB)
open | download - 5 min.jpg (21.2 KB)
open | download - 10 min.jpg (20.8 KB)
open | download - 15 min.jpg (20.6 KB)
open | download - 20 min.jpg (20 KB)
open | download - 25 min.jpg (20.7 KB)
open | download - 30 min.jpg (17.2 KB)
open | download - self shutdown.jpg (15.8 KB)
open | download - plug1.jpg (33.1 KB)
open | download - plug2.jpg (26.5 KB)
open | download - 0 min.jpg (20.4 KB)
open | download - 5 min.jpg (21.2 KB)
open | download - 10 min.jpg (20.8 KB)
open | download - 15 min.jpg (20.6 KB)
open | download - 20 min.jpg (20 KB)
open | download - 25 min.jpg (20.7 KB)
open | download - 30 min.jpg (17.2 KB)
open | download - self shutdown.jpg (15.8 KB)
open | download - plug1.jpg (33.1 KB)
open | download - plug2.jpg (26.5 KB)
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 05:55PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 167 |
I really want to see how it performs without the threads, and see if the cost can be brought down by not having the threading.
Surely there is an adhesive that can be used if you select a maximum temperature. From what I've heard of the E3d, it's nearing perfection but still needs PTFE tube in the cold end to prevent Jams, the Glass being used instead would overcome this entirely? making it the best all around hotend?
Surely there is an adhesive that can be used if you select a maximum temperature. From what I've heard of the E3d, it's nearing perfection but still needs PTFE tube in the cold end to prevent Jams, the Glass being used instead would overcome this entirely? making it the best all around hotend?
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 06:02PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
The bad:
Didn't work as I intended to, it doesn't brake like glass, but almost.
First one was broken intentionally, as you can see was never used (should have waited a little), second one I broke it by mistake, it developed a leak (2 bad thing) and as I was cleaning it, falls from my hands with stepper motor and extruder still attached and hit of course pipe first. So I'm out of 48 dollars and no pipe to keep experimenting with.
Didn't work as I intended to, it doesn't brake like glass, but almost.
First one was broken intentionally, as you can see was never used (should have waited a little), second one I broke it by mistake, it developed a leak (2 bad thing) and as I was cleaning it, falls from my hands with stepper motor and extruder still attached and hit of course pipe first. So I'm out of 48 dollars and no pipe to keep experimenting with.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 06:17PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
Conclusions so far:
It is the perfect replacement for PTFE liner, it cannot replace AS- IS the stainless steel pipe, because it is delicate and because a seal between the brass nozzle and the quartz pipe is definitely not perfect.
I was left with a sour taste in my mouth, I should have ordered more to keep on testing, but I know now that I found the perfect material for PLA printing in an "all metal " hot end and that it can be used to real high temperatures.
Next order will be 4mm OD 2mm ID pipe to be set inside the ss barrel.
I know you guys were expecting more info out of me, but it will have to wait few more weeks untill I receive the new order.
But I will encourage anyone that wants to try it, to go ahead without fears. "IT WORKS "
It is the perfect replacement for PTFE liner, it cannot replace AS- IS the stainless steel pipe, because it is delicate and because a seal between the brass nozzle and the quartz pipe is definitely not perfect.
I was left with a sour taste in my mouth, I should have ordered more to keep on testing, but I know now that I found the perfect material for PLA printing in an "all metal " hot end and that it can be used to real high temperatures.
Next order will be 4mm OD 2mm ID pipe to be set inside the ss barrel.
I know you guys were expecting more info out of me, but it will have to wait few more weeks untill I receive the new order.
But I will encourage anyone that wants to try it, to go ahead without fears. "IT WORKS "
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 08:49PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 564 |
This sounds very promising. As Zerker mentions, it would be good to try without the threads. Not only do the threads reduce the effective diameter, increasing the stress, but the sharp grooves of the threads create stress concentrations that can be 3x as high as the stress of a smooth tube of the same effective diameter. In short, I think a smooth tube would be 3x to 4x stronger than your threaded test version. There are lots of high temp adhesives good up to 500C or so, so I think straight tube sections glued in place would be pretty economical (once you buy the minimum order of quartz tube...)
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 04, 2014 11:58PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 167 |
One thing I would note against the non threaded tube is that once you glue it in it's almost permanent.
If the glue can be dissolved with a solvent then great, however if it cant and you break the glass, your gonna need a new hotend.
an RP printed "Clamp" could be made that slips over the end of the metal cold end and the back of the glass tube to hold it in place with tension in the RP part instead of an adhesive?
If the glue can be dissolved with a solvent then great, however if it cant and you break the glass, your gonna need a new hotend.
an RP printed "Clamp" could be made that slips over the end of the metal cold end and the back of the glass tube to hold it in place with tension in the RP part instead of an adhesive?
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 01:29AM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 1,171 |
Quote
Zerker
One thing I would note against the non threaded tube is that once you glue it in it's almost permanent.
If the glue can be dissolved with a solvent then great, however if it cant and you break the glass, your gonna need a new hotend.
an RP printed "Clamp" could be made that slips over the end of the metal cold end and the back of the glass tube to hold it in place with tension in the RP part instead of an adhesive?
That is the same thing I was thinking. A mechanical fit so when the nozzle is screwed in place is squeezes tight against the end of the tube but inside a metal tube to protect the glass.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 06:23AM |
Admin Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 3,096 |
Quote
tmorris9
Quote
Zerker
One thing I would note against the non threaded tube is that once you glue it in it's almost permanent.
If the glue can be dissolved with a solvent then great, however if it cant and you break the glass, your gonna need a new hotend.
an RP printed "Clamp" could be made that slips over the end of the metal cold end and the back of the glass tube to hold it in place with tension in the RP part instead of an adhesive?
That is the same thing I was thinking. A mechanical fit so when the nozzle is screwed in place is squeezes tight against the end of the tube but inside a metal tube to protect the glass.
Heat up the heater block to a high temp, and put the quartz tube in the freezer. Then when the quartz is very cold and the heater block is very hot, they should fit exactly. Let everything heat up again and *wish* for a good fit without breaking the quartz.
You still won't be able to extract the quartz, but when it breaks, you can just break the leftover quartz pieces and they fall out of the heater block.
Then you install a new quartz piece the same way as the old way.
But! I think using quartz as a structural material may not be the solution, instead why not use it as a drop-in replacement for PTFE inside a SS tube? On the other hand, the new E3D hotend looks so promising, I'm not sure we need the quartz. The most interesting quartz feature for me was the 'see-through' process inside the tube, and if you use it as a liner, it's not see-through anymore.
http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 10:50AM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
I will post a new design I have in mind, I learned from my mistake, I'm planning on use cone shape ends, and a main body set in 3 pieces, brass heater block, middle quartz tube and aluminum top hold together with 3 spacers and bolts to prevent over tight and twisting. The nozzle will press against the heater block instead of the quartz tube.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 12:50PM |
Admin Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 3,096 |
Quote
ggherbaz
I will post a new design I have in mind, I learned from my mistake, I'm planning on use cone shape ends, and a main body set in 3 pieces, brass heater block, middle quartz tube and aluminum top hold together with 3 spacers and bolts to prevent over tight and twisting. The nozzle will press against the heater block instead of the quartz tube.
Did you also think of a Budah-style solution? (using three spaced bolts to 'pull' everything together).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2014 12:50PM by Ohmarinus.
http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 01:04PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 564 |
I did some rough calculations on an unsupported quartz tube (6mm OD x 2mm ID) and it looks like it can take a bending moment of about 20 in-lb. That is, if the distance from the nozzle tip to the cold-end base of the quartz tube is, say, 1.5", it would take about a 13 lb force at the nozzle tip to break the tube. This is probably OK for any normal printing (and normal printing mishaps like running into stray chunks of filament) but it would be vulnerable to accidental bumps, like whacking the hot end with your part as you break it off the table.
If you go to an 8mm OD, 2mm ID tube, however, the max. bending moment goes up to about 55 in-lb (or a 36 lb lateral tip force), which I'd be more comfortable with. The thermal conductivity of this thicker walled tube is higher, but it is still close to that of a thin-walled stainless steel tube.
Note that all this is based on a bending strength of about 9000 PSI for polished glass tube. I discovered that any imperfections in the glass surface (eg, from grinding ,etc) will reduce the strength by as much as a factor of 7!
If you go to an 8mm OD, 2mm ID tube, however, the max. bending moment goes up to about 55 in-lb (or a 36 lb lateral tip force), which I'd be more comfortable with. The thermal conductivity of this thicker walled tube is higher, but it is still close to that of a thin-walled stainless steel tube.
Note that all this is based on a bending strength of about 9000 PSI for polished glass tube. I discovered that any imperfections in the glass surface (eg, from grinding ,etc) will reduce the strength by as much as a factor of 7!
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 04:04PM |
Admin Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 3,096 |
I'm suddenly starting to realize that there might be other materials useful for applications that work with heat. Such as... Thermosetting plastics. However, these plastics will degrade after long exposures to heat.
There is a new bioplastic available that might be a solution, called 'Glycix'. It takes Glycol and Citric Acid and a secret recipe
Okay, enough nonsense. Is there a video of the quartz tube working?
http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
There is a new bioplastic available that might be a solution, called 'Glycix'. It takes Glycol and Citric Acid and a secret recipe
Okay, enough nonsense. Is there a video of the quartz tube working?
http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 05, 2014 04:48PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 135 |
Actually, I'm thinking of a ceramic disk that both the cold and hot ends bolt to which has a hole in the middle for an unthreaded quartz tube. Having the ceramic sandwiched between the hot and cold ends could insulate the cold end even further and give some extra structural support for the quartz.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 06, 2014 09:56AM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 903 |
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 06, 2014 05:37PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
Unfortunately there is no videos of it working, my phone was out of battery and didn't thought that by the time I was ready to, my 2 pipes were broken...
Using ceramic connectors will defeat the purpose of a minimum part count and reduced TC, i'm planning on chamfer both ends of the pipe and top aluminum (j head connection) and bottom brass heater block, top and bottom parts will hold the quartz pipe under pressure and both will be connected with a open SS pipe.
Here is when I will ask for some help:
If anyone have access to a cnc machine and want to help me with my design, I can supply all material required and whatever "decent" fee for the job, I was just quoted from China for 2 (only 2) heater blocks for 120 dollars, and 40 for 2 top connector, not counting yet the metal middle tube and new quartz tubes, this will put 2 for 240 dollars (120 each) if I can get it down to 70~80 each will be great.
Using ceramic connectors will defeat the purpose of a minimum part count and reduced TC, i'm planning on chamfer both ends of the pipe and top aluminum (j head connection) and bottom brass heater block, top and bottom parts will hold the quartz pipe under pressure and both will be connected with a open SS pipe.
Here is when I will ask for some help:
If anyone have access to a cnc machine and want to help me with my design, I can supply all material required and whatever "decent" fee for the job, I was just quoted from China for 2 (only 2) heater blocks for 120 dollars, and 40 for 2 top connector, not counting yet the metal middle tube and new quartz tubes, this will put 2 for 240 dollars (120 each) if I can get it down to 70~80 each will be great.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 06, 2014 05:51PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,381 |
Idea: Example: some resistance heaters are clamped in place with a bolt passing through a slot. Why not slot the hole that holds/locates the glass tube in the heater block, add some waterglass (Sodium Silicate) to seal it, note it swells with heat so a little goes a long ways, and clamp it. I think the hoop stress, and adhesive properties of the waterglass will be sufficient to hold the glass tube in place, and not leak. Place a piece of filament, or some thing larger in diameter, in side the tube while the water glass cures.
Post a pic of what you plan to make, as I'm not sure exactly what you're planning on doing. I'll make some cad drawings for you if I think I can simplify it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2014 05:53PM by A2.
Post a pic of what you plan to make, as I'm not sure exactly what you're planning on doing. I'll make some cad drawings for you if I think I can simplify it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2014 05:53PM by A2.
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 06, 2014 10:31PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,401 |
here is my idea of the hot end I want to built, please help me out get it right before I spend the money making it.
Thanks
Thanks
Attachments:
open | download - Qz hb.stl (387.7 KB)
open | download - Qz mb.stl (125.3 KB)
open | download - Qz qt.stl (168.1 KB)
open | download - Qz tb.stl (193.5 KB)
open | download - qz hot end1.jpg (239.6 KB)
open | download - qz hot end2.jpg (208.9 KB)
open | download - qz hot end3.jpg (230.5 KB)
open | download - Qz hb.stl (387.7 KB)
open | download - Qz mb.stl (125.3 KB)
open | download - Qz qt.stl (168.1 KB)
open | download - Qz tb.stl (193.5 KB)
open | download - qz hot end1.jpg (239.6 KB)
open | download - qz hot end2.jpg (208.9 KB)
open | download - qz hot end3.jpg (230.5 KB)
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Re: Quartz tube test will begin tonight, any test request? November 06, 2014 10:37PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 20 |
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