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What if we were to press the RESET Button

Posted by RepRap Central 
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RepRap Central
What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 30, 2015 06:50AM
What if we were to press the RESET button and rethink everything in layers.

If we print entire layers at a time rather than spend our time constructing each layer then we'll change the way the majority of the Worlds 3d printers operate.

Negating the need for x and y axis may lead us to an ever closer self replicating 3d printer

Please see [reprapcentral.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2015 06:54AM by RepRap Central.
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 30, 2015 08:03AM
Interesting site, 'reprapcentral'... But what's Reprap about it? In almost every post you mention Makerbot.

I remember reading an article about you.. So I did a quick check:
"Peter Ormond, founder of Reprap Central, is based at the QuickStore offices in Saltash and is the only UK distributor for American MakerBot Replicator machines."
(http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Printing/story-19973012-detail/story.html)

However, I don't want to put a bad vibe around here, I like your idea for the printer, it's a bit like an SLA printer, but then with plastic filaments if I understand correctly?

Do you already have ideas how this could work, or is this a completely open idea where you expect others to simply introduce good ideas? I have been thinking about it, but I can't really come up with anything useful smiling smiley


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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2015 10:46AM by DeuxVis.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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RepRap Central
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 30, 2015 08:36AM
Started with RepRaps, Adrian and Team doing a great job with them going forward. Have a few ideas on this but think the change could be so significant that it's worth pursuing at all levels. It does require a reset in our thinking but standing back the end results could be quite something. Something very positive we can all get our teeth into!
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 30, 2015 12:51PM
Yeah I agree, I see a lot of small improvements on the printers but a lot of it is details or small additions. A new approach of the FFF technique could definitely be something worth researching.

I have a few ideas but they have to be developed further before sharing. One of them involves the use of static electricity.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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VDX
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 30, 2015 01:09PM
... I was thinking about "fused layer printing" for higher fabbing speeds and as follow-up to the LOM concept some ten years ago and made tests with 'prefabbed' sheets of green ceramic and metal paste ... only to find out, that this was the core technology of Via for their multilayer modules eye popping smiley

The main benefit would be, that you only have to handle single layers (much simpler mechanics) - and that you can speed-up the overall fabbing time by multiplies of involved printers -- and that you can print with colour or material mix without problems (but then with really complex fusing technologies winking smiley)

So yes, the idea is really good ... but not new -- so you can check for LOM and multilayer-sensors to find related usefull ideas, materials and methods ...

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
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Mutley3D
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 31, 2015 01:27PM
OK I'm missing something here. If you could print a whole layer of plastic in one shot.....

wow nice prices on filament at reprapcentral too smiling smiley
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RepRap Central
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 31, 2015 03:37PM
Worth giving this some serious thought, if it does prove to be the way to go, then most RepRap printers along with 95% of the Worlds 3D Printers could become obsolete virtually overnight. Why? The speed differential would be so great.
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Mutley3D
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 31, 2015 07:35PM
a one shot per layer printer im my view is impossible or cost prohibitive, unless your in the matrix smiling smiley

As someone above mentioned, there are other areas that can be improved/refined, but a full reset of implementation? I dont see it. Sorry to be negative but i think this is unrealistic.

Id equate the one shot per layer idea as similar to the difference between a car with wheels, and one that hovers 6 inches above the ground without any external assistance/equipment. In the movies, anything is possible but its not real life.

Id be happy to eat my hat if someone prove me wrong.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2015 07:36PM by Mutley3D.
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Miertam
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
January 31, 2015 11:56PM
Quote
Mutley3D
a one shot per layer printer im my view is impossible or cost prohibitive, unless your in the matrix smiling smiley

As someone above mentioned, there are other areas that can be improved/refined, but a full reset of implementation? I dont see it. Sorry to be negative but i think this is unrealistic.

Id equate the one shot per layer idea as similar to the difference between a car with wheels, and one that hovers 6 inches above the ground without any external assistance/equipment. In the movies, anything is possible but its not real life.

Id be happy to eat my hat if someone prove me wrong.

You might be able to do something with a grid of hotends that could be opened and closed. The problems with this approch are,1 it would be very hard to control the flow of molten plastic resulting in really rough edges. 2 You would have to heat up the entire build area to the plastic melting temp This could be very dangerous and expensive too boot. 3 Feeding such a system would be it's own nightmare

Thanks Mike
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Zerker
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 03:50AM
well, I'd look at this idea more like the difference between a laser printer and a dot matrix printer.
instead of one line at a time............... print an entire layer in one shot.

A laser printer uses electrical charges to adhear small particles of coated ink to a drum and them rolls that across a peice of paper then melts the coating off leaving the ink behind.

I'm pretty sure we could get granules of plastic stuck to a drum staticly and roll the drum over a bed laying down one layer at a time. start with a coarse resolution to work out the mechanics, and then narrow down on resolution

what would be hard, is overhangs and bridging, still for speed, printing one layer at a time with no overhangs and bridges would be a huge leap forward.

the resolution will be as high as we can make consistant small particles of plastic and as fine as we can charge the drum with the laser
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RepRap Central
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 04:59AM
Mutley3D, Agree it would be difficult, but not impossible. Check out the Hendo Hoverboard, just the first stage of evolution. Keep your hat handysmiling smiley
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RepRap Central
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 05:10AM
Mike,

'You might be able to do something with a grid of hotends that could be opened and closed'

That's certainly one of many approaches considered, maybe you'd change the configuration? Could be be the additional comments mentioned are just technical issues to be overcome?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2015 05:30AM by RepRap Central.
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RepRap Central
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 05:18AM
Zerker,

Your already thinking of possible solutions, could still include Support in the layers!
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 06:53AM
I was thinking of combining a CNC mill and a large-nozzle hotend (nozzle size above 2mm).

This way you can print large blocks/chunks of a certain plastic and afterwards shape it with the CNC mill. Should be hard to do since it needs to be at least a 5-axis CNC mill, and the plastic is thermo-softening which means your mill tools will get gunked up by plastic pretty fast.

Ohwell, keep on thinking.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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cat.farmer
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 08:59AM
Interesting idea. As laser toner is mostly plastic the mechanism to create the layer is already there. you would need to find a way to accurately lay the layers on top of each other and fuse them as they go.

There are a few high end devices that use Xerox's solid ink print head, they lay down (I think) 250 lines per head, not using plastic, more of a wax resin.
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 09:17AM
Quote
cat.farmer
Interesting idea. As laser toner is mostly plastic the mechanism to create the layer is already there. you would need to find a way to accurately lay the layers on top of each other and fuse them as they go.

There are a few high end devices that use Xerox's solid ink print head, they lay down (I think) 250 lines per head, not using plastic, more of a wax resin.

Canon/Océ are also making a 'relief printer'. I've been at a demonstration. It doesn't do high layers, and it's more of a gimmick if you ask me, but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Ano
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 09:51AM
Wouldn't be a resin printer be better? Put an LCD-like device unter the tank and light up the form of one layer, then pull it up and the next layer follows. Could do the whole layer in one step

Prusa i3 Rework (from Replikeo.com) & original Prusa i3 MK2 (from shop.prusa3d.com) << the MK2 definitely is worth the higher cost!
Print Troubleshooting Guide // Visual troubleshooting guide
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 10:12AM
Quote
Ano
Wouldn't be a resin printer be better? Put an LCD-like device unter the tank and light up the form of one layer, then pull it up and the next layer follows. Could do the whole layer in one step

First of all, already exists: SLA printers.

Second of all, the whole idea is that you use plastics.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Ano
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 11:07AM
Ah, yeah, ok^^
Well change a bit of the idea to: Use a really hot LCD-like device and melt the plastic with it, instead of exposing resin.
You won't be able to use filament, though.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2015 11:24AM by Ano.

Prusa i3 Rework (from Replikeo.com) & original Prusa i3 MK2 (from shop.prusa3d.com) << the MK2 definitely is worth the higher cost!
Print Troubleshooting Guide // Visual troubleshooting guide
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 12:07PM
Hmm, something like plastic powder could be used winking smiley But the heat would be hard to contain, as with heat you have:

- Advection
- Conduction
- Convection
- Radiation

It would be hard to get the heat exactly where it should be. maybe have a build plate with thousands of tiny nodes that heat up where the plastic needs to melt? grinning smiley

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Ano
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 12:47PM
Something with power already exists. They use Lasers to melt the powder (or grain) on one spot. A laser is a great way, because switched off, it is instantely "cold". When you try to melt
plastic with a hot surface, you need to wait until it's cold to make the next layer. A pretty strong light source could be used...

Prusa i3 Rework (from Replikeo.com) & original Prusa i3 MK2 (from shop.prusa3d.com) << the MK2 definitely is worth the higher cost!
Print Troubleshooting Guide // Visual troubleshooting guide
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 01:00PM
Quote
Ano
Something with power already exists. They use Lasers to melt the powder (or grain) on one spot. A laser is a great way, because switched off, it is instantely "cold". When you try to melt
plastic with a hot surface, you need to wait until it's cold to make the next layer. A pretty strong light source could be used...

They already have printers that even use a laser coming from the middle of the printer, so they turn the laser to draw the picture, instead of moving it in x-y over the build surface. However, maybe it's possible to make a special beamer that doesn't just beam an image, but beams a different wavelength, very high power, so it cures extra fast. However, this will be a very dangerous machine for ordinary people.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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Mutley3D
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 01, 2015 02:00PM
Hendo Hoverboard requires a ferrous floor to create magentic field and has no directional stability and principally never will unless it has a track, in which case it then becomes a maglev board since this is all it is.

Life mimics art...

a grid array if 200x200 nozzles however for example would simply create hundreds of tiny pillars.

maybe the roller principle has some merit.
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Dust
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 02, 2015 01:56AM
This is why DLP printers where invented...

They print an entire layer in one go.
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VDX
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 02, 2015 03:39AM
... google for SIS-printing (Selective-Inhibition-Sintering) - it's a combination of powderbed-printing with an inkjet (salt instead of binder) and an aerial IR-heater for melting the topmost surface in one pass winking smiley

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
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Ohmarinus
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 02, 2015 04:07AM
Quote
Dust
This is why DLP printers where invented...

They print an entire layer in one go.

It's actually called SLA, and I mentioned this a few times already winking smiley

The method is SLA, the technique is using DLP projectors.


Quote
VDX
... google for SIS-printing (Selective-Inhibition-Sintering) - it's a combination of powderbed-printing with an inkjet (salt instead of binder) and an aerial IR-heater for melting the topmost surface in one pass winking smiley

This is what I was talking about:
[www.designboom.com]

Not SIS I guess, but still very interesting.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2015 04:09AM by Ohmarinus.

http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
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DonaldJ
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 05, 2015 01:23PM
This was a printer that printed a complete layer, using a wide roll of PVC film, but seems to have failed in the marketplace: [www.solidmodelusa.com]
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VDX
Re: What if we were to press the RESET Button
February 05, 2015 01:58PM
... this are the last 'remnants' of the LOM printer aera - they deceased after 1996, when SLA printing gone public ... until then most RP-projects were laminated paper, cut with CO2-lasers.

But this printing methode starts new with inkjet printing colour arond the contours of laminated paper-sheets, which are cut with a knife to create 'nearly live coloured' laminated 3D-objects winking smiley

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
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