Filament Storage Practices?

So, being new to this ballgame, I read somewhere that some of the plastics are hygroscopic. Anyone have a good list of which ones do and don't? And what do yall use to store the filament in?

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The 2 most popular filaments (for now) are ABS and PLA. PLA is more susceptible to moisture issues than ABS. Many people do nothing special with ABS though it's still advisable.

I use a very common method (from what I have heard) 5 gallon buckets from hardware store (I buy the extra screw on lids to make access easier) and a few desiccant packs thrown in. The buckets are also stackable so that's handy and most can store around 4-5 rolls.

The buckets are a nice idea. I was planning on putting rechargable desicant packs in. I use these in my gun safe as well as my bulk ammo cans:
[www.midwayusa.com]

When they turn pink, you just plug them into any 110v outlet (built in dryer heater). I use a simple dollar store 3 way extention cord and I can charge 2 at once on it.

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If You Can Read, Thank A Teacher. If You Can Read It In English, Thank A Veteran That's what you do in a herd: you look out for each other. - Manny from Ice Age

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I've seen a few entries on Thingiverse where people have installed small (25W) light bulbs into the aforementioned 5 gallon buckets in lieu of desiccant. Don't know if I would leave it unattended.

I like Werner Berry's idea from YouTube. He uses a large Harbor Freight paint spraying vessel as a vacuum chamber to dry/store filament.

Personally, I'm thinking that 3DXtech's Zip-Loc mylar pouches with a desiccant pack may be the the most practical solution yet:

http://www.3dxtech.com/5-pack-xl-ziploc-mylar-pouch/

I have several spools of factory-sealed filament that I'm afraid to open until I need them, and am hesitant to open my 5-gallon bucket to take out filament due to letting in more moisture. For my own comfort, I may be ordering some of those mylar Zip-Loc bags with my next filament order from 3DXtech.....

Ehhh.... I can name the polymers that are going to be most problematic.

Nylon, PET, PMMA, and Polycarbonate, PEG, and polyacrylates.

I've not heard of wide spread use of PEG, PET, PMMA, or polyacrylates, but PET is probably going to happen, and PEG and Polyacrylates are all water soluble plastics. Making their eventual use as a filament very likely because they can be used as a support material that dissolves with water.

Currently I store my stuff in a sealed 5 gallon bucket with modified lid. I have a valve from one of those storage bags that allows you hook a vacuum up to the bag. It's not a terrible strong vacuum, but it's not terribly humid here where i live. If I start printing more, I may also start adding a descant, but i don't have tons of filament and I don't keep what i do have for long periods of time.

Modifying the 5 gallon bucket is easy:
You need a drill, a hot glue gun, a hole saw attachment for the drill (around 3/4 inch... maybe a little bigger), a regular flat head screw driver, a pair of scissors, and a vaccum seal bag from walmart (or other big box store).
Cut the bag down so that you are only dealing with the vaccum seal. Pry apart the vaccum seal. cut hole in lid, snap seal back together around hole and apply hot glue.

If you think it needs more, add some silica beads to absorb moisture.

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vreihen
I've seen a few entries on Thingiverse where people have installed small (25W) light bulbs into the aforementioned 5 gallon buckets in lieu of desiccant. Don't know if I would leave it unattended.

I like Werner Berry's idea from YouTube. He uses a large Harbor Freight paint spraying vessel as a vacuum chamber to dry/store filament.

Personally, I'm thinking that 3DXtech's Zip-Loc mylar pouches with a desiccant pack may be the the most practical solution yet:

http://www.3dxtech.com/5-pack-xl-ziploc-mylar-pouch/

I have several spools of factory-sealed filament that I'm afraid to open until I need them, and am hesitant to open my 5-gallon bucket to take out filament due to letting in more moisture. For my own comfort, I may be ordering some of those mylar Zip-Loc bags with my next filament order from 3DXtech.....

Thanks for the 3DXtech link. Added it to my printer URL list. Been lookin for more filament suppliers.

Hey, got a link to that video from Berry?

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Qcks_
Ehhh.... I can name the polymers that are going to be most problematic.

Nylon, PET, PMMA, and Polycarbonate, PEG, and polyacrylates.

I've not heard of wide spread use of PEG, PET, PMMA, or polyacrylates, but PET is probably going to happen, and PEG and Polyacrylates are all water soluble plastics. Making their eventual use as a filament very likely because they can be used as a support material that dissolves with water.

Thanks for that list. That is the exact info I was craving. Is not PLA also hygroscopic?

I will be printing with PET rather soon I think. I am saving up PET myself for grinding and extruding (as well as other plastics like ABS and PP). And I too think the water soluble filler is a brilliant way to remove the fill.

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If You Can Read, Thank A Teacher. If You Can Read It In English, Thank A Veteran That's what you do in a herd: you look out for each other. - Manny from Ice Age

New to 3D printing, not new to 3D or tinkering. LulzBot Taz 5 Generic Chinese 50w 300x500 Laser Cutter/Engraver (Ebay:171066211150) Corel X7, Photoshop CS6, Lightroom 4, Modo, Hexagon, Bryce, Poser

Ehh... kinda?

The structure of PLA is such that it can react with water, but it probably doesn't do that too often on it's own. There's a small part of the monomer (the carbonyl) that can react with water, but the rest of the monomer is fairly hydrophobic, so it should be self limiting.

That said, PLA degrades.
UV light, Non-nuetral pH, Enzymes, some biological organisms(which directly degrade it...) can all alter the chemical and mechanical properties of PLA. These actions can make it more hygroscopic, but their activity is not limited to that.

Frankly, Storing PLA under vacuum is a good idea because it limits bacterial and fungal contamination, which is probably much more of a problem then people realize. Just because a bacterial or fungal agent isn't currently eating your filament doesn't mean it's not excreting something that's changing the way it acts (both chemically and mechanically), but that's me, and I have weird things to worry about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGNXHWPFAKo#t=541

FWIW, you can get generic Zip-Loc bags anywhere for a much cheaper price. I'm just a fan of mylar.....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2015 08:34AM by vreihen.

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Qcks_

Modifying the 5 gallon bucket is easy:
You need a drill, a hot glue gun, a hole saw attachment for the drill (around 3/4 inch... maybe a little bigger), a regular flat head screw driver, a pair of scissors, and a vaccum seal bag from walmart (or other big box store).
Cut the bag down so that you are only dealing with the vaccum seal. Pry apart the vaccum seal. cut hole in lid, snap seal back together around hole and apply hot glue.

If you think it needs more, add some silica beads to absorb moisture.

I am dubious of that whole thing to be honest. What you are doing to the bucket is virtually pointless and even could be detrimental.

Even a strong vacuum cleaner wll only pull about 3psi of vacuum. I mean really, if you are lucky you are only reducing the pressure inside that bucket by around 20%, if that. That reduction will do nothing to remove moisture inside the bucket. If you think for a minute you are removing all the air (or even a majority of it) from the bucket like it does from the bag, um, you are very mistaken. Your modified bucket and the storage bag operate on vastly different concepts.

If you tried to remove all the air (ie, full vacuum, 14.7psi down to 0psi), that thing would probably fold like a empty soda can long before you got there. If you were able, take an empty bucket, slap a lid on it and submerge it down to about 33ft in salt water. Of course you would have to weight it down with about 45-50# of weight to get it to sink (displacement of 5-6gal of salt water). Odds are, it would fold long before you got it to 33'.

At 33' (14.7psi) or one atmosphere, there would be nearly 1600# of pressure on the LID ALONE. And the sides and bottom account for probably 5x that. Even half way down, you are looking at nearly 800# on the lid. Unless you are working with extremely robust buckets, I would doubt they could support more than 300-400 lb before beginning to stress.

You would be far better off putting the spools in the bags and pulling a vacuum on those. They are not rigid and can collapse and thus evacuate a majority of the air inside. The bucket can't collapse (well not at these pressures anyway) because its ridged and thus your vacuum removes very little of the air.

In fact pulling a vacuum might even contribute to the problem. If the lid seal is not perfect air will be forced into the bucket (since the surrounding air is at a higher pressure) and bring humidity with it. You would be better off slightly pressurizing(1psi is all it would take) the bucket so outside air couldn't enter at all..

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2015 03:52PM by Wolfie.

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If You Can Read, Thank A Teacher. If You Can Read It In English, Thank A Veteran That's what you do in a herd: you look out for each other. - Manny from Ice Age

New to 3D printing, not new to 3D or tinkering. LulzBot Taz 5 Generic Chinese 50w 300x500 Laser Cutter/Engraver (Ebay:171066211150) Corel X7, Photoshop CS6, Lightroom 4, Modo, Hexagon, Bryce, Poser

I don't like the bags. I bought 20 of them but I am not very gentle with my stuff and after using them for a month I noticed the bags had holes in them from just laying around on each other. It's a messy way to store them and as soon as you get a pinhole they are no good.

I use cheapo silica desiccant off ebay and I can dry them in the same little toaster oven I use to dry filament (I hacked it with an accurate PID controller). These you could buy enough desiccants for 6 5 gallon jugs with what that one fancy plug in the wall one cost you, you just need to dry them yourself in an oven ($15 thrift store toaster oven will work fine).

I agree that removing air from a plastic bucket is pretty useless. I have a strong vacuum system I use for degassing silicone and it has a 1/2" thick polycarbonate top on it that bows inward 1/4" when in use. I can only imagine how destructive this would be to a cheap 5 gallon bucket. Any less vacuum would be pretty much pointless.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2015 06:45PM by tmorris9.

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Wolfie

Quote
Qcks_

Modifying the 5 gallon bucket is easy:
You need a drill, a hot glue gun, a hole saw attachment for the drill (around 3/4 inch... maybe a little bigger), a regular flat head screw driver, a pair of scissors, and a vaccum seal bag from walmart (or other big box store).
Cut the bag down so that you are only dealing with the vaccum seal. Pry apart the vaccum seal. cut hole in lid, snap seal back together around hole and apply hot glue.

If you think it needs more, add some silica beads to absorb moisture.

I am dubious of that whole thing to be honest. What you are doing to the bucket is virtually pointless and even could be detrimental.

Even a strong vacuum cleaner wll only pull about 3psi of vacuum. I mean really, if you are lucky you are only reducing the pressure inside that bucket by around 20%, if that. That reduction will do nothing to remove moisture inside the bucket. If you think for a minute you are removing all the air (or even a majority of it) from the bucket like it does from the bag, um, you are very mistaken. Your modified bucket and the storage bag operate on vastly different concepts.

If you tried to remove all the air (ie, full vacuum, 14.7psi down to 0psi), that thing would probably fold like a empty soda can long before you got there. If you were able, take an empty bucket, slap a lid on it and submerge it down to about 33ft in salt water. Of course you would have to weight it down with about 45-50# of weight to get it to sink (displacement of 5-6gal of salt water). Odds are, it would fold long before you got it to 33'.

At 33' (14.7psi) or one atmosphere, there would be nearly 1600# of pressure on the LID ALONE. And the sides and bottom account for probably 5x that. Even half way down, you are looking at nearly 800# on the lid. Unless you are working with extremely robust buckets, I would doubt they could support more than 300-400 lb before beginning to stress.

You would be far better off putting the spools in the bags and pulling a vacuum on those. They are not rigid and can collapse and thus evacuate a majority of the air inside. The bucket can't collapse (well not at these pressures anyway) because its ridged and thus your vacuum removes very little of the air.

In fact pulling a vacuum might even contribute to the problem. If the lid seal is not perfect air will be forced into the bucket (since the surrounding air is at a higher pressure) and bring humidity with it. You would be better off slightly pressurizing(1psi is all it would take) the bucket so outside air couldn't enter at all..

Uhh.... Air isn't the issue. Humidity is.

A slight vacuum, such that my bucket mod is capable of sustaining, is a very weak vacuum (maybe 1 psi). It might need to be refreshed every few days, but printing often prevents this from really being an issue.
The slight vacuum decreases the partial pressure of water surrounding the filament. Decreasing the partial pressure allows the water in the filament to take on a gaseous state (if it wasn't in that state already), and allows water in the gaseous state to move further from the hygroscopic plastics. This reduces both contact time with water and the concentration of that water. IE the humidity goes down in the space of the bucket.

Buckets are superior because the duration of time that they maintain reduced pressure is longer then a bag's duration, and it doesn't deform, which alters how far and fast the water can move during that time period.

If you're having water concentrate in the container, it's not an issue that vacuum will help. That's excess humidity and the only way i know of to prevent that is a salt lock. You intentionally don't use a sealed container, but the only way for air to flow into or out of the container is through a bed of dry salt(s). I prefer roasted magnesia, but warmed table salt works(not roasted) .

Now, if you're still wary of the bucket mod, you can get away with using the vacuum bags, unmodified, but you need to make it a point to use adsorption media like silica gel. The silica gel provides an increase in surface area where the water will collect after pressure is normalized, preventing the water from jumping back on the filament. Moving the silica beads/gel as close to the filament during removal of air is best practice. And so we're clear, I mean those little packets of hardened, silica that's in medicine bottles and other stuff they want kept dry, not bits of silicone caulk that you've ripped to shreds.

Edit: Also... i was not talking about a industrial vacuum pump. i was talking about a bag, produced by ziplock, for use with a household vacuum cleaner.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 01:04AM by Qcks_.

I had issues with this. The PLA made a poping sound when comming out of the print head and artifcts were visible on the printed part. I put the PLA roll 4 hours in the owen heated at 50°C with the door a little open. It solved the problem.

My rolls are now simply stored in a plastic bag with some silica gel. I haven't had any humidity issue since I'm doing it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2015 12:38PM by kr_.

PLA is one of those plastic that like to absorp water. If you really want to protect it then put it in a drawer full of rice. Rice has a property that sucks up water.

FYI! I haved put several of my (ABS and PLA) in the open air, it still worrks to print with them after 3-4 month with quite good quality.

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I use 5 gallon buckets with Gamma Seal lids (Link) which can be purchased at Lowes/Home Depot under alternative names and Amazon/U-Line and I place Eva-Dry 333 (Link) rechargeable dessicant packs in each bucket. The dessicant packs can be bought at the same places mentioned before. Expect to have around $30 per setup for the bucket, lid, and dessicant pack.

Edit: I think I can only get around 4 - 1kg spools per bucket, may be worthwhile to find 7 gallon buckets if you can.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 12:26PM by tjb1.

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Qcks_
And so we're clear, I mean those little packets of hardened, silica that's in medicine bottles and other stuff they want kept dry, not bits of silicone caulk that you've ripped to shreds.

Edit: Also... i was not talking about a industrial vacuum pump. i was talking about a bag, produced by ziplock, for use with a household vacuum cleaner.

Rofl. I know the difference between silica (SiO2), silicon (Si) and silicone (O_O).

This is NOT what I put in my gun safes

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tjb1
I use 5 gallon buckets with Gamma Seal lids (Link) which can be purchased at Lowes/Home Depot under alternative names and Amazon/U-Line and I place Eva-Dry 333 (Link) rechargeable dessicant packs in each bucket. The dessicant packs can be bought at the same places mentioned before. Expect to have around $30 per setup for the bucket, lid, and dessicant pack.

Edit: I think I can only get around 4 - 1kg spools per bucket, may be worthwhile to find 7 gallon buckets if you can.

Thanks for the link to the eva-dry. Looks the same as what the name brand one I been using is and its way cheaper. Win

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If You Can Read, Thank A Teacher. If You Can Read It In English, Thank A Veteran That's what you do in a herd: you look out for each other. - Manny from Ice Age

New to 3D printing, not new to 3D or tinkering. LulzBot Taz 5 Generic Chinese 50w 300x500 Laser Cutter/Engraver (Ebay:171066211150) Corel X7, Photoshop CS6, Lightroom 4, Modo, Hexagon, Bryce, Poser

Hefty makes a 2.5 gallon bag with a zipper that holds two spools of filament nicely. Toss in a packet or two of dessicant and you should be good. Or good enough...

I picked up 2 Home Depot orange buckets and a pair of the nice screw top lids. Just gotta get the eva-dry ordered.

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If You Can Read, Thank A Teacher. If You Can Read It In English, Thank A Veteran That's what you do in a herd: you look out for each other. - Manny from Ice Age

New to 3D printing, not new to 3D or tinkering. LulzBot Taz 5 Generic Chinese 50w 300x500 Laser Cutter/Engraver (Ebay:171066211150) Corel X7, Photoshop CS6, Lightroom 4, Modo, Hexagon, Bryce, Poser

Hey Donald,

how is your experience with the ziploc bags? Are they tight? I think it's a good idea. No supplier is offering its products in ziploc bags?

Falling the dessicant packs (spelling escapes me)
A bag of dried rice is also a very reliable and cheep alternative for removing water from the air.

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Austmannchemie
Hey Donald,

how is your experience with the ziploc bags? Are they tight? I think it's a good idea. No supplier is offering its products in ziploc bags?

I like them. I've been printing with ABS a lot lately, which isn't as sensitive to moisture as PLA. At least the bags keep the filament free from dust and other contaminants

I put the spools in the bags so the labels are visible; very easy to see the color and type. There are a couple of dozen spools stacked neatly aong a wall; takes surprisingly little room. You can put the bags anywhere you have a little space if you don't want to dedicate a larger area for filament storage...it might be like a treasure hunt finding the filament you want, though.

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Wolfie
If You Can Read It In English, Thank A Veteran

Here's how I rigged the filament spool feeders for my stainless Cartesian build. Air tight 2 gallon buckets from the big box home hardware store for the containers. The galvanized pipe stands have 1 1/2" ABS plumbing fittings screwed to the top of the pipes that seal up against the bucket lids. The fittings project about 2" into the bucket and the filament spools center on those. The filament uncoils up through a Bowden fitting at the top of each bucket and will run through PTFE tubes to the dual print extruders mounted atop of the gantry legs on either end of the gantry header. From there I'll use Bowden tubes to push the filament to the Cyclops dual hotend on the X axis. The buckets are cheap and air tight. I'll keep several desiccant packs in the buckets all the time to keep the humidity low. I'm thinking about adding a pellet extruder down the road and fill spare buckets for use without the need of spools. Turn a bucket upside down and feed the filament down through the Bowden fitting and then just let it coil up inside until the bucket is full. Once you turn the filled bucket right side up and mount to the printer as shown, it should pull cleanly up to the print extruder without tangling. I couldn't find clear plastic buckets in this size, so I'll probably try to add a sight window at the bottom edge of each bucket.