Help me figure reprap and it's choices out!
Posted by L4nce0
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 07, 2010 07:52PM |
Pricing
You can buy "almost-Mendel" kits that include all the parts but using laser-cut wooden parts in place of the original RP (rapid prototyped, i.e. plastic, usually ABS or PLA) parts for around US$800 plus shipping. The Mendel_Buyers_Guide page of the wiki is perhaps in need of an update, it doesn't yet mention sources like botmill.com and techzonecom.com and flemingcnc.com for these "almost-Mendel" approaches. I am calling them "almost-Mendel" in the sense that a "true" Mendel would have rapid prototyped parts, not wooden lasercut or CNCed parts). There may be other design differences, read up on each variant and what has been changed in it. Overall, the cost difference between that kind of Mendel kit and a Makerbot kit is not huge at all.
Creating kits and supporting kit builders takes time and money. Most of the folks selling kits and parts are doing it because they enjoy doing that, it is one way they contribute to this community. As far as I know, no one has (yet??) become a millionaire from selling Mendel or Makerbot kits
There are other commercial derivatives such as ShaperCube, but these tend to be priced higher still, perhaps because of their method of construction (plenty of custom aluminium parts).
Cost for a Mendel is only significantly lower that around US$800 if you have a friend who can print you a set of the RP parts on their own 3D printer and give them away, or sell them to you for only their cost of production. That is the ideal -- remember the "rep" in "RepRap" stands for Replicating If you have such a friend, and carefully source parts individually, you might be able to buy all the rest for US$400 to US$500, which is what the Bill Of Materials for Mendel tries to show. (There are some fledgling schemes to "loan" sets of RP parts for low or no cost, but these are just beginning to appear and are not yet at all widespread).
Choosing between Mendel and Makerbot (one person's opinions only)
Makerbot "cupcake" kits may be a little easier to put together. Makerbots have a substantially smaller build volume, so the size of the largest single part (or set of parts printed at one time) is smaller than you can do with a Mendel. That may not matter much for hobby use, but for production runs it might. Mendel is an open platform which is the current "state of the art" and is being improved and modified as the project goes forward, and for which experiments with new extruder and electronics designs (for example) are almost always going on within this community. There are a plethora of "alternative" firmware implementations for the common Mendel electronics boards out there, for the adventurous few who use them, too. A Makerbot is a commercial product, and is unlikely to change as rapidly, for valid commercial reasons.
There are apparently people who buy a Makerbot cupcake in order to print a set of RP parts for a Mendel, and then build that. Then they can (at least in theory) sell the Makerbot on ebay to reduce their total project cost -- but I suspect some or many who try this approach will end up keeping the Makerbot as a second 3D printer
Things to think about before spending scarce time and money on building a 3D printer
You're looking at at least 50 hours to build a Mendel, probably at least 40 for a Makerbot. Then you have the fun of calibration and adjusting settings so it works consistently and with acceptable print quality. If you expect to rent your machine out, ensure you set expectations of those renting it appropriately. It takes considerable time, willingness to learn, and some level of understanding of how it all works, to successfully build and use a Reprap, or a Reprap-derived, 3D printer at the moment. Things are rather easier now than they were a couple of years ago... but that doesn't mean it is now "easy" to successfully build and operate a 3D printer.
Summary
Welcome to the RepRap community. There are many helpful folks here in these forums (and in IRC on #reprap) who will do what they can to help you when you get stuck, if you do decide to go ahead and build yourself a Mendel or some variant of one. Without access to a source of free or almost-free RP parts, you will spend around US$800 or more to do so.
My personal opinion is that if you do not have the needed few hundred dollars up front, and so will need to get a loan for that, and then you hope to pay it off by renting out your 3D printer, that's a very high risk project indeed! You might want to consider being more patient, and saving (say) $50/month for ten months, while becoming part of a local RUG (RepRap User Group), and then build your Mendel when you have the $500 and some local Reprappers around you who can probably offer you RP parts at low cost. Your chances of a successfully completed project (a working 3D printer) that way are, in my view, much better (and worst case if you give up and destroy all your parts, at least you are not in debt!).
Jonathan
You can buy "almost-Mendel" kits that include all the parts but using laser-cut wooden parts in place of the original RP (rapid prototyped, i.e. plastic, usually ABS or PLA) parts for around US$800 plus shipping. The Mendel_Buyers_Guide page of the wiki is perhaps in need of an update, it doesn't yet mention sources like botmill.com and techzonecom.com and flemingcnc.com for these "almost-Mendel" approaches. I am calling them "almost-Mendel" in the sense that a "true" Mendel would have rapid prototyped parts, not wooden lasercut or CNCed parts). There may be other design differences, read up on each variant and what has been changed in it. Overall, the cost difference between that kind of Mendel kit and a Makerbot kit is not huge at all.
Creating kits and supporting kit builders takes time and money. Most of the folks selling kits and parts are doing it because they enjoy doing that, it is one way they contribute to this community. As far as I know, no one has (yet??) become a millionaire from selling Mendel or Makerbot kits
There are other commercial derivatives such as ShaperCube, but these tend to be priced higher still, perhaps because of their method of construction (plenty of custom aluminium parts).Cost for a Mendel is only significantly lower that around US$800 if you have a friend who can print you a set of the RP parts on their own 3D printer and give them away, or sell them to you for only their cost of production. That is the ideal -- remember the "rep" in "RepRap" stands for Replicating
If you have such a friend, and carefully source parts individually, you might be able to buy all the rest for US$400 to US$500, which is what the Bill Of Materials for Mendel tries to show. (There are some fledgling schemes to "loan" sets of RP parts for low or no cost, but these are just beginning to appear and are not yet at all widespread).Choosing between Mendel and Makerbot (one person's opinions only)
Makerbot "cupcake" kits may be a little easier to put together. Makerbots have a substantially smaller build volume, so the size of the largest single part (or set of parts printed at one time) is smaller than you can do with a Mendel. That may not matter much for hobby use, but for production runs it might. Mendel is an open platform which is the current "state of the art" and is being improved and modified as the project goes forward, and for which experiments with new extruder and electronics designs (for example) are almost always going on within this community. There are a plethora of "alternative" firmware implementations for the common Mendel electronics boards out there, for the adventurous few who use them, too. A Makerbot is a commercial product, and is unlikely to change as rapidly, for valid commercial reasons.
There are apparently people who buy a Makerbot cupcake in order to print a set of RP parts for a Mendel, and then build that. Then they can (at least in theory) sell the Makerbot on ebay to reduce their total project cost -- but I suspect some or many who try this approach will end up keeping the Makerbot as a second 3D printer
Things to think about before spending scarce time and money on building a 3D printer
You're looking at at least 50 hours to build a Mendel, probably at least 40 for a Makerbot. Then you have the fun of calibration and adjusting settings so it works consistently and with acceptable print quality. If you expect to rent your machine out, ensure you set expectations of those renting it appropriately. It takes considerable time, willingness to learn, and some level of understanding of how it all works, to successfully build and use a Reprap, or a Reprap-derived, 3D printer at the moment. Things are rather easier now than they were a couple of years ago... but that doesn't mean it is now "easy" to successfully build and operate a 3D printer.
Summary
Welcome to the RepRap community. There are many helpful folks here in these forums (and in IRC on #reprap) who will do what they can to help you when you get stuck, if you do decide to go ahead and build yourself a Mendel or some variant of one. Without access to a source of free or almost-free RP parts, you will spend around US$800 or more to do so.
My personal opinion is that if you do not have the needed few hundred dollars up front, and so will need to get a loan for that, and then you hope to pay it off by renting out your 3D printer, that's a very high risk project indeed! You might want to consider being more patient, and saving (say) $50/month for ten months, while becoming part of a local RUG (RepRap User Group), and then build your Mendel when you have the $500 and some local Reprappers around you who can probably offer you RP parts at low cost. Your chances of a successfully completed project (a working 3D printer) that way are, in my view, much better (and worst case if you give up and destroy all your parts, at least you are not in debt!).
Jonathan
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 07, 2010 10:21PM |
If you're a good wood-worker, there is also
[reprap.org]
But I agree with Jonathan that your local RUG is the best bet. Once you're up and running, you can sell / check in the bought /borrowed parts back to the ebay/RUG.
-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.
Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!
[reprap.org]
But I agree with Jonathan that your local RUG is the best bet. Once you're up and running, you can sell / check in the bought /borrowed parts back to the ebay/RUG.
-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.
Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 08, 2010 05:25AM |
Welcome to the forum!
I find it difficult to recommend one printer over the other, because I feel rather biased towards the choice I made, so I'll try to illustrate it.
Some people like to buy their computers pre-built. They want a computer solely to use. They often don't care much about the details of what's inside the computer case, as long as someone has put together software and hardware that works. They like the warranty they get, so if something goes wrong, someone else fix it for them.
Then there are other people, who like to build their computers themselves. They gladly spend a lot of time reading hardware reviews and comparing individual parts to find something that fits together and works well. They truly enjoy building the machine and tinkering with the hardware and software. If some parts doesn't fit together, too bad, they bought it themselves, and have to fix their own error. If something goes wrong, they have to know how to search for the error and fix it.
The price of the two machines doesn't necessary end up very different, though the performance of the latter often is higher. The difference lay in ease of use compared to future scalability and the users knowledge of the hardware.
Did this make any sense?
I find Mendel to be in the second category, as it requires a fair amount of commitment to research, reading and parts sourcing to understand, build and maintain. Then again, there will be a few bumps in the road, but the result and feeling of accomplishment is really rewarding.
The Makerbot is kind of inbetween. Perhaps more like a build-your-own-computer kit with pre-selected hardware? You know what you get will work, but the performance and scalability is a bit poorer in itself.
Anyway, personally I prefer to build my own computers. I also like case modding and generally building stuff, which often takes me to the hardware store where I love to wander around looking for stuff I can use. So I chose the RepRap Mendel because it's well, a RepRap. It self replicates and can print it's own spare parts and future upgrades, and it has a large build area. I enjoy 3D modelling as well, and have several ideas and plans for building a faster and larger RepRap. But I need to finish building one first
If there is no local user group, perhaps you can get your friends together and split the cost of the first plastic set among you, and then you help each other to print out more sets?
You can also do like several others, and build a Mendel from wood. I've spent about $700 in parts, (as well as $300 in new tools and PLA). http://reprap.org/wiki/Adesina_-_A_Wooden_Mendel_RepStrap
> Maker bot scares me in that it is charging 10 bucks per per LB. Online I see the rate is closer to 3 dollars per LB, making them extremely untrustworthy if they dare price gouge plastic that much..
Nothing to worry about at all! Makerbot are nice guys, and I think their prices are reasonable for high quality ABS filament which you know will work. Also, it's not like they are the only supplier, and they neither will nor can stop anyone else from selling it for a lower price. Then again, I haven't looked much at ABS prices or information, as I intend to use PLA with my RepRap.
I find it difficult to recommend one printer over the other, because I feel rather biased towards the choice I made, so I'll try to illustrate it.
Some people like to buy their computers pre-built. They want a computer solely to use. They often don't care much about the details of what's inside the computer case, as long as someone has put together software and hardware that works. They like the warranty they get, so if something goes wrong, someone else fix it for them.
Then there are other people, who like to build their computers themselves. They gladly spend a lot of time reading hardware reviews and comparing individual parts to find something that fits together and works well. They truly enjoy building the machine and tinkering with the hardware and software. If some parts doesn't fit together, too bad, they bought it themselves, and have to fix their own error. If something goes wrong, they have to know how to search for the error and fix it.
The price of the two machines doesn't necessary end up very different, though the performance of the latter often is higher. The difference lay in ease of use compared to future scalability and the users knowledge of the hardware.
Did this make any sense?
I find Mendel to be in the second category, as it requires a fair amount of commitment to research, reading and parts sourcing to understand, build and maintain. Then again, there will be a few bumps in the road, but the result and feeling of accomplishment is really rewarding.
The Makerbot is kind of inbetween. Perhaps more like a build-your-own-computer kit with pre-selected hardware? You know what you get will work, but the performance and scalability is a bit poorer in itself.
Anyway, personally I prefer to build my own computers. I also like case modding and generally building stuff, which often takes me to the hardware store where I love to wander around looking for stuff I can use. So I chose the RepRap Mendel because it's well, a RepRap. It self replicates and can print it's own spare parts and future upgrades, and it has a large build area. I enjoy 3D modelling as well, and have several ideas and plans for building a faster and larger RepRap. But I need to finish building one first
If there is no local user group, perhaps you can get your friends together and split the cost of the first plastic set among you, and then you help each other to print out more sets?
You can also do like several others, and build a Mendel from wood. I've spent about $700 in parts, (as well as $300 in new tools and PLA). http://reprap.org/wiki/Adesina_-_A_Wooden_Mendel_RepStrap
> Maker bot scares me in that it is charging 10 bucks per per LB. Online I see the rate is closer to 3 dollars per LB, making them extremely untrustworthy if they dare price gouge plastic that much..
Nothing to worry about at all! Makerbot are nice guys, and I think their prices are reasonable for high quality ABS filament which you know will work. Also, it's not like they are the only supplier, and they neither will nor can stop anyone else from selling it for a lower price. Then again, I haven't looked much at ABS prices or information, as I intend to use PLA with my RepRap.
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 13, 2010 05:28PM |
jmarsden I see answered that. Though that's pretty crazy! 300 dollars for the plastic bits? I mean I can see 100 + 50 for getting all the parts together / shipping...
That is how much people are willing to pay and how much people are willing to sell them at. Adrian sells the very occasional set at 60USD but that is something of a lottery.
You'll have to decide for yourself how much to sell sets for when you are up and running.
-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.
Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!
That is how much people are willing to pay and how much people are willing to sell them at. Adrian sells the very occasional set at 60USD but that is something of a lottery.
You'll have to decide for yourself how much to sell sets for when you are up and running.
-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.
Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 14, 2010 04:58PM |
OK. You can do plenty of highly relevant and helpful "learning by doing" without any reprap-specific hardware, just a PC... learn the Reprap host software; learn the Arduino IDE and programming language/libraries, if you want to do firmware changes, learn (multiple) 3D CAD programs (FreeCAD, OpenSCAD, HeeksCAD) and mesh modellers (AoI, Blender, ...) , etc. You can do all that with just a PC and an Internet connection. And some time
Jonathan
Jonathan
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 14, 2010 05:25PM |
Yeah, Sadly CU essentially said, were not going to share our toys unless your one of us. I'd like to shave as much off as I can... too bad the part's aren't just mounting brackets. I could then just drill into polycarbonate from my local plastic store. I have a lot of experience with that material. I emailed about 4 other universities. I don't think any except for CSM has one. Course CSM is more snotty then CU. Why are engineers so uptight? seriously lol, I'll pay >_>. Though the thought occurred to me... there must be ONLINE sources to order custom print jobs. I know a metal shop that would make a whole computer case out of metal for like 150 dollars, if I gave them the blue prints.
However part of me is just getting a bit frustrated. Maybe I'll just pay the high premium and save me a week of begging people to print these parts so I can save 100 to 200.
Just wondering.... what language is the software written in? Please say java or c/c++
However part of me is just getting a bit frustrated. Maybe I'll just pay the high premium and save me a week of begging people to print these parts so I can save 100 to 200.
Just wondering.... what language is the software written in? Please say java or c/c++
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 14, 2010 10:03PM |
If your campus has a laser cutter hidden somewhere, you can build one of these,
[reprap.org]
It may help to suggest a "group build" with whoever operates the laser cutter, and make two.
Also, it is not too surprising that you can't get any time on the engineering department's 3D printers, as they pay ~USD10/cubic inch for their plastic. (RepRap are a bit cheaper to operate, once you have one.)
But it may be easiest to build a "WolfStrap" or a wooden mendel, perhaps?
[reprap.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2010 10:34PM by SebastienBailard.
-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.
Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!
[reprap.org]
It may help to suggest a "group build" with whoever operates the laser cutter, and make two.
Also, it is not too surprising that you can't get any time on the engineering department's 3D printers, as they pay ~USD10/cubic inch for their plastic. (RepRap are a bit cheaper to operate, once you have one.)
But it may be easiest to build a "WolfStrap" or a wooden mendel, perhaps?
[reprap.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2010 10:34PM by SebastienBailard.
-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.
Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!
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Re: Help me figure reprap and it's choices out! June 25, 2010 01:16AM |
Why do I want the parts made out of plastic?
Mostly because that way you can use all the wooden bits to make another RepStrap.
Mostly because that way you can use all the wooden bits to make another RepStrap.
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